14:00:24 <mattdm> #startmeeting Council (2017-02-08)
14:00:24 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Feb  8 14:00:24 2017 UTC.  The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:24 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:24 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2017-02-08)'
14:00:26 <mattdm> #meetingname council
14:00:26 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
14:00:28 <mattdm> #chair mattdm jkurik jwb langdon robyduck tatica bexelbie
14:00:28 <zodbot> Current chairs: bexelbie jkurik jwb langdon mattdm robyduck tatica
14:00:30 <mattdm> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
14:00:32 <mattdm> hi everyone!
14:01:00 <langdon> .hello langdon
14:01:01 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@fishjump.com>
14:01:01 <jkurik> .hello jkurik
14:01:03 <zodbot> jkurik: jkurik 'Jan Kurik' <jkurik@redhat.com>
14:02:41 <robyduck> .hello robyduck
14:02:41 <zodbot> robyduck: robyduck 'Robert Mayr' <robyduck@gmail.com>
14:03:59 <mattdm> well that's three of us :)
14:04:38 <mattdm> Want to talk about the weather? It's crazy here today
14:04:49 <mattdm> Everything is covered in a layer of thin, invisible ice
14:04:56 <robyduck> sunny here
14:05:00 <robyduck> :P
14:05:16 <jkurik> freezing here :)
14:05:20 <langdon> i haven't been outside really today
14:05:30 <mattdm> It's supposed to get up to ... 15C today, and then tonight we will have a blizzard
14:05:33 <mattdm> langdon: recommend not.
14:05:51 <langdon> we are supposed to get 12" or so of snow.. not sure what that is in metric
14:06:03 <langdon> 1/3 of a meter?
14:06:22 <mattdm> about 30cm, yeah
14:06:39 <mattdm> bexelbie doesn't seem to be on irc
14:07:08 <mattdm> oh he says he's double booked for the first half of this.
14:07:12 <mattdm> and jwb is a maybe
14:07:14 <mattdm> weeeeee.
14:07:34 <mattdm> I'm going to go ahead to what I'd mailed as the agenda
14:07:45 <mattdm> #topic Agenda
14:07:53 <mattdm> 1. FAmSCo member not an ambassador
14:07:55 <mattdm> https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/89
14:08:01 <mattdm> 2. Channel Fedora Brazil on Youtube
14:08:03 <mattdm> https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/75
14:08:06 <mattdm> Those are tickets.
14:08:22 <mattdm> Then, there are some non-ticket issues (that have associated tickets but are bigger than that)
14:08:35 <mattdm> 3. Marketing, and the FOSCo thing
14:08:40 <mattdm> 4. Privacy policy issues
14:08:48 <mattdm> 5. Code of conduct discussion
14:09:03 <mattdm> I think that if we start late and go slow, we might make it to #3 today :)
14:10:10 <mattdm> whoo someone just slipped and fell outside our house and yelled really loud
14:10:13 <jflory7> .hello jflory7
14:10:14 <zodbot> jflory7: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' <jflory7@gmail.com>
14:10:19 <mattdm> hi jflory7!
14:10:30 * jflory7 waves
14:10:31 <mattdm> see above -- we're kind of light on attendance :-/
14:10:53 <mattdm> we did a when-is-good and this was literally the only 1-hour timeslot which worked for everyone, on paper
14:11:07 <mattdm> in reality, maybe it was all lies :)
14:11:34 <mattdm> Should we wait a bit more or should we move ahead with item #1 with the attendees we've got?
14:11:43 <jflory7> I see. :( Not sure if related to recent traveling or not...
14:12:47 <robyduck> we could start and eventually go for a lazy consensus
14:13:36 <mattdm> jflory7: yeah, may be travel, may be adjusting to new time
14:13:42 <mattdm> robyduck: okay let's do it
14:13:52 <jflory7> That too.
14:13:53 <mattdm> #topic FAmSCo member not an ambassador
14:13:58 <mattdm> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/89
14:14:13 <mattdm> Everyone's read this ticket, yeah?
14:14:22 <jkurik> I did
14:14:44 <mattdm> We have enough +1s from the council and no -1s from council members to approve this...
14:14:55 <mattdm> but there's also some community feedback whcih happened after the initial votes
14:15:31 <mattdm> Do we have more to discuss or anything to add?
14:16:29 <langdon> mattdm, i am not up on current status.. i read the early status but not current
14:16:38 * robyduck added already the reasons for his +1, nothing to add
14:17:17 <jkurik> I am still +1, even I understand some of the complaints
14:18:14 <jflory7> As a community member and Ambassador, I understood the complaints but I would personally like to see FAmSCo focusing on moving forward as a resource for the Ambassadors and not have to backtrack to resolve this. I'd rather make sure extra steps are taken next time to vet candidates before nominations and make it especially clear about requirements to run next time.
14:18:29 <robyduck> jkurik: me too
14:18:31 <mattdm> langdon: quick skim is that mizmo is concerned that bending rules for job postings can be a diversity issue
14:19:11 <mattdm> and yn1v offers the opinion that the rules-as-written should be followed but if necessary the rules amended for the future
14:19:15 <mattdm> I think those are fair summarie
14:19:17 <mattdm> s
14:20:27 <mizmo> harvard biz review if it helps (there are many, many studies along these lines) https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs-unless-theyre-100-qualified
14:20:37 <langdon> i guess i argue that we dropped the ball on checking that the candidate was in the right group.. where I am confused is.. was the candidate an active member of the group but just forgot to dot some Is and x some Ts?
14:21:20 <bexelbie> .hello bex
14:21:21 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bex@pobox.com>
14:21:22 * bexelbie reads back
14:21:56 <langdon> like it isn't exactly intuitive that you must "check a box" in fas to be able to be part of a fedora team.. and if you are "doing the work" why do we care if they managed to figure out fas correctly?
14:21:57 <mattdm> He's definitely been active in ambassador-like activities, and we've gotten several endorsements for that
14:22:18 <mattdm> not just FAS -- the Ambassadors' mentoring program hasn't really been fully functional
14:22:25 <mattdm> which is one of the problems to solve
14:22:52 <mattdm> (not that the mentors are bad, just too few, spread too thin)
14:22:53 <langdon> so.. i think the rule is a good one (like being an official member) but i think it is on the election wrangler or the ambassador group itself to police "filling out forms" .. it shouldn't hurt a candidate..
14:23:00 * gnokii means the runner up must be quiet inactive then
14:23:03 <robyduck> langdon: no he never has been in the group, and never started a mentoring activity (no ticket in the FAmA trac), but he did ambassador-like activities and is also in other FAs groups like packaging.
14:23:58 <robyduck> oh sorry mattdm for my duplicating :)
14:25:16 <mattdm> gnokii: I don't think your activity level is at issue
14:25:37 <gnokii> mattdm: so why you bringing it forward then?
14:26:19 <langdon> i don't know.. but it seems like this a technicality to me.. and very discouraging for both the winner (and the runner up).. but i don't believe that this technicality should be a blocker to a person who ran and won an office.. but, fedora needs to be careful of this in the future.. i don't know.. i may need to read the ticket and let it cook for a day
14:27:14 <langdon> in particular need to read how mizmo thinks breaking the rule is a diversity issue
14:27:20 <mizmo> i think gnokii's point is that it'd be one thing if there wasn't a runner up
14:27:21 <mizmo> but there is
14:27:29 <mattdm> I'm okay with letting it cook, but let's not draw it out too long
14:27:33 <mizmo> so this reflects on two people
14:28:09 <mattdm> I don't think it should reflect on two people. That's not really fair to either of them. I think we should answer the question on its own merits
14:28:43 <langdon> wait... am i confused? was the winner just not in a fas group? or is there something else here?
14:28:55 <bexelbie> langdon, the winner wasn't in the FAS group is all, aiui
14:29:04 <mizmo> the point is that if there wasn't a runner up and someone was needed to fill the slot, the consideration is totally different than if there is a qualified runner up candidate who did meet the rules
14:29:18 <mizmo> langdon: not in the fas group, not mentored formally as part of the ambassador process
14:29:22 <langdon> ok.. so the ticket seems to imply that they also aren't an "ambassador" formally
14:29:23 <robyduck> mizmo: I think this has to be looked at as *issue*, without looking at what would come after it, otherwise you will not be able to make the best decision
14:29:29 <mizmo> langdon: ambassador group has a fairly rigorous process to membership
14:29:31 <mattdm> langdon: that is also true, yes
14:29:53 <langdon> ahh.. well.. personally, that makes it much more than a technicality
14:30:07 <Southern_Gentlem> langdon, but has done more than most ambassadors
14:30:10 <gnokii> no the winner has not the qualification at all, as robyduck stated there is no ticket in FAMA so no mentor disappeared, he get a fast track now already to become Ambassador thats enough
14:30:30 <Southern_Gentlem> gnokii, +!
14:30:33 <Southern_Gentlem> 1
14:30:41 <mattdm> go ahead Southern_Gentlem
14:31:02 <itamarjp> gnokii, I disagree with you, he is not ambassador because theres no mentors available to add him into the group, the guy is a very skilled guy.
14:31:33 <gnokii> itamarjp: yeah I see just missed the skill to read regulations and understand them
14:31:40 <itamarjp> if you look at council ticket you will saw that I filled several tickets requesting a refresh of mentors.
14:31:53 <gnokii> and btw you are for him because he is a brazilian like you are
14:32:04 <mizmo> itamarjp: except it seems now that his membership is  questioned people are volunteering to be his mentor, so why couldn't that have been arranged before the election
14:32:12 <langdon> ok.. let's not get aggresive here
14:32:15 <Southern_Gentlem> looking at the candidates history, he has done more as anon ambassador than most ambassadors do, he has just never asked for the title. If he will ask for the title, he can be made an ambassador quickly and that solves the issue , now its up to FAMSCO if he gets to vote until that happen in my mind
14:32:23 <gnokii> refresh you appointed yourself as mentor not refresh anything
14:32:24 <mizmo> gnokii: thats not helpful
14:32:38 <gnokii> and the first thing you did is reopen that closed ticket
14:33:14 <langdon> gnokii, this is not the place to ascribe meaning to other people
14:33:17 <langdon> s actions
14:33:25 <robyduck> mattdm: we should really take in consideration objective points, without discussing on people. The question is: do we want to go ahead and try to move forward, and make a better control next time,, or should we reject that task to FAmSCo (who is responsible for eventually find a replacement)
14:33:47 <mattdm> robyduck: +1
14:34:33 <bexelbie> robyduck, my read of what you wrote was that there was no currently stated preference in the method of selecting empty seats ... therefore it seemed we could just follow the existing processes and go with, I believe it was option 2 ... did I misread?
14:34:38 <gnokii> langdon I cant accept when people call what they have done in another way
14:34:42 <langdon> this may be a stupid question, but *why* does one need to be a member of the ambassador-fas group to run?
14:34:57 <langdon> gnokii, i don't mind facts, but please don't ascribe meaning to those facts
14:35:17 <langdon> is the fas group membership proof of mentorship?
14:35:18 <bexelbie> langdon, I think that we can ask FAMSCo to examine the requirements for being on FAMSCo as part of their work on Ambassadors
14:36:16 <robyduck> bexelbie: yes, that's what FAmSCo is going to do. Recollect all the things we have still around and see how to redefine all that and make things simpler or at least clearer
14:36:18 <mizmo> langdon: it's supposed to be proof yeh
14:36:19 <mattdm> I'm happy to remit this back to FAMSCo (with fredlima obviously abstaining) to fill the empty seat by whatever process seems right
14:36:44 <mattdm> as long as that doesn't result in a protracted argument
14:36:44 <mizmo> langdon: i guess it's a similar question - the qualification one - to whether or not one would have any experience with a public school as a teacher or admin before being sec of education - and i guess that is contested too
14:36:45 <langdon> mattdm, +1
14:36:51 <robyduck> bexelbie: and yes, option #2 is one of the options and the one we would go for as jkurik said
14:36:54 <gnokii> langdon famsco rules the ambassadors, therefore somebody should be member of that fas group and ambassadors get their group after a mentoring process
14:36:58 <langdon> mizmo, lol
14:37:14 <bexelbie> robyduck, did FAMSCo vote on this already?  I read the ticket as them saying "we made this call, are you all ok with it?"
14:37:14 <mattdm> mizmo: uh, let's not go there please
14:37:36 <robyduck> no, it came out after the last meeting
14:37:41 <langdon> mizmo, my point was, did someone forget to check a box? or did someone not perform a series of actions that the group thinks are important (rightly or wrongly) .. sounds like the latter
14:38:05 <bexelbie> robyduck, ahh then I am +1 in asking FAMSCo to make a decision and report it back as a matter of course not approval - council can act only if it feels the need to
14:38:06 <gnokii> yeah it came out because some was sleeping in this meeting where he said he isnt ambassador
14:38:07 <langdon> which is NOT a technicality in my opinion
14:38:26 <langdon> gnokii, again, please do not ascribe meaning to facts
14:38:33 * bexelbie sees this as a vacated seat question
14:38:42 <langdon> gnokii, you have no idea if someone was sleeping or what their state of mind was
14:39:52 <mattdm> I'm concerned with the bigger picture. We really need a renewed, invigorated, and *different* ambassadors. I appreciate very much all of the work of the existing ambassadors, but we need new direction to have impact in the world today.
14:39:53 <langdon> arguably the whole election is invalid as the candidates did not meet the criterion.. but i can be a bit crazy
14:40:10 <gnokii> ++
14:40:33 <mizmo> langdon: it is my understanding that it wasn't just a missing checkbox - there was no mentor - so the mentorship process didn't happen
14:40:47 <bexelbie> mattdm++
14:41:04 <mizmo> langdon: this is a repeated sore spot for ambassadors, we've had issues where someone went through the process in apparently less than 24 hours before their box was checked and that caused a lot of strife that we're still feeling the effects from
14:41:29 <mizmo> langdon: so it's not just a checkbox, it has a lot of meaning to a lot of people and is supposed to symbolize the culmination of a protracted period of time involving rigorous work under the mentorship of a proven ambassador
14:41:54 * langdon notes why contyk was so afraid i had proven packager status ;)
14:42:50 <mattdm> mizmo: is that process producing the Ambassadors organization the project as a whole needs?
14:42:55 <bexelbie> We seem to be discussing the ongoing challenges of the Ambassador program and not the question.  It makes me wonder if we have something that can be repaired at all ...
14:43:40 <mizmo> mattdm: i think the reason that process was adopted was because of what happens when you dont have a rigorous process -
14:43:54 <mizmo> mattdm: a constant stream of people adding the group as a +1 so they can get the benefits without putting the work in
14:44:07 <mizmo> mattdm: we get that on the design team too, which is why we had to add some process before approving membership in that team
14:44:31 <mattdm> mizmo: Yeah, and kushal has given me more than one earful about that being a huge problem in the past :)
14:44:41 <langdon> as someone said, i think this is a famsco issue. The seat was not validly elected upon. I think it stays open til next election cycle or famsco votes on the method they will use to fill the seat until then.
14:44:45 <mizmo> mattdm: the "non technical" teams tend to get flooded with FAS group requests for that reason. and sometimes it's not just innocent 'i want free stuff' it's spammers
14:45:12 * bexelbie wishes docs would get flooded
14:45:35 <mizmo> bexelbie: it's not like the flood is actually resulting in work getting done, that's the problem.
14:45:59 <jkurik> langdon: yes, reeading the discussion here it seems to me like this is the right solution how to move on
14:46:00 <robyduck> mizmo: yes, we need to improve the process, that's right. Which also is a reason why I would not look too much on this "checkbox" how it has been called, because some people got that checkbox with almost no work
14:46:06 <mattdm> So, I like langdon's proposal
14:46:08 <bexelbie> I like it when people do the work .. I am tired of arguing about titles
14:46:42 <langdon> bexelbie, "docs group" or "content team" or "word nerds" , for example!?!?! ;)
14:46:49 <gnokii_> robyduck: you comparing again
14:46:54 <bexelbie> +1 langdon proposal .. vacated seat .. famsco fill or not as appropriate
14:47:26 <mizmo> does famsco have a process in place for filling vacant seats out of band?
14:47:42 <robyduck> yes
14:47:47 <mattdm> mizmo: yes. It's at the top of the ticket
14:47:49 <bexelbie> yes per the ticket
14:47:53 <langdon> robyduck, but my point is, it is *supposed* to represent work.. even if it failed to on occasion.. it is not just that langdon didn't read the right wiki page about the process
14:48:02 <mattdm> The wording on the first part of the policy is somewhat ambigious
14:48:19 <langdon> i want to ask them to formally vote on the method of fill this time though..
14:48:20 <robyduck> langdon: yes
14:48:29 <bexelbie> yes
14:48:54 <mattdm> It says that "runner ups that did not have the opportunity to be on FAMSCo will be considered and offered a seat"
14:49:04 <langdon> but there is no runner up
14:49:08 <langdon> the election was invalid
14:49:29 <mattdm> langdon: soooooo, election do-over?
14:49:31 <langdon> you don't just cancel out a person
14:49:42 <mizmo> i think the language there refers to the last election
14:49:47 <itamarjp> and the process of being ambassador is invalid too, theres no one to accept the guy into that group.
14:49:50 <langdon> no.. you don't have to do a new election.. they have a process for empty seats
14:49:50 <mizmo> previous to the curent
14:49:56 <itamarjp> its not his fault
14:50:31 <itamarjp> the was able to enter in all other groups, except that one.
14:50:41 <langdon> itamarjp, sure.. but it is still a process that must be followed to run for office in the famsco group..
14:50:43 <gnokii_> ^^
14:50:50 <mattdm> mizmo: which is kind of weird really
14:51:21 <langdon> ok.. so where are we at?
14:51:23 <bexelbie> i think our community spoke in this election and I am hesitant to see that tossed away
14:51:23 <gnokii_> mattdm: please add an action to famsco
14:51:37 <gnokii_> to investigate if a mentor has rejected the guy
14:51:46 <bexelbie> invalidating the election does that
14:52:02 <jflory7> I'm inclined to agree with bexelbie too
14:52:03 <langdon> bexelbie, that is EXACTLY my point.. the community voted for someone in good faith... that person was ineligible.. that does not mean that the 2nd place finisher is who the community wanted
14:52:11 <mattdm> So, the initial proposal in the ticket was really the same as langdon is saying: to treat this with the "vacant seat" proposal
14:52:19 <bexelbie> langdon, ok, we are on the same page :)
14:52:53 <mattdm> and robyduck proposes that rather than going back to the previous election, the rules in point #2 be used
14:53:03 <mattdm> which is "FAmSCo will ask Fedora community members that they think would do a good job if they would be willing to hold the open seats."
14:53:34 <mattdm> So I think we've *basically* come full circle to that
14:53:43 <langdon> well.. it would be -2 election because -1 election is deemed invalid.. but are these options ordered? or just happened to be numbered?
14:53:43 <bexelbie> +360
14:54:22 <robyduck> we did more a 720 here :D
14:54:33 <bexelbie> 2 pi radians?
14:54:39 <mattdm> And to address mizmo's diversity concern, we should make sure that as FAmSCo is considering rebuilding ambassadors, those things be built-in to new processes
14:54:41 <langdon> perhaps the same conclusion.. but i like my argument for why better ;)
14:54:53 <mattdm> langdon: ok, sure, put it in the ticket then.
14:55:16 <langdon> and it is very important to note.. we are NOT breaking any of the rules. We are ack'ing a broken election.
14:55:25 <mizmo> mattdm: for it to be more inclusive i would suggest Famsco also approach, not just ask people to self nominate, qualified potential candidates
14:55:32 <langdon> the election process was mistakenly done
14:55:59 <mattdm> mizmo++
14:56:00 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for duffy changed to 13 (for the f25 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:56:30 <itamarjp> the elections was good to show that the way ambassador is working is broken (my opinion)
14:56:49 <gnokii_> nonsense
14:57:01 <robyduck> itamarjp: gnokii_ please that's not the question here
14:57:04 <langdon> itamarjp, gnokii_ please take that convo offline
14:57:22 <mattdm> we have two minutes left...
14:57:28 <langdon> ok... ill write up my opinion in the ticket
14:57:29 <mattdm> and with this timeslot, this really is a hard stop
14:57:33 <mattdm> thanks langdon
14:57:49 <gnokii_> langdon I asked to add that as action to investigate if that is true that no mentor wanted the guy
14:57:53 <mattdm> and, for agenda item #2, it's really "Hey, can you please take this to marketing"?
14:58:21 <itamarjp> according the guy the mentors he contacted never replied him.
14:58:39 <bexelbie> mattdm, was #2 boltron?
14:58:45 <langdon> gnokii_, i don't "care" about that. Seems like the issue is one for famsco.. not council (i do care, but not with my council hat on)
14:58:46 * bexelbie was late, I am sorry - had a critical Fedora call
14:58:52 <mattdm> bexelbie: #2 was brazil youtube channel
14:58:55 <robyduck> mattdm: agree
14:58:59 <bexelbie> mattdm, cool
14:59:05 <bexelbie> and agree
14:59:14 <langdon> mattdm, didn't we resolve that one?
14:59:22 <mattdm> I *really* don't want to get the council into the business of adjucating personal disputes. That's not what we're here for
14:59:34 <mattdm> langdon: it's left hanging. see ticket. :)
14:59:40 <mattdm> okay 20 more seconds....
14:59:49 * langdon mutters maybe if someone switched the topic
14:59:52 * fredlima is still waiting more than an year for the brazilian mentor reply his e-mail
15:00:36 <mattdm> thanks everyone for contributing to the discussion
15:00:56 <mattdm> #endmeeting