14:01:13 <mattdm> #startmeeting Council (2017-11-15)
14:01:13 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Nov 15 14:01:13 2017 UTC.  The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:01:13 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:01:13 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2017-11-15)'
14:01:15 <mattdm> #meetingname council
14:01:15 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
14:01:17 <mattdm> #chair mattdm jkurik jwb langdon robyduck bexelbie stefw
14:01:17 <zodbot> Current chairs: bexelbie jkurik jwb langdon mattdm robyduck stefw
14:01:19 <mattdm> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
14:01:29 <langdon> .hello2
14:01:30 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@redhat.com>
14:01:33 <mattdm> i'm listening to a big another meeting as this goes on
14:01:47 <mattdm> that meeting is *supposed* to be done but is showing no sign of stopping :)
14:01:49 <jkurik> .hello2
14:01:50 <zodbot> jkurik: jkurik 'Jan Kurik' <jkurik@redhat.com>
14:01:57 <bexelbie__> .hello bex
14:01:58 <zodbot> bexelbie__: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bex@pobox.com>
14:02:10 * bexelbie__ is on a borrowed laptop - mine has been impressed for demo duty
14:02:24 <mattdm> nice
14:03:00 <mattdm> jwb may be distracted by the same meeting I'm listening to
14:03:13 <jwb> sorry, yes
14:03:15 <langdon> mattdm: i think this is the last thing in the agenda
14:03:32 <mattdm> robyduck, you around?
14:03:33 <langdon> bexelbie__: where you at? like demos where?
14:04:01 <robyduck> .hello robyduck
14:04:02 * bexelbie__ is @ buildstuff.lt
14:04:02 <zodbot> robyduck: robyduck 'Robert Mayr' <robyduck@gmail.com>
14:04:03 * mattdm waits for robyduck, because basically everything I put on the agenda I want him included in
14:04:05 <mattdm> oh good :)
14:04:15 <mattdm> Let's move ahead with the proposed agenda
14:04:19 <mattdm> #topic Agenda
14:04:21 <bexelbie__> we have a joint Fedora/CentOS booth and are talking about those plus containers, openshift, cockpit, patternfly, etc.\
14:04:27 <mattdm> 1. Mindshare is go: https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/142
14:04:29 <mattdm> 2. 3rd-party software: https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/121
14:04:31 <mattdm> 3. Diversity Advisor: https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/137
14:04:33 <mattdm> 4. New Docs: https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/117
14:04:36 <mattdm> anything else to add?
14:04:45 <mattdm> anyone hate these topics and want to defer any of them? :)
14:05:29 <mattdm> ok. :)
14:05:31 * bexelbie__ is good
14:05:38 <mattdm> #topic Mindshare is Go
14:05:51 <mattdm> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/142
14:05:58 <mattdm> this is just a note that the above is approved, really
14:06:08 <mattdm> it had a ton of +1s and no -1s (or 0s) like three weeks ago
14:06:16 <mattdm> but I officially closed it as approved now
14:06:20 <mattdm> thanks and congrats robyduck
14:06:25 <robyduck> cool
14:06:27 <mattdm> robyduck do you have anything to add?
14:06:32 <jwf> .hello jflory7
14:06:33 <zodbot> jwf: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' <jflory7@gmail.com>
14:06:42 <mattdm> hey jwf!
14:06:46 * robyduck already started to work with the teams regarding elections and representatives
14:06:48 * jwf waves
14:06:59 <langdon> speech speech!
14:07:01 <langdon> ;)
14:07:03 <mattdm> heh
14:07:22 <mattdm> #info work is in progress with elections and representatives from various teams under mindshare
14:07:47 <mattdm> anything else? anything you need from us?
14:08:04 <jwf> robyduck++ Looking forward to supporting you with the Mindshare initiative.
14:08:04 <zodbot> jwf: Karma for robyduck changed to 5 (for the f27 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:08:04 <robyduck> mattdm: no, I guess it's all under control for now
14:08:10 <mattdm> \o/
14:08:27 <mattdm> robyduck: congratulations on another fedora release website release, too, by the way :)
14:08:33 <langdon> robyduck++
14:08:33 <zodbot> langdon: Karma for robyduck changed to 6 (for the f27 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:08:34 <mattdm> okay, next topic
14:08:35 <robyduck> Ambassadors will be the most tricky part, but I created a specific page to start discussions about representatives
14:08:45 * langdon realizes we are in new cookie cycle!
14:08:54 <mattdm> heh, yes, more cookies for all
14:09:10 <robyduck> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mindshare/Representatives
14:09:11 * langdon notes that is not the only thing exciting about a new fedora release ;)
14:09:55 <robyduck> jwf: thanks for willing to support MIndshare!!
14:10:21 <mattdm> robyduck: how are ambassadors proposing to select their representatives?
14:10:33 * mattdm undoes earlier "next topic" suggestion :)
14:10:59 <jkurik> robyduck: I expect the F27 elections are just for the 2 elected seats (from the Mindshare perspective)
14:10:59 <langdon> mattdm: isn't it in that wiki page?
14:11:06 <robyduck> mattdm: I joined some meetings (LATAM and EMEA) and explained that, every region should not have more than 2-3 candidates, and we discuss this in a specific pagure ticket
14:11:17 <jkurik> robyduck: not for the team representatives
14:11:21 <mattdm> langdon: no the wiki page is just a list of people
14:11:38 <robyduck> jkurik: yes, elections is another thing. Representatives need to be ready by the announcement of the results though
14:11:41 <langdon> ahh i see.. i think i misunderstood the q.. /me needs more coffee
14:11:54 <jkurik> robyduck: ok, thanks for the confirmation
14:12:30 <mattdm> #info mindshare has the same model as council, with some "at large" elected seats plus appointed once from teams
14:13:10 <mattdm> okay, now I think we're ready for next topic
14:13:18 <mattdm> #topic 3rd Party Software Policy Proposal
14:13:27 <mattdm> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/121
14:13:46 <mattdm> robyduck: as I understand it, desktop team came up with a compromise you feel is workable?
14:14:13 <robyduck> there was a discussion off ticket, and the solution is quite nice, so if we are all still +1 this could get a go
14:14:40 <mattdm> cool.
14:14:42 <langdon> i liked it
14:14:45 <bexelbie__> +1
14:14:54 <jkurik> +1
14:14:56 <mattdm> okay, anyone have further reservations?
14:14:57 <langdon> i think the "wording to be determined" is gonna drag this on still though
14:15:13 <kwizart> I don't think there is anything new with that proposal, It's still undocumented
14:15:24 <mattdm> yeah there are a few "tbd" sections that need... tbd.
14:15:30 <langdon> i would wait on further commentary until the strawman/mockup is done
14:15:51 <mattdm> let's mark _this_ as approved, and then say we'd like sign-off on the unfinished bits. sound reasonable?
14:15:52 <cschalle> wording? what was wrong with the wording robyduck put into the ticket?
14:15:53 <robyduck> langdon: yes, but I think these are details now we can work out and document
14:16:34 <langdon> cschalle: the "wording that appears to users" .. i didn't see that in the ticket.. maybe i missed it?
14:17:24 <cschalle> ah ok, well there is some wording that was shipped with F27, if people want to see changes/improvements I think the simplest thing would be to just file a bugzilla with a suggestion
14:17:39 <langdon> bexelbie__ has a proposal for it here: https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/121#comment-450617 but i suspect it will still require more bikeshedding ;)
14:18:11 <langdon> i thought it was supposed to be in f27.. but i can't find it.. where is it?
14:18:22 <cschalle> langdon, it should appear in GNOME initial setup
14:18:29 <cschalle> I upgraded so I haven't seen it
14:18:37 <mattdm> let's not spend too much time working through _future_ details here
14:18:49 <langdon> hmmm... i did a fresh install.. but beta.. but i don't remember seeing it ..
14:19:00 <langdon> mattdm: +1 ..
14:19:06 <langdon> ill go look at a new install
14:19:42 * langdon still wishes virt-builder did workstation too
14:20:26 <mattdm> Here's my proposed resolution: "This policy is approved. Please create new tickets when the "TBD" sections are to be filled in, or for any major adjustments. Because this is a sensitive area, the council would like input into the final wording of various user-facing texts and etc. and will provide feedback where appropriate."
14:20:43 <jwb> +1
14:20:50 <langdon> +1
14:20:53 <kwizart> mattdm, nope
14:21:14 <robyduck> +1
14:21:16 <kwizart> mattdm, It does not seems reasonable to approve anything, that is obviously not finished
14:21:47 <mattdm> kwizart: please take a look. the current tbd sections are around oci/docker images and flatpaks
14:22:00 <mattdm> and the wording is an implimentation detail
14:22:03 <robyduck> kwizart: we still ask about final wording, I think that's what you also want to have, or?
14:22:33 <bexelbie__> what about saying we agree with the direction of hte proposal and want to get follow up on wording and the TBD sections
14:22:34 <kwizart> mattdm, will you be able to answear which fedora instance is able to approve/deny on 3rd part repos ?
14:22:39 <robyduck> I agree the wording is a detail, which doesn't change the main structure
14:22:50 <mattdm> "fedora instance"?
14:23:13 <langdon> kwizart: i assume you mean edition/spin .. that topic is covered in the ticket
14:23:14 <jwf> +1 to mattdm's proposal.
14:23:21 <kwizart> mattdm, fedora packaging , fesco else ?
14:23:29 <langdon> each one can choose to include.. this only includes for workstation
14:24:25 <mattdm> kwizart this is covered at
14:24:27 <mattdm> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Third_party_software_proposal#Non-universal_approach
14:26:15 <mattdm> I see many +1s from council members. I'd like to make sure everyone's concerns are addressed, but those *are* the binding votes in this meeting
14:26:15 <kwizart> mattdm, so, any SIG would be allowed to introduce 3rd repo, that wouldn't have been checked for copyright violation ?
14:26:22 <mattdm> kwizart: no.
14:26:31 <mattdm> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Third_party_software_proposal#Legal_requirements
14:26:48 <mattdm> kwizart: Please read the document.
14:27:39 <kwizart> mattdm, I don't see copyright violation in this section, and more importantly, I don't see anything in the "process" that would prevent such issue to arrise
14:28:21 <mattdm> kwizart: Is there a particular copyright violation you are concerned with? Of course Fedora follows copyright law
14:28:36 <kwizart> mattdm, specially such kind of issue: https://github.com/negativo17/ffmpeg/issues/1
14:29:07 <mattdm> kwizart: all of those thigns will need to be approved by Fedora Legal
14:29:14 <mattdm> I'm not qualified to have an opinion on it
14:30:08 <mattdm> but the important thing is that the policy *does* cover things needing to be legally okay for Fedora
14:30:09 <kwizart> mattdm, note that there is another thread (fdk-aac review), where this is been discussed, but I really think the current proposal is too vague
14:30:59 <mattdm> Too vague for what? It's quite broad and certainly encompasses this kind of concern.
14:31:11 <langdon> how about this
14:31:15 <kwizart> mattdm, I can agree that this might not be the original intend, but basically, what prevent this proposal to say, A SIG wan't to pick the suse kernel, because it works better than fedora kernel after all ?
14:31:27 <langdon> kwizart: can you file a ticket with your specific language change proposals?
14:31:49 <langdon> otherwise we can go back and forth on this all day
14:32:16 <langdon> i don't think we are done with this issue.. probably ever.. just this ticket
14:32:24 * robyduck agrees with langdon, this is an issue we could talk about separately
14:32:26 <kwizart> langdon, well, my point is that I don't see anything worth fixing, it has to be re-written from start
14:32:29 <langdon> we can always modify the policy when we find bugs
14:32:31 <jwf> Time check, halfway point for the meeting
14:32:36 <langdon> kwizart: so rewrite it
14:32:57 <langdon> we took a stab at it.. if you don't like it .. send patches
14:33:06 <mattdm> kwizart: as far as I know, there's no plan to point at a repo containing that software anyway. if there is, please bring it up to legal at that time
14:33:46 <mattdm> jwf: yeah, thanks for the check. we do have other topics to get to.
14:33:54 <kwizart> mattdm, probably not now, but what about later ? if the policy is accepted, who will control what SIG can do ?
14:34:19 <bexelbie__> There are a lot of checks on this process as a SIG cannot directly cause software to be released
14:34:42 <bexelbie__> also, trying to craft an iron-clad document that has no possible abuse will either kill the goal or cause us to never get it done
14:34:49 <bexelbie__> we have to have faith in our community and patch as we go
14:34:55 <bexelbie__> like we do with the kernel :P
14:34:56 <mattdm> kwizart: do you want a dispute resolution section added? I don't think that's really necessary
14:35:02 <langdon> and.. we have to assume some level of "not sneakiness" on the part of the sigs
14:35:11 <mattdm> And I *strongly* believe the legal section covers your concern.
14:35:27 <jwb> kwizart: if you have fundamental objections to what the proposal is trying to accomplish, you are not going to resolve them here.  the Council is moving forward with this as an experiment.  you are free to disagree.
14:36:22 <mattdm> and if this experiment turns out to be the wrong approach, that's okay. we can change.
14:36:27 <mattdm> let's move to the next topic.
14:36:35 <kwizart> jwb, do you have an objection to say, the KDE SIG use a Suse kernel ?
14:37:01 <jwb> kwizart: nobody is proposing that.  if you are, please make it formally and we can discuss
14:37:24 <mattdm> kwizart: the policy says "RPM packages in a third party repository must not break dependencies or otherwise replace packages provided by official Fedora repositories."
14:37:39 <mattdm> again, please read the proposal you are discussing
14:37:50 <mattdm> let's move on to the next topic
14:38:12 <mattdm> #topic Diversity Advisor
14:38:23 <mattdm> https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/137
14:38:35 <mattdm> and
14:38:37 <mattdm> https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/council-docs/pull-request/8
14:39:10 <mattdm> bexelbie__ suggested moving diversity advisor to the same section as mindshare and engineering, and separating out elected
14:39:24 <mattdm> there's some sense to that, but it's also a bit odd because org chart stuff
14:39:33 <mattdm> so I decided to go for a smaller change here
14:39:38 <mattdm> and we can discuss that bigger change separately
14:39:47 <langdon> i literally read it for the changes.. not the structure.. just color on my lgtm
14:39:56 <mattdm> this meanwhile will allow us go move ahead with actually having someone in the role
14:40:17 * jwf nods
14:40:22 <mattdm> I'm not necessarily opposed to bexelbie__'s suggestion, I just want to start with this so it stops blocking :)
14:40:28 <jwf> I am +1 to the copytext in the PR now
14:40:31 * robyduck likes mattdm's PR
14:40:37 <jwf> I think it's simple and easy to understand…
14:40:59 <robyduck> jwf: I understand it, so yes, it's simple and easy :)
14:41:01 <mattdm> cool, thanks jwf
14:41:03 <mattdm> hah
14:41:06 <jwf> And leaves the flexibility in the Diversity Team to determine the position
14:41:09 <mattdm> anyone opposed?
14:41:12 <jwf> robyduck: Hahahahah
14:41:15 <jwf> +1
14:41:48 <bexelbie__> not opposed
14:42:11 <jwb> apologies, let me review again
14:42:14 <mattdm> okay. merging pr. do we want to leave this ticket open for dicussing larger rearrangement?
14:42:23 <mattdm> jwb: https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/council-docs/pull-request/8#request_diff
14:42:34 * jkurik is not opposed
14:42:36 <bexelbie__> mattdm, I think we close this ticket - new changes == new ticket, imho
14:42:44 <robyduck> I'd suggest to open a new one for larger proposal
14:42:55 <robyduck> bexelbie__: +1
14:42:59 <jwb> mattdm: +1
14:42:59 <mattdm> bexelbie__: ok. new ticket is now in your hands :)
14:43:06 * mattdm merges pr
14:43:08 <jwb> thank you for drafting that
14:43:10 <bexelbie__> mattdm, hahah
14:43:43 <mattdm> bexelbie__: can you refresh the docs site?
14:43:48 * mattdm can't wait for ci/cd here
14:43:57 <jwf> 🎬 🎬 🎬
14:44:07 <bexelbie__> me either
14:44:21 <bexelbie__> I'll republish as soon as I can liberate a box with more than a base Fedora install
14:45:04 <mattdm> sounds good. and on that note...
14:45:14 <mattdm> #topic New Docs
14:45:18 <mattdm> https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/117
14:45:46 <mattdm> this is specifically for me to note that the new docs are live
14:46:04 <mattdm> did anyone notice
14:46:06 <mattdm> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Council
14:46:08 <mattdm> ?
14:46:27 * bexelbie__ did, but I dont think I count for this question
14:46:31 <mattdm> heh.
14:46:41 <mattdm> well, take a look. it now links into the docs site
14:46:58 <mattdm> how about this: did anyone notice https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Project_Wiki?
14:47:10 <mattdm> project BURN_THE_WIKI is underway, jwb :)
14:47:21 <jwb> yay!
14:47:37 <bexelbie__> for this ticket, see https://docs.fedoraproject.org/fedora-project/project/fedora-overview.html
14:47:38 <robyduck> and BURN_THE_WIKI_NOW ?
14:47:55 <mattdm> previously, the wiki front page basically encouraged people to look around the wiki. now it encourages people to go other places, unless the really really actually wanted the wiki
14:47:56 <bexelbie__> #info other groups can easily get their project documentation added to the new docs website
14:48:05 <robyduck> mattdm: we should redirect that page, rather than offering a link
14:48:23 <mattdm> robyduck: I feel squicky about having redirects go out of the wiki
14:49:09 <robyduck> for which reason?
14:49:12 <mattdm> mediawiki doesn't allow any in-wiki redirects to out-of-wiki for obvious spam reasons, so we'd have to do it at the webserver level
14:49:35 <mattdm> isn't it odd to be browsing around the wiki and you click on some wiki like and suddenly you're on another site?
14:49:36 <robyduck> yes, server level I mean
14:49:55 <mattdm> if you don't think that's weird I'm happy to be wrong
14:50:00 <mattdm> becaues the wiki redirects are ugly
14:50:07 <mattdm> i mean, non-redirect links
14:50:22 <langdon> I think it is weird without an interstitial
14:50:44 <robyduck> langdon: yes, right
14:50:52 <mattdm> robyduck: can we do that?
14:51:01 <x3mboy> !
14:51:05 <robyduck> them let's keep it like that, but we ened more stuff moving away from the wiki
14:51:09 <robyduck> :P
14:51:11 <mattdm> x3mboy: jump right in
14:51:17 <langdon> Can be just flat html.. So pretty easy
14:51:19 <x3mboy> mattdm, sorry, wrogn channel
14:51:23 <mattdm> x3mboy: ha
14:51:32 <robyduck> mattdm: I'll think about something we can do
14:51:43 <mattdm> robyduck: awesome, thanks. that would make this more smooth
14:52:02 <jwb> langdon: interstitial?
14:52:04 <x3mboy> robyduck> and BURN_THE_WIKI_NOW ? <-- No :'(
14:52:20 <langdon> We could also use the interstitial as advertising for the new docs style
14:52:23 <robyduck> just because half of the people who get a link will not click on it, but move away to another wiki page
14:52:38 <mattdm> x3mboy: not _really_ burning it. just focusing it as contributor workspace rather than end-user docs
14:52:40 <langdon> *site?
14:53:02 <x3mboy> mattdm, I know, but I'm a wiki lover :D
14:53:07 <mattdm> jwb: as engineering/fesco rep, can you take on https://docs.fedoraproject.org/fedora-project/subprojects/fesco.html ?
14:53:19 <mattdm> and robyduck same for https://docs.fedoraproject.org/fedora-project/subprojects/mindshare.html
14:53:44 <robyduck> ok
14:53:46 <langdon> jwb those pages that say 'hey you are leaving the site to go to new site' in this case "moar better site"
14:53:49 <mattdm> And I'd love for there to be a "FESCo" docs section, with all of the various approved procedures and policies
14:53:54 <x3mboy> !
14:54:05 <jwb> mattdm: yes.  i'll assign myself a ticket
14:54:06 <mattdm> they also have a full page video advertisement which auto-plays
14:54:08 <mattdm> jwb: thanks
14:54:12 <jwb> langdon: ah, yes
14:54:17 <x3mboy> I offer my self to translate the WGs and SIGs pages to the new docs, but I didn't have the time yet
14:54:31 <x3mboy> Also, I'm having some git branching issues
14:54:49 <mattdm> x3mboy: awesome
14:54:49 <langdon> mattdm we can use one of the modularity ones! ;)
14:54:58 <bexelbie__> x3mboy, I am home basically full time starting next week - lets get some time to work on this together
14:55:17 <x3mboy> If I have another week to catch up tasks I can get it don
14:55:18 <mattdm> also related to this, the overview page https://docs.fedoraproject.org/fedora-project/project/fedora-overview.html
14:55:22 <x3mboy> bexelbie__, ok coll!
14:55:24 <mattdm> this is https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/117
14:55:28 <x3mboy> s/coll/cool/g
14:55:31 <mattdm> and no one objected so it is live
14:55:38 <jwf> Oh, I lost track of time for this topic
14:55:47 <jwf> bexelbie++ Thank you for support in helping other teams with this too
14:55:48 <zodbot> jwf: Karma for bex changed to 1 (for the f27 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:56:04 <mattdm> jwf: this is the last topic, I think
14:56:14 <jwf> CommOps has a ticket for us to work on making our own internal team docs, and then we want to create a campaign to help other sub-projects write their own local docs in the same style
14:56:29 <mattdm> bexelbie__: do this please https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/docs-fp-o/issue/43 :)
14:57:04 <bexelbie__> will look at it when I get to my machine :)
14:57:56 <mattdm> ok. so that's it for docs for now. once the CI is in place, it's time to really start evangelizing this
14:58:44 <bexelbie__> start now
14:58:49 <bexelbie__> I'll beat on bstinson :)
14:59:00 <jwf> This is what CommOps would like to help with specifically, the evangelism part :P
14:59:09 <mattdm> jwf++
14:59:10 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for jflory7 changed to 4 (for the f27 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:59:16 <jwf> It's one of our primary goals for 2018
14:59:22 <mattdm> ok, ending meeting in 30 seconds
14:59:31 <jwf> On time?!? Never… :D
14:59:37 <jwf> mattdm++ Thanks for chairing!
14:59:37 <zodbot> jwf: Karma for mattdm changed to 2 (for the f27 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:59:57 <mattdm> on time :)
14:59:59 <mattdm> #endmeeting