13:59:59 #startmeeting Council (2017-11-08) 13:59:59 Meeting started Wed Nov 8 13:59:59 2017 UTC. The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 13:59:59 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 13:59:59 The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2017-11-08)' 14:00:00 #meetingname council 14:00:00 The meeting name has been set to 'council' 14:00:02 #chair mattdm jkurik jwb langdon robyduck bexelbie stefw 14:00:02 Current chairs: bexelbie jkurik jwb langdon mattdm robyduck stefw 14:00:04 #topic Introductions, Welcomes 14:00:18 .hello2 14:00:19 jkurik: jkurik 'Jan Kurik' 14:00:40 good morning jkurik! 14:00:45 or afternoon -- sorry! 14:01:16 hi mattdm 14:01:30 anyone else around? :) 14:02:18 * mattdm twiddles thumbs 14:02:41 actually, forget thumb-twiddling. /me makes coffee... 14:02:50 .hello bex 14:02:51 bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' 14:03:15 .hello2 14:03:16 langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' 14:03:23 last meeting ran a little long 14:03:35 no problem. 14:03:58 I would like to announce that last night I had a dream about converting huge amounts of the Fedora Wiki to Asciidoc for the new docs site 14:04:11 Unfortunately, for some reason, all of the pages were about various superheros 14:04:26 Wonder Woman, Batman, Captain America, etc. 14:04:39 .hello robyduck 14:04:40 robyduck: robyduck 'Robert Mayr' 14:04:58 mattdm: what is unfortunate about that? 14:05:06 langdon: less useful for the project 14:05:24 although maybe not so important since I didn't actually do any real work anyway, what with the dreaming and all :) 14:05:31 that is definitely a matter of opinion.. have you seen some of the wiki pages? like how to build an rpm? 14:05:38 i am here now, sorry 14:05:51 ok, cool, looks like we've got everyone 14:05:58 #topic Today's Open Floor Agenda 14:06:26 * langdon needs to switch to mobile for a few minutes so typing might be laggy 14:06:29 This is open-floor agenda construction. Propose things and I'll order them and we'll talk about them 14:06:55 Here's some things *I'd* like to get caught up on... 14:07:11 * Fedora Server and Modularity -- what's the current state of beta and release and timeline? 14:07:21 * Elections for Council -- do we need to do anything 14:07:50 * The new Docs stuff -- how can we get people doing stuff, and what more do we need to make the whole system work 14:08:10 mattdm: so.. for ease of my typing can we not do modularity first? 14:08:40 * I know the diversity team council change is blocked on my slowness (sorry!) but maybe also discuss diversity and mindshare and council? 14:08:41 #137, #142, #117 relate to some of thoes 14:08:52 anything else? 14:09:02 that's quite a lot already :) 14:09:15 robyduck: yeah, but maybe my stuff isn't the collective most important :) 14:09:30 langdon: and, yes, we'll delay for you. We can make bexelbie go first :) 14:10:04 i had one 14:10:18 we had funds left over in the budget iirc. did we sort out what we were going to do with those? 14:10:40 oh, yes. that's a big deal. I think the answer is no :) 14:10:47 Council Party? 14:10:50 :D 14:10:52 :) 14:10:56 Okay, so agenda: 14:11:05 1. New Docs Stuff State of the Union 14:11:26 2. Budget: What are we doing with it? What about next FY? 14:11:34 3. Elections update 14:11:38 4. Modular Server 14:11:49 5. Diversity and Mindshare (time permitting) 14:12:03 and we're 12 minutes in already so let's go :) 14:12:09 #topic New Docs Stuff State of the Union 14:12:22 bexelbie, can you give some quick #infos on this? 14:12:33 #info docs are building today, manually 14:12:47 #info we are able to pull in docs that are not traditional docs, such as the council docs 14:13:06 #info those docs retain their existing process and management - we just need to them in AsciiBinder and AsciiDoc - we can help 14:13:18 #info see council docs live at https://docs.fedoraproject.org/fedora-project/council/charter.html 14:13:43 #info I've been working with CentOS CI on getting automatic building and publishing - it is blocked on fedmsg trigger issues - either jenkins plugin needs updating or the new method of triggering needs to be finished - neither is done 14:13:58 #info my ci goal remains to get a button to push than can later be triggered 14:13:59 Fyi there is a bug in pagure that if you commit via the web no fedmsg is triggered.. So your rebuilds may not run.. 14:14:19 #info we need search - that needs people or time for people to get free 14:14:19 "asciibinder" is a tool which takes asciidocs in a directory and builds a simple static website from them 14:14:29 langdon, is that bug filed? 14:14:33 #help we need someone to work on search for the new docs 14:15:00 bexelbie: is the intention with this site to replace the wiki? 14:15:01 #info we need to get translations working - JB is working on the translation side - I'll do tooling as we get ready to actually publish 14:15:14 This site is not designed to replace the "whiteboard" of the wiki 14:15:32 However, this site is a more durable information locatoin for things that are not whiteboard material anymore 14:15:46 bexelbie: so things like the packaging guidelines would be targets? 14:15:54 that would be ideal 14:15:56 jwb: The goal is to replace the wiki for first, all user documentation and second all contributor documentation (particularly, documentation where contributors are the "users" of the project) 14:16:03 Bexelbie yes 14:16:04 to that end, I am looking at extending asciibinder to allow non-asciidoc formats 14:16:19 I think a git-based workflow would fit the packaging guidelines nicely 14:16:20 hm 14:16:22 that way those docs can live in the best markup for them, not the one forced by a tool 14:16:48 i like it. i wonder how many teams that would be able to make use of this are aware of its existence though? 14:16:59 make use of - lots / all 14:17:02 aware - probably a lower number 14:17:10 I am debating whether I should put a talk at devconf 14:17:14 which would force a blog post or two 14:17:16 wdyt? 14:17:25 is this too "inside baseball" for a non-Fedora event? 14:18:04 I am in talks with the Defensive programmig guide folks about getting them on board with that resurrected text 14:18:12 and commops is looking at doing a publishing repo as well 14:18:25 that's all I have on my mind - more questions? 14:18:56 I think it's good for Devconf if we can make part of it about how other projects could use a similar system 14:19:06 like, maybe CentOS to start 14:19:07 brb 14:19:17 yep 14:19:19 my thoughts too 14:19:48 randomuser, is working on content improvement ideas and I hope that leads to greater support for new contributors 14:19:54 we are missing a contributor guide - needs to be done 14:20:07 bexelbie: a docs contributor guide, or a general one? 14:20:09 Release Notes seem to be working well with a workflow we did on the fly - so we will probably just build on that 14:20:15 docs contribution guide 14:20:26 that does seem ... catch-22ish 14:20:26 bexelbie: i think devconf won't reach the fedora community... 14:20:28 we need general contributor work done too - I suspect join and others will have opinions 14:20:42 * mattdm notes time. more on this topic or move on? 14:20:49 * bexelbie is good 14:21:09 okay next more bexelbie-on-the-spot :) 14:21:12 #topic Budget: What are we doing with it? What about next FY? 14:21:47 there are several proposed FADs none have budgets 14:21:57 where are they proposed? 14:22:04 in their various working groups 14:22:21 I know of CommOps, Diversity, Mindshare, council (though the last two may be off the table) 14:22:37 I have a nascent idea for one more but haven't had time to review it with myself :P 14:22:51 modularity wants one too.. but can't figure out when 14:22:55 there is a proposal to do some centralized usb key ordering to reduce costs and get some keys to go with federators 14:23:06 ok, can we stop calling "ideas WGs have" as things that are proposed? 14:23:16 a proposal means there's something to review 14:23:32 jwb fair :) 14:23:46 Do we need a call for concrete proposals? 14:23:53 Like with an end-of-month deadline? 14:24:10 I suspect mid December is more realistic .. given holidays 14:24:28 Makes sense. 14:24:38 The ambassador regions look like they have very little planned for end of Q3 and Q4 - they appear to all be heading to an underspend 14:25:00 ! 14:25:04 I haven't heard additional ideas from Mindshare - I need to verify that Diversity put their outreachy spend in the system 14:25:05 bexelbie: calendar Qs? or rht calendar? 14:25:20 This drives me crazy with all of the drama about perceived "budget cuts" when we put forth the budget in the first place 14:25:24 Fedora FY quarters langdon (aligns with RHT) 14:25:26 x3mboy: feel free to jump in :) 14:25:59 As ambassador, my full energy in this 2 months (ending the year) are focused in the F27 release 14:26:05 And doing some RPs 14:26:20 And I'm pretty sure that almost all regions though the same way 14:26:27 i suspect if we get a bunch of proposals mid-December we're going to wind up ignoring them until after the new year 14:26:55 x3mboy, I agree, however RPs are rarely large budget spends - so I was focused on things that move that needle 14:26:59 I am hugely +1 on RPs 14:27:26 I have heard some commentary about regional swag orders but have seen no proposals 14:28:21 jwb: Yeah, we'll need to make sure we have a concerted effort from the council to not ignore them 14:28:48 RP = "release party"? 14:28:52 yes 14:28:53 i am not sure why tday is that much of a worry here.. 14:29:14 the groups you are talking about are fairly strongly not usa .. 14:29:24 however.. we also have a release too 14:29:58 i guess i was just wondering "early december" might be better than mid.. to avoid holidays 14:30:04 yes 14:30:43 langdon, the council theoretically can have more flexibility than working groups ... it is a more defined smaller group 14:31:06 .... 14:31:09 you lost me bexelbie 14:31:43 * mattdm notes ten minute mark. +1, 0, or -1 to continue on budget? 14:31:46 * langdon looks forward to xmas with the council in the seychelles 14:31:49 +1 to continue 14:32:06 what is the outcome we want on this subject? 14:32:14 I have no more budget comments - budget.fedoraproject.org is updated 14:32:24 the flock hotel bill finally settled 14:33:04 Outcome: are we in crisis with a bunch of unspent money even though we clearly *could* use money to do useful things? 14:33:39 if the answer is yes, still, then who is doing something about it? :) 14:34:03 i think so we are close .. bex's page shows more than 1/2 unspent and we are 5 months left of the fy 14:34:24 assuming i counted correctly.. can never remember if march is this fy or next 14:34:30 langdon, my concern is that I don't see spend for those 5 months being proposed, planned and talkeda bout 14:34:33 Also, what's the process for requesting next year's budget? I think the process decause and I invented is not happening (that was based around the expectation of requests from ambassadors being in by *now*) 14:34:34 March is next FY 14:34:41 we have 4 months including this one 14:35:14 and no more flocks :) 14:35:18 mattdm we didn't follow it this year so I think the belief is that we had changed the process 14:35:21 do we want to use some of those funds to bring fedora members to devconf for fedora day? 14:35:31 sort of a concentrated, larger FAD? 14:35:45 I'd be in favor of that if there are objectives 14:35:58 * bexelbie debates saying it'd be a flock tick/tock to upset mattdm 14:36:05 bexelbie: hah 14:36:32 I think that's a decent approach. We can make the Fedora day really mean something 14:36:35 i think that would be cool.. especially if groups could organize a work day or two around it 14:36:55 it'd probably need to fall between devconf and fosdem 14:37:00 I can't say others regions, but LATAM freak out about the FUDCon line not being mandatory for the budget 14:37:08 based on my knowledge of other people's calendars 14:37:17 Even after it was really good explained to us by bexelbie 14:37:19 x3mboy, it was also never asked for ... 14:37:49 #info We're considering using budget to bring Fedora people to Devconf in February 14:38:28 x3mboy: I'd love to see a proposal for something new, replacing FUDCon with a confernece tailored for LATAM user and potential contributor audiences 14:39:37 * langdon thinks bexelbie and mattdm have more context on this.. i don't understand x3mboy comment about "fudcon line" .. but not sure i have too 14:39:56 * langdon hates when he mixes first and third person :/ 14:39:57 mattdm, well, honestly mee too 14:40:14 bexelbie let's you and I come up with a draft message calling for formal fad proposals, and post to commblog? 14:40:16 langdon, LATAM and APAC were bothered that there wasn't a forced allocation of money for FUDCon. Instead council asked for proposals for what makes sense - as FUDcons didn't seem to 14:40:25 +1 mattdm 14:40:33 bexelbie: ahh i see.. 14:40:33 okay now we have an action :) 14:40:43 let's go to next topic 14:40:48 #topic Upcoming Elections 14:40:54 #undo 14:40:54 Removing item from minutes: 14:41:03 oh, sorry 14:41:07 yes langdon? :) 14:41:07 mattdm: i also want to see something about fad at devconf.. or devconf in general.. 14:41:25 jwb: hey, you and langdon want to put together a proposal for that? :) 14:41:42 ha.. i weaved when i should have dodged 14:41:53 :) 14:42:20 sure 14:42:28 jwb, mattdm i can work on that sometime in the next few weeks.. but no sooner.. 14:42:32 awesome. now we have *two* actions :) 14:42:49 that seems fine. bexelbie, when do we need to be purchasing travel? 14:43:13 3-4 weeks out is usually considered good 14:43:20 ok, so no problem there. 14:43:24 so we need to get this out there by December to get it going, imho 14:43:32 *nod* 14:43:36 langdon, jwb if you can start drafting comments, mattdm and I may be able to help you shape it 14:43:41 +1 14:43:45 okay, next topic for realz 14:43:50 +1 14:43:53 #topic Upcoming Elections 14:43:56 IMO there is no need to do anything at the moment 14:43:58 We are in the period when we collect questions for Questionaire 14:44:02 Once F27 is released we will start with nominations and voting and ... etc... 14:44:12 jkurik: where are the questions being collected? 14:44:33 as usual 14:44:35 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections/Questionnaire 14:45:13 cool, okay, thanks. do nominations start right on release day? 14:45:25 no, one week after GA 14:45:38 did we decide on whether the questionnaire is mandatory? 14:45:43 any process changes from last time around? 14:46:00 the community was pretty clear it should be mandatory.. i don't know if a decision was made 14:46:04 we changed the periods 14:46:33 https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/135#comment-467523 14:46:44 proposal: the questionairre is mandatory for all elections; if it's not done in time, you won't be on the ballot 14:47:01 except "questionnaire" 14:47:07 +1 14:47:12 +1 14:47:17 can we send out reminders 2 wks and 1wk out? 14:47:21 I believe we have agreed on the following proposal: 14:47:21 (that's not a word anyone can actually spell without looking up each time) 14:47:23 Positions elected by generally by the Fedora community (FPCA+1 voting requirement) are required to complete an election interview article which will be linked in the elections application. Positions elected by a subset of the Fedora community (FPCA+specific group(s)) must complete an interview or whatever other requirements are put forward by their electing groups. 14:47:34 jkurik: oh, good for us. 14:48:09 memory is hard :) thank you! 14:48:21 okay, let's move on to Modular Server 14:48:24 because, clock 14:48:33 #topic Fedora Server and Modularity 14:48:38 We have some stable composes at least 14:48:40 langdon: update? 14:48:42 we have a beta rc! 14:48:42 https://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/compose/27/ 14:48:45 \o/ 14:48:57 is it likely that we will have that ready to go at the same time as overall GA? 14:49:06 that might simplify the story 14:49:06 actually.. we have had a few.. qa is testing .. no current open blockers 14:49:23 we have go no-go on thurs and it is looking pretty promising 14:49:41 also: I see that the decision came down to brand it as "Fedora Modular Server" rather than just "Fedora Server" 14:49:44 but, we are missing screen, so ;) 14:49:49 mattdm: true 14:49:53 do you have tmux? 14:49:57 jwb: yes 14:49:59 to help user realize that Things are Weird and Different and Screen Might Be Missing 14:50:07 alias screen=tmux 14:50:09 problem solved 14:50:15 or put screen in the same module 14:50:16 and ... i meant to include screen .. but dropped the ball.. so we might have it for ga 14:50:39 HACKS 14:50:43 now you don't have to type ctrl-aa all the time just to get a normal ctrl-a to go to the beginning of the line 14:50:55 mattdm: EXACTLY 14:51:08 robyduck: is there more you need for the websites with this? 14:51:09 moar questions? 14:51:18 ok, widening the question a bit, how many other common server-ish packages aren't in a module? 14:51:21 mo did comment on the effort for her team 14:51:46 jwb: that is a very hard question.. like do you have a list? cause everyone's list is different 14:51:56 but my guess is "most are there" 14:51:59 langdon: also, adamw suggested that someone talk to mbriza about the media creator and how we want Fedora Server to be presented 14:52:06 mattdm: no, we are fine with everything 14:52:10 langdon: i guess i'll take a todo to look myself. 14:52:10 jwb: I believe it is the reason why we are releasing the Modular Beta to let users to tell us 14:52:18 And I did and mbriza had no idea so... that's a todo. :) 14:52:27 it's beta, so it's fine for now 14:52:36 yeah.. i saw that.. but i gotta figure out the answer 14:52:44 *nod* 14:52:46 langdon: adamw asked an interesting question about upgrades... 14:52:55 * langdon has some rough internal deadlines at the moment which isn't helping 14:53:01 langdon: namely if someone has f26 Server installed and does an upgrade... what do they get? 14:53:16 right now, I'm 97% sure that they will get F27 Server 14:53:21 i guessed the answer was "non-Edition f27" 14:53:26 mattdm: that doesn't exist 14:53:27 which does not nominally exist 14:53:31 jwb: we discussed that at length during the server meeting.. no complete conclusion.. but in progress 14:53:39 right, except in practice it might still 14:53:51 langdon: ok. what i would suggest is that upgrades don't go to modular server 14:53:52 mattdm: I have a doubt on having F27 Server images on dl.fp.o (traditional server) 14:53:54 mattdm: discussing explicitly putting in a package to switch it 14:53:58 I agree that "non-Edition F27" is what it *should* do 14:54:04 ohh.. wait.. i may be misremembering 14:54:06 mattdm: right 14:54:10 it is in the server meeting minutes 14:54:24 This seems likely to be one of the things that sgallagh is on top of :) 14:54:33 because we decided we had to decide in case we had to do something for tradtional release 14:54:41 * sgallagh looks up 14:55:14 robyduck: as I understand it, it's more work to _stop_ making them, so they'll be there but we won't tell anyone :-/ 14:55:15 sgallagh: what was the final conclusion on the server-26->27 upgrade experience 14:55:38 a 14:55:40 GREED: Upgrade bugs from Fedora 26 Server Edition to Fedora 27 do 14:55:40 ok 14:55:42 not block the release of either F27 or F27 Modular. We will address 14:55:43 langdon: afaik the decision was to deliver the traditional release but not do any advertising 14:55:43 (attempt to fix, at least document) issues with dnf upgrade from 14:55:45 Fedora 26 Server to Fedora 27 non-modular packages on a best-effort 14:55:46 basis. We currently intend to provide a recommended upgrade path 14:55:48 from Fedora 26 Server to Fedora 28 at the time of Fedora 28 release. 14:55:49 (sgallagh, 21:42:27) 14:55:51 "Upgrade bugs from Fedora 26 Server Edition to Fedora 27 do not block the release of either F27 or F27 Modular. We will address (attempt to fix, at least document) issues with dnf upgrade from Fedora 26 Server to Fedora 27 non-modular packages on a best-effort basis. We currently intend to provide a recommended upgrade path from Fedora 26 Server to Fedora 28 at the time of Fedora 28 release." 14:56:20 sgallagh: had a much better c/p 14:56:27 sgallagh + bexelbie: how do we get that in the release notes? 14:56:28 I agree with robyduck that the non-modular media should probably be trimmed from dl.fp.o if it's reasonably uncomplicated 14:56:55 mattdm, a PR or Issue in pagure.io/fedora-docs/release-notes 14:56:58 * jwb squints at sgallagh's text 14:57:01 sgallagh: because of this whole Truth of the Compose thing, we can't trim stuff we make without drawing the ire of adamw and dgilmore :) 14:57:19 * bexelbie doesn't believe we have any release notes content for F27 Modular Server 14:57:20 sgallagh: if i'm reading that correctly, it means f26->f27 upgrades do NOT move to f27 modular server? 14:57:20 my doubt is because people know that website address and I saw in some forums that users go and get these images 14:57:30 jwb: That is correct 14:57:35 sgallagh: great. thank you 14:57:36 robyduck: yeah, not so great 14:57:44 More to the point, we don't actually have a mechanism to attempt it at all 14:58:00 sgallagh, can you find someone to make the release notes? 14:58:07 sgallagh: right. i do like the implication that it needs to be sorted out for f28 though 14:58:13 possibly throw langdon under this bus too? :) 14:58:17 jwb +1 14:58:18 BUS 14:58:26 * langdon reads scrollback 14:58:52 langdon: need pagure.io/fedora-docs/release-notes issue or PR release-notesing what's happening with Server upgrades 14:58:52 mattdm: I suppose that probably should be me, but I don't know if I can juggle it. 14:58:56 mattdm: we can change the pungi-config to not produce instlal media 14:59:10 * sgallagh notes that on top of everything, he's coming down ill today. 14:59:27 langdon: Too late, if we're Go tomorrow 14:59:43 mattdm: ohh .. i have that issue already 14:59:48 yeah, we'll have to do that for final. 14:59:52 langdon to do the release notes? 14:59:59 mattdm: yes 15:00:03 i think so 15:00:07 * langdon digs 15:00:18 yay! okay, that one is now very urgent :) 15:00:24 and we are at time for the meeting 15:00:34 I promise to do my diversity homework before next meeting 15:00:50 * jkurik brb 15:01:02 anything else? 15:01:14 mattdm: sorry.. im confused 15:01:15 jkurik is starting the next meeting so we have a minute or two before he gets back :) 15:01:20 why is it urgent? 15:01:32 what isn't at this point? :) 15:01:37 jwb: point 15:01:44 i need to drop. good meeting everyone 15:01:52 see you jwb 15:01:52 but the deadline for server release notes is at least a few weeks away, right? 15:01:57 or by tuesday? 15:02:13 langdon: We need to have something in place for the traditional release about the upgrade path 15:02:19 because people WILL attempt this on Server 15:02:24 langdon: yeah, we need it for tuesday 15:02:40 which means somewhat _before_ tuesday so it can get in the release notes on the website 15:02:56 ohh.. so not release notes.. traditional-fedora-not-releasing-server-notes 15:02:59 it's already too late to get in the release notes which get packaged into the distro 15:03:03 which is bexelbie's fault 15:03:18 langdon: well, release notes for Traditional Fedora 15:03:40 and with that, time to end meeting 15:03:42 mattdm: yeah.. but it doesn't describe anything about the release of modular server.. per se 15:03:59 langdon: nope. :) 15:04:13 3 15:04:14 mattdm: i do NOT currently have a ticket for that :/ 15:04:15 2 15:04:17 1 15:04:21 luckily i have days .. 15:04:23 * mattdm makes langdon a ticket 15:04:27 #endmeeting