14:00:24 #startmeeting Council (2017-02-08) 14:00:24 Meeting started Wed Feb 8 14:00:24 2017 UTC. The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:00:24 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 14:00:24 The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2017-02-08)' 14:00:26 #meetingname council 14:00:26 The meeting name has been set to 'council' 14:00:28 #chair mattdm jkurik jwb langdon robyduck tatica bexelbie 14:00:28 Current chairs: bexelbie jkurik jwb langdon mattdm robyduck tatica 14:00:30 #topic Introductions, Welcomes 14:00:32 hi everyone! 14:01:00 .hello langdon 14:01:01 langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' 14:01:01 .hello jkurik 14:01:03 jkurik: jkurik 'Jan Kurik' 14:02:41 .hello robyduck 14:02:41 robyduck: robyduck 'Robert Mayr' 14:03:59 well that's three of us :) 14:04:38 Want to talk about the weather? It's crazy here today 14:04:49 Everything is covered in a layer of thin, invisible ice 14:04:56 sunny here 14:05:00 :P 14:05:16 freezing here :) 14:05:20 i haven't been outside really today 14:05:30 It's supposed to get up to ... 15C today, and then tonight we will have a blizzard 14:05:33 langdon: recommend not. 14:05:51 we are supposed to get 12" or so of snow.. not sure what that is in metric 14:06:03 1/3 of a meter? 14:06:22 about 30cm, yeah 14:06:39 bexelbie doesn't seem to be on irc 14:07:08 oh he says he's double booked for the first half of this. 14:07:12 and jwb is a maybe 14:07:14 weeeeee. 14:07:34 I'm going to go ahead to what I'd mailed as the agenda 14:07:45 #topic Agenda 14:07:53 1. FAmSCo member not an ambassador 14:07:55 https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/89 14:08:01 2. Channel Fedora Brazil on Youtube 14:08:03 https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/75 14:08:06 Those are tickets. 14:08:22 Then, there are some non-ticket issues (that have associated tickets but are bigger than that) 14:08:35 3. Marketing, and the FOSCo thing 14:08:40 4. Privacy policy issues 14:08:48 5. Code of conduct discussion 14:09:03 I think that if we start late and go slow, we might make it to #3 today :) 14:10:10 whoo someone just slipped and fell outside our house and yelled really loud 14:10:13 .hello jflory7 14:10:14 jflory7: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' 14:10:19 hi jflory7! 14:10:30 * jflory7 waves 14:10:31 see above -- we're kind of light on attendance :-/ 14:10:53 we did a when-is-good and this was literally the only 1-hour timeslot which worked for everyone, on paper 14:11:07 in reality, maybe it was all lies :) 14:11:34 Should we wait a bit more or should we move ahead with item #1 with the attendees we've got? 14:11:43 I see. :( Not sure if related to recent traveling or not... 14:12:47 we could start and eventually go for a lazy consensus 14:13:36 jflory7: yeah, may be travel, may be adjusting to new time 14:13:42 robyduck: okay let's do it 14:13:52 That too. 14:13:53 #topic FAmSCo member not an ambassador 14:13:58 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/89 14:14:13 Everyone's read this ticket, yeah? 14:14:22 I did 14:14:44 We have enough +1s from the council and no -1s from council members to approve this... 14:14:55 but there's also some community feedback whcih happened after the initial votes 14:15:31 Do we have more to discuss or anything to add? 14:16:29 mattdm, i am not up on current status.. i read the early status but not current 14:16:38 * robyduck added already the reasons for his +1, nothing to add 14:17:17 I am still +1, even I understand some of the complaints 14:18:14 As a community member and Ambassador, I understood the complaints but I would personally like to see FAmSCo focusing on moving forward as a resource for the Ambassadors and not have to backtrack to resolve this. I'd rather make sure extra steps are taken next time to vet candidates before nominations and make it especially clear about requirements to run next time. 14:18:29 jkurik: me too 14:18:31 langdon: quick skim is that mizmo is concerned that bending rules for job postings can be a diversity issue 14:19:11 and yn1v offers the opinion that the rules-as-written should be followed but if necessary the rules amended for the future 14:19:15 I think those are fair summarie 14:19:17 s 14:20:27 harvard biz review if it helps (there are many, many studies along these lines) https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs-unless-theyre-100-qualified 14:20:37 i guess i argue that we dropped the ball on checking that the candidate was in the right group.. where I am confused is.. was the candidate an active member of the group but just forgot to dot some Is and x some Ts? 14:21:20 .hello bex 14:21:21 bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' 14:21:22 * bexelbie reads back 14:21:56 like it isn't exactly intuitive that you must "check a box" in fas to be able to be part of a fedora team.. and if you are "doing the work" why do we care if they managed to figure out fas correctly? 14:21:57 He's definitely been active in ambassador-like activities, and we've gotten several endorsements for that 14:22:18 not just FAS -- the Ambassadors' mentoring program hasn't really been fully functional 14:22:25 which is one of the problems to solve 14:22:52 (not that the mentors are bad, just too few, spread too thin) 14:22:53 so.. i think the rule is a good one (like being an official member) but i think it is on the election wrangler or the ambassador group itself to police "filling out forms" .. it shouldn't hurt a candidate.. 14:23:00 * gnokii means the runner up must be quiet inactive then 14:23:03 langdon: no he never has been in the group, and never started a mentoring activity (no ticket in the FAmA trac), but he did ambassador-like activities and is also in other FAs groups like packaging. 14:23:58 oh sorry mattdm for my duplicating :) 14:25:16 gnokii: I don't think your activity level is at issue 14:25:37 mattdm: so why you bringing it forward then? 14:26:19 i don't know.. but it seems like this a technicality to me.. and very discouraging for both the winner (and the runner up).. but i don't believe that this technicality should be a blocker to a person who ran and won an office.. but, fedora needs to be careful of this in the future.. i don't know.. i may need to read the ticket and let it cook for a day 14:27:14 in particular need to read how mizmo thinks breaking the rule is a diversity issue 14:27:20 i think gnokii's point is that it'd be one thing if there wasn't a runner up 14:27:21 but there is 14:27:29 I'm okay with letting it cook, but let's not draw it out too long 14:27:33 so this reflects on two people 14:28:09 I don't think it should reflect on two people. That's not really fair to either of them. I think we should answer the question on its own merits 14:28:43 wait... am i confused? was the winner just not in a fas group? or is there something else here? 14:28:55 langdon, the winner wasn't in the FAS group is all, aiui 14:29:04 the point is that if there wasn't a runner up and someone was needed to fill the slot, the consideration is totally different than if there is a qualified runner up candidate who did meet the rules 14:29:18 langdon: not in the fas group, not mentored formally as part of the ambassador process 14:29:22 ok.. so the ticket seems to imply that they also aren't an "ambassador" formally 14:29:23 mizmo: I think this has to be looked at as *issue*, without looking at what would come after it, otherwise you will not be able to make the best decision 14:29:29 langdon: ambassador group has a fairly rigorous process to membership 14:29:31 langdon: that is also true, yes 14:29:53 ahh.. well.. personally, that makes it much more than a technicality 14:30:07 langdon, but has done more than most ambassadors 14:30:10 no the winner has not the qualification at all, as robyduck stated there is no ticket in FAMA so no mentor disappeared, he get a fast track now already to become Ambassador thats enough 14:30:30 gnokii, +! 14:30:33 1 14:30:41 go ahead Southern_Gentlem 14:31:02 gnokii, I disagree with you, he is not ambassador because theres no mentors available to add him into the group, the guy is a very skilled guy. 14:31:33 itamarjp: yeah I see just missed the skill to read regulations and understand them 14:31:40 if you look at council ticket you will saw that I filled several tickets requesting a refresh of mentors. 14:31:53 and btw you are for him because he is a brazilian like you are 14:32:04 itamarjp: except it seems now that his membership is questioned people are volunteering to be his mentor, so why couldn't that have been arranged before the election 14:32:12 ok.. let's not get aggresive here 14:32:15 looking at the candidates history, he has done more as anon ambassador than most ambassadors do, he has just never asked for the title. If he will ask for the title, he can be made an ambassador quickly and that solves the issue , now its up to FAMSCO if he gets to vote until that happen in my mind 14:32:23 refresh you appointed yourself as mentor not refresh anything 14:32:24 gnokii: thats not helpful 14:32:38 and the first thing you did is reopen that closed ticket 14:33:14 gnokii, this is not the place to ascribe meaning to other people 14:33:17 s actions 14:33:25 mattdm: we should really take in consideration objective points, without discussing on people. The question is: do we want to go ahead and try to move forward, and make a better control next time,, or should we reject that task to FAmSCo (who is responsible for eventually find a replacement) 14:33:47 robyduck: +1 14:34:33 robyduck, my read of what you wrote was that there was no currently stated preference in the method of selecting empty seats ... therefore it seemed we could just follow the existing processes and go with, I believe it was option 2 ... did I misread? 14:34:38 langdon I cant accept when people call what they have done in another way 14:34:42 this may be a stupid question, but *why* does one need to be a member of the ambassador-fas group to run? 14:34:57 gnokii, i don't mind facts, but please don't ascribe meaning to those facts 14:35:17 is the fas group membership proof of mentorship? 14:35:18 langdon, I think that we can ask FAMSCo to examine the requirements for being on FAMSCo as part of their work on Ambassadors 14:36:16 bexelbie: yes, that's what FAmSCo is going to do. Recollect all the things we have still around and see how to redefine all that and make things simpler or at least clearer 14:36:18 langdon: it's supposed to be proof yeh 14:36:19 I'm happy to remit this back to FAMSCo (with fredlima obviously abstaining) to fill the empty seat by whatever process seems right 14:36:44 as long as that doesn't result in a protracted argument 14:36:44 langdon: i guess it's a similar question - the qualification one - to whether or not one would have any experience with a public school as a teacher or admin before being sec of education - and i guess that is contested too 14:36:45 mattdm, +1 14:36:51 bexelbie: and yes, option #2 is one of the options and the one we would go for as jkurik said 14:36:54 langdon famsco rules the ambassadors, therefore somebody should be member of that fas group and ambassadors get their group after a mentoring process 14:36:58 mizmo, lol 14:37:14 robyduck, did FAMSCo vote on this already? I read the ticket as them saying "we made this call, are you all ok with it?" 14:37:14 mizmo: uh, let's not go there please 14:37:36 no, it came out after the last meeting 14:37:41 mizmo, my point was, did someone forget to check a box? or did someone not perform a series of actions that the group thinks are important (rightly or wrongly) .. sounds like the latter 14:38:05 robyduck, ahh then I am +1 in asking FAMSCo to make a decision and report it back as a matter of course not approval - council can act only if it feels the need to 14:38:06 yeah it came out because some was sleeping in this meeting where he said he isnt ambassador 14:38:07 which is NOT a technicality in my opinion 14:38:26 gnokii, again, please do not ascribe meaning to facts 14:38:33 * bexelbie sees this as a vacated seat question 14:38:42 gnokii, you have no idea if someone was sleeping or what their state of mind was 14:39:52 I'm concerned with the bigger picture. We really need a renewed, invigorated, and *different* ambassadors. I appreciate very much all of the work of the existing ambassadors, but we need new direction to have impact in the world today. 14:39:53 arguably the whole election is invalid as the candidates did not meet the criterion.. but i can be a bit crazy 14:40:10 ++ 14:40:33 langdon: it is my understanding that it wasn't just a missing checkbox - there was no mentor - so the mentorship process didn't happen 14:40:47 mattdm++ 14:41:04 langdon: this is a repeated sore spot for ambassadors, we've had issues where someone went through the process in apparently less than 24 hours before their box was checked and that caused a lot of strife that we're still feeling the effects from 14:41:29 langdon: so it's not just a checkbox, it has a lot of meaning to a lot of people and is supposed to symbolize the culmination of a protracted period of time involving rigorous work under the mentorship of a proven ambassador 14:41:54 * langdon notes why contyk was so afraid i had proven packager status ;) 14:42:50 mizmo: is that process producing the Ambassadors organization the project as a whole needs? 14:42:55 We seem to be discussing the ongoing challenges of the Ambassador program and not the question. It makes me wonder if we have something that can be repaired at all ... 14:43:40 mattdm: i think the reason that process was adopted was because of what happens when you dont have a rigorous process - 14:43:54 mattdm: a constant stream of people adding the group as a +1 so they can get the benefits without putting the work in 14:44:07 mattdm: we get that on the design team too, which is why we had to add some process before approving membership in that team 14:44:31 mizmo: Yeah, and kushal has given me more than one earful about that being a huge problem in the past :) 14:44:41 as someone said, i think this is a famsco issue. The seat was not validly elected upon. I think it stays open til next election cycle or famsco votes on the method they will use to fill the seat until then. 14:44:45 mattdm: the "non technical" teams tend to get flooded with FAS group requests for that reason. and sometimes it's not just innocent 'i want free stuff' it's spammers 14:45:12 * bexelbie wishes docs would get flooded 14:45:35 bexelbie: it's not like the flood is actually resulting in work getting done, that's the problem. 14:45:59 langdon: yes, reeading the discussion here it seems to me like this is the right solution how to move on 14:46:00 mizmo: yes, we need to improve the process, that's right. Which also is a reason why I would not look too much on this "checkbox" how it has been called, because some people got that checkbox with almost no work 14:46:06 So, I like langdon's proposal 14:46:08 I like it when people do the work .. I am tired of arguing about titles 14:46:42 bexelbie, "docs group" or "content team" or "word nerds" , for example!?!?! ;) 14:46:49 robyduck: you comparing again 14:46:54 +1 langdon proposal .. vacated seat .. famsco fill or not as appropriate 14:47:26 does famsco have a process in place for filling vacant seats out of band? 14:47:42 yes 14:47:47 mizmo: yes. It's at the top of the ticket 14:47:49 yes per the ticket 14:47:53 robyduck, but my point is, it is *supposed* to represent work.. even if it failed to on occasion.. it is not just that langdon didn't read the right wiki page about the process 14:48:02 The wording on the first part of the policy is somewhat ambigious 14:48:19 i want to ask them to formally vote on the method of fill this time though.. 14:48:20 langdon: yes 14:48:29 yes 14:48:54 It says that "runner ups that did not have the opportunity to be on FAMSCo will be considered and offered a seat" 14:49:04 but there is no runner up 14:49:08 the election was invalid 14:49:29 langdon: soooooo, election do-over? 14:49:31 you don't just cancel out a person 14:49:42 i think the language there refers to the last election 14:49:47 and the process of being ambassador is invalid too, theres no one to accept the guy into that group. 14:49:50 no.. you don't have to do a new election.. they have a process for empty seats 14:49:50 previous to the curent 14:49:56 its not his fault 14:50:31 the was able to enter in all other groups, except that one. 14:50:41 itamarjp, sure.. but it is still a process that must be followed to run for office in the famsco group.. 14:50:43 ^^ 14:50:50 mizmo: which is kind of weird really 14:51:21 ok.. so where are we at? 14:51:23 i think our community spoke in this election and I am hesitant to see that tossed away 14:51:23 mattdm: please add an action to famsco 14:51:37 to investigate if a mentor has rejected the guy 14:51:46 invalidating the election does that 14:52:02 I'm inclined to agree with bexelbie too 14:52:03 bexelbie, that is EXACTLY my point.. the community voted for someone in good faith... that person was ineligible.. that does not mean that the 2nd place finisher is who the community wanted 14:52:11 So, the initial proposal in the ticket was really the same as langdon is saying: to treat this with the "vacant seat" proposal 14:52:19 langdon, ok, we are on the same page :) 14:52:53 and robyduck proposes that rather than going back to the previous election, the rules in point #2 be used 14:53:03 which is "FAmSCo will ask Fedora community members that they think would do a good job if they would be willing to hold the open seats." 14:53:34 So I think we've *basically* come full circle to that 14:53:43 well.. it would be -2 election because -1 election is deemed invalid.. but are these options ordered? or just happened to be numbered? 14:53:43 +360 14:54:22 we did more a 720 here :D 14:54:33 2 pi radians? 14:54:39 And to address mizmo's diversity concern, we should make sure that as FAmSCo is considering rebuilding ambassadors, those things be built-in to new processes 14:54:41 perhaps the same conclusion.. but i like my argument for why better ;) 14:54:53 langdon: ok, sure, put it in the ticket then. 14:55:16 and it is very important to note.. we are NOT breaking any of the rules. We are ack'ing a broken election. 14:55:25 mattdm: for it to be more inclusive i would suggest Famsco also approach, not just ask people to self nominate, qualified potential candidates 14:55:32 the election process was mistakenly done 14:55:59 mizmo++ 14:56:00 mattdm: Karma for duffy changed to 13 (for the f25 release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 14:56:30 the elections was good to show that the way ambassador is working is broken (my opinion) 14:56:49 nonsense 14:57:01 itamarjp: gnokii_ please that's not the question here 14:57:04 itamarjp, gnokii_ please take that convo offline 14:57:22 we have two minutes left... 14:57:28 ok... ill write up my opinion in the ticket 14:57:29 and with this timeslot, this really is a hard stop 14:57:33 thanks langdon 14:57:49 langdon I asked to add that as action to investigate if that is true that no mentor wanted the guy 14:57:53 and, for agenda item #2, it's really "Hey, can you please take this to marketing"? 14:58:21 according the guy the mentors he contacted never replied him. 14:58:39 mattdm, was #2 boltron? 14:58:45 gnokii_, i don't "care" about that. Seems like the issue is one for famsco.. not council (i do care, but not with my council hat on) 14:58:46 * bexelbie was late, I am sorry - had a critical Fedora call 14:58:52 bexelbie: #2 was brazil youtube channel 14:58:55 mattdm: agree 14:58:59 mattdm, cool 14:59:05 and agree 14:59:14 mattdm, didn't we resolve that one? 14:59:22 I *really* don't want to get the council into the business of adjucating personal disputes. That's not what we're here for 14:59:34 langdon: it's left hanging. see ticket. :) 14:59:40 okay 20 more seconds.... 14:59:49 * langdon mutters maybe if someone switched the topic 14:59:52 * fredlima is still waiting more than an year for the brazilian mentor reply his e-mail 15:00:36 thanks everyone for contributing to the discussion 15:00:56 #endmeeting