14:09:22 <bexelbie> #startmeeting fedora-docs
14:09:22 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jan 16 14:09:22 2017 UTC.  The chair is bexelbie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:09:22 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:09:22 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-docs'
14:09:25 <bexelbie> #topic Roll Call
14:09:36 <bexelbie> .hello bex
14:09:37 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bex@pobox.com>
14:09:51 * pbokoc 
14:10:00 <shaunm> .hello shaunm
14:10:01 <zodbot> shaunm: shaunm 'Shaun McCance' <shaunm@gnome.org>
14:10:29 <bexelbie> I'll give a min for others to join, however, I suggest we dispense with the regular agenda
14:10:57 <pbokoc> I was just about to suggest something along those lines
14:11:06 <bexelbie> has anyone talked to randomuser in the last week or two?
14:11:12 * bexelbie keeps missing him online
14:11:39 <mayorga> .hello mayorga
14:11:40 <zodbot> mayorga: mayorga 'Eduardo Augusto Mayorga' <e@mayorgalinux.com>
14:11:45 <bexelbie> o/
14:12:11 <bexelbie> shaunm, wanna lead us off?
14:12:19 <bexelbie> #topic Topic based writing
14:13:29 <shaunm> bexelbie: honestly, I don't have much to report.
14:13:55 <bexelbie> What are the next steps?
14:14:27 <shaunm> between me working on a different project, the holidays, the lack of doc meetings for the last month, and randomuser being busy with other things, there's been no progress
14:14:51 <bexelbie> ok
14:14:57 <pbokoc> we've talked about modularity and topics in RH, because we've been working on something similar for a while now. It's not much (we basically have some implementation details down but we're missing the big picture, at least from my POV)
14:15:08 <shaunm> should I just take a doc on myself?
14:15:17 <bexelbie> shaunm, if that is a good next step, yes.
14:15:32 <bexelbie> I haven't seen any discussion on the ml so I wasn't sure if there were conversations I hadn't seen
14:15:37 <shaunm> what I wanted to do was to coach somebody else through one document, but that seems to have led us into a schedule mismatch hell
14:15:52 <pbokoc> I have a mail ready that I was supposed to forward to fedora-docs like 2 weeks ago; I wanted to expand on it a bit before sending it out but I can't seem to get to it between my usual responsibilities
14:16:00 <shaunm> discussion on this mostly happened in an irc meeting in late december
14:16:02 <pbokoc> so I suppose I'll just send it and talk more about it later...
14:16:34 <mayorga> !
14:16:44 <bexelbie> shaunm, perhaps it would be useful to send a summary email out and then we can figure it out
14:16:47 <bexelbie> go for it mayorga
14:16:54 <bexelbie> with this small group, no need for formality
14:17:02 <bexelbie> pbokoc +1 to send it
14:17:19 <mayorga> I was wondering if the Installation Guide has already been taken for conversion…
14:17:29 <mayorga> Otherwise, I'd like to help with that.
14:18:32 <pbokoc> mayorga, the problem with the install guide is that the sources are also being used within anaconda as built-in help, and I'll have to figure out how to preserve that post-conversion
14:18:35 <shaunm> Installation Guide isn't a good test bed for topic-oriented
14:19:37 <pbokoc> another problem is, we should ideally have some kind of a "map" of topics we want to cover, separated by type (procedure/reference/concept - more on that in the mail I'll send to docs@ shortly)
14:20:13 <pbokoc> and their relationships (how do they link to each other), and their priorities... but that's going to be a pretty monumental undertaking
14:20:14 <bexelbie> mayorga, would you be willing to work on a different book?
14:20:21 <mayorga> bexelbie: Sure.
14:20:21 <bexelbie> shaunm, you and mayorga are close in timezone, I think
14:21:16 <shaunm> are we? I'm US eastern
14:21:27 <linuxmodder> .fas linuxmodder
14:21:28 <zodbot> linuxmodder: linuxmodder 'Corey W Sheldon' <sheldon.corey@openmailbox.org>
14:21:30 * mayorga on UTC-6.
14:21:31 <linuxmodder> late
14:22:05 <linuxmodder> re: randomuser  he was in fedora the other day
14:22:08 <shaunm> so, yeah, one hour off
14:22:27 <bexelbie> linuxmodder, cool - I keep missing him ty
14:22:36 <bexelbie> shaunm, mayorga does this represent a way forward?
14:22:47 <linuxmodder> bexelbie,  same here but I log channels and remember seeing him in passing
14:23:01 * linuxmodder reading scrollback
14:23:36 <mayorga> bexelbie: Yeah… But what book would be good then? :-)
14:23:45 <linuxmodder> shaunm,  re: install-guide why not?
14:24:41 <Southern_Gentlem> the sys-admin guide would be good to get out of draft
14:25:10 <linuxmodder> been looking at that one in bursts Southern_Gentlem
14:25:37 <linuxmodder> if someone else that is not necesarily  tech but great editor wants to tag team it with me
14:25:58 <linuxmodder> or the security-guide
14:26:04 <shaunm> linuxmodder: because the material is inherently mostly linear, so it doesn't really exercise the differences
14:26:21 <linuxmodder> well fair enough then
14:26:37 <mayorga> Yeah, makes sense to me.
14:27:18 <linuxmodder> anyone wanna tag team sys-admin or security-guide with me
14:27:36 <shaunm> not that it shouldn't be done. if anybody wants to work on it, by all means do it
14:28:35 <bexelbie> shaunm, sounds like between mayorga and linuxmodder you've got folks wanting to do this
14:28:42 <mayorga> linuxmodder: sys-admin sounds great!
14:29:03 <mayorga> Let's team up.
14:29:16 <shaunm> \o/
14:29:26 <linuxmodder> bexelbie,  I only have issues with timing
14:29:33 <linuxmodder> mayorga,  noted
14:29:49 <linuxmodder> I'll git pull the latest commits and get on it
14:30:03 <linuxmodder> #action linuxmodder + mayorga  to work on sys-admin guide
14:30:12 <bexelbie> linuxmodder, are you and shaunm approaching topics the same way ?
14:30:19 <bexelbie> + mayorga to above
14:30:26 <linuxmodder> bexelbie,  meaning ?
14:31:19 <linuxmodder> I'm more a technical edit type I don't have aversion to editing for grammar and such but its not my first choice if that is what you mean
14:31:56 <shaunm> mayorga: so what does your schedule look like for working on this stuff
14:32:09 <shaunm> I'd like to be side-by-side with you on irc whenever you're able to put in time
14:32:14 <bexelbie> shaunm, can you explain your goals and how we can work with a technical edit at the same time?
14:32:30 <bexelbie> linuxmodder, I am in favor of a technical edit for sure - but we also need to think about topics
14:32:39 <bexelbie> less grammar and more style, pending what shaunm says
14:32:47 <bexelbie> which doesn't mean we shoudl block either
14:33:13 <linuxmodder> bexelbie,  lost me
14:33:21 <mayorga> shaunm: I'm on college break for one more month so I'm flexible. One hour a day could be fine.
14:33:32 <linuxmodder> by technical I mean best practice and relevant to the SUPPORTED Version
14:33:43 <mayorga> bexelbie: Got it.
14:33:58 <bexelbie> linuxmodder, I am hoping shaunm will add stuff here
14:34:05 <linuxmodder> bexelbie,  so what other topics did you have in mind for adding to sys-admin
14:34:18 <bexelbie> linuxmodder, it is breaking the book into topics - it is what shaunm is working on
14:34:22 <linuxmodder> or a add/remove kind of  review
14:35:00 <linuxmodder> ah then shaunm  let me know how oyu wanna break it out then I'll review content for technical sanity I hate doing breakouts
14:35:14 <bexelbie> shaunm, ^^
14:35:48 <shaunm> yeah, trying to figure out how to explain without flooding irc
14:36:18 <shaunm> the general goal is that you have standalone topics, each of which addresses a specific thing a user wants to accomplish
14:36:58 <linuxmodder> shaunm,  as a full breakout that sources the sys-admin guide itself ?
14:37:14 <linuxmodder> like  a wiki link inside in a 'read more' fashion?
14:40:02 <bexelbie> shaunm, ?
14:40:45 <shaunm> generally, one page addresses one thing, and you try to minimize  relying on any specific reading order. if there is required reading for a topic, you call it out explicitly. for any given topic, assume the reader landed there from a google search and that they've never seen any other page of your documentation
14:42:37 <pbokoc> http://everypageispageone.com/
14:43:18 <linuxmodder> shaunm,  right I get that and agree that is what it should be but not seeing how that is not the case or not enough so presently
14:43:34 <linuxmodder> I personally feel some of the content is too vague presently
14:44:15 <shaunm> that may be
14:44:30 <shaunm> and some of the content is perfectly fine as standalone topics right now
14:45:12 <linuxmodder> I agree but the present structure of docs.fp.o as that is seems less than intuitive
14:45:13 <shaunm> I feel like we're getting into actually doing the work in this meeting
14:45:23 <linuxmodder> that imo is the major issue
14:45:40 <linuxmodder> brainstorming not doing
14:47:55 <linuxmodder> bexelbie,  shaunm  mayorga  so tentatively  we wanna skim for the eachpage is page one logic then content update/ purge outdated ?
14:48:18 <bexelbie> This is my understanding, but shaunm is the expert here
14:50:22 <shaunm> I would usually start with establishing user goals and letting topics flow out of that, and then going back to existing material to see what it can provide, or if it has material you forgot
14:51:01 <shaunm> but that's difficult to do piecemeal over irc. it's better done in a sprint, which we probably can't pull off right now
14:51:33 <shaunm> so starting from existing material is probably the most expedient route on the table
14:51:43 <linuxmodder> shaunm,  then maybe a poll on users@ and a few other mls for say 1-2 weeks asking for : what you wanna see in docs guide $guide"  then hit the docs with the updates /edits
14:52:28 <linuxmodder> or update the content as is to ensure its current release friendly and then do the above mailing
14:54:00 <bexelbie> we could also work on getting something we can do a test publish from
14:54:24 <shaunm> sure, format conversion is fairly mechanical
14:56:09 <bexelbie> so - in our last few minutes
14:56:17 <bexelbie> shaunm, linuxmodder mayorga do you have a plan for moving forward with work?
14:57:16 <linuxmodder> bexelbie,  my thought was myself and someone else run thru the guide for supported version sanity then we poll internally and end-uses and update as needed
14:57:19 <shaunm> I'm going to go through the existing material and do a topic breakdown. no content, just outline. I'll send that to the list
14:57:43 <shaunm> if anybody else wants to do the same thing, we can compare our results
14:57:51 <bexelbie> shaunm, linuxmodder will you all be able to not step on each others toes?
14:57:59 <bexelbie> shaunm, mayorga you all will be working together too?
14:58:20 <mayorga> I will do my own breakdown to compare, then.
14:58:20 <linuxmodder> shaunm,  we can fork it in a testing repo and use that commit changes there then PR it back to master
14:59:16 <linuxmodder> keep everything on pagure tho for sanity
14:59:16 <shaunm> and I'll try to think of a way to spur email discussion on user goals. I've honestly never had luck doing that sort of thing async, but try try again, because it's something the world needs to figure out how to do
14:59:37 <linuxmodder> shaunm, indeed
14:59:41 <bexelbie> cool
14:59:54 <bexelbie> Thank you all I look forward to seeing the email and I will try to chime in as well
15:00:02 <bexelbie> anything else before I close this meeting?
15:00:04 <linuxmodder> anyone opposed to a common edit repo for commits in this phase?
15:00:16 <bexelbie> linuxmodder, use the existing pagure repos, imho
15:00:26 <bexelbie> if you really need a separate branch, do so
15:00:39 <linuxmodder> branch makes more sense actually
15:00:45 <bexelbie> but master is for the next release so it should be fine to commit against, with ideally complete commits
15:00:45 <shaunm> when in doubt regarding conflicts with me, just commit your stuff and make me deal with it
15:00:45 <linuxmodder> nmfm
15:00:55 <bexelbie> then lets pull a branch
15:00:56 <mayorga> I agree with a separate branch.
15:01:17 <linuxmodder> branch it as stg or something
15:01:51 <linuxmodder> and then mention it in the ml  as a running  branch for end-users and insiders to chip in if desired
15:02:05 <bexelbie> +1
15:02:46 <bexelbie> Any other business/questions?
15:02:53 <linuxmodder> nfm
15:02:59 * mayorga has nothing to add.
15:03:48 <bexelbie> #endmeeting