14:02:19 <mattdm> #startmeeting Council (2018-01-10)
14:02:19 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jan 10 14:02:19 2018 UTC.  The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:02:19 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:02:19 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2018-01-10)'
14:02:21 <mattdm> #meetingname council
14:02:21 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
14:02:21 * cverna will lurk around then
14:02:23 <mattdm> #chair mattdm jkurik jwb langdon robyduck bexelbie dperpeet
14:02:23 <zodbot> Current chairs: bexelbie dperpeet jkurik jwb langdon mattdm robyduck
14:02:25 <mattdm> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
14:02:35 <jkurik> .hello2
14:02:36 <zodbot> jkurik: jkurik 'Jan Kurik' <jkurik@redhat.com>
14:02:42 <mattdm> hi everyone!
14:03:13 <langdon> .hello2
14:03:14 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@redhat.com>
14:03:15 <dperpeet> .hello2
14:03:16 <robyduck> .hello robyduck
14:03:20 <zodbot> dperpeet: dperpeet 'None' <dperpeet@redhat.com>
14:03:23 <zodbot> robyduck: robyduck 'Robert Mayr' <robyduck@gmail.com>
14:03:30 <bexelbie> .hello bex
14:03:31 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bex@pobox.com>
14:04:05 <mattdm> welcome y'all!
14:04:29 <mattdm> ooh Amita should be in the list too
14:04:33 <mattdm> #chair Amita
14:04:33 <zodbot> Current chairs: Amita bexelbie dperpeet jkurik jwb langdon mattdm robyduck
14:04:36 <bexelbie> that's "howdy y'all"
14:04:51 <mattdm> hold on a second while I update the wiki page so I don't forget next time
14:05:07 <mattdm> also hmmm josh does not seem to be in channel
14:05:35 * x3mboy is on spy mode
14:06:18 <jwb> hi, apologies
14:06:24 <mattdm> #topic Agenda
14:06:26 <bexelbie> o/
14:06:40 <mattdm> Okay, this is a Tickets and Ongoing meeting
14:07:02 <langdon> if we had people other than council members.. it would be.. howdy all y'all
14:07:15 <mattdm> #info The council aims to be active and not just reacting to tickets, but we have regular "Tickets and Ongoing" meetings to make sure we don't drop things on the floor
14:07:24 <langdon> quick q.. when is the decision for flock due?
14:07:32 <mattdm> #info open tickets can be found at https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issues?status=Open&order_key=priority&order=desc
14:07:43 <bexelbie> langdon, we are working on validating the bid that was selected before announccing it publicly
14:07:47 <mattdm> langdon: you mean, when is the Flock committee going to announce?
14:07:49 <bexelbie> so RSN
14:08:03 <langdon> yeab
14:08:10 <mattdm> basically jen madriaga has to validate that we're not insane :)
14:08:20 <langdon> ha.. good luck!
14:08:41 <jwb> we are all insane
14:08:48 <mattdm> okay, so, #agenda, though :)
14:09:23 <mattdm> I was talking to bex and we picked a handful of tickets to close off
14:09:38 <mattdm> also right before the meeting we closed another handful which seemed obvious
14:09:39 <bexelbie> That's a peck in metric
14:09:53 <mattdm> which is the kind of thing having a meeting forces, so that's The Process Working :)
14:10:02 <mattdm> Here's the list:
14:10:07 <mattdm> 1.  #166 Community domain request for Fedora Zhongwen User Group
14:10:18 <mattdm> 2.  #167 Request for approval for APAC vFAD 2018
14:10:34 <mattdm> 3. #143 Mindshare FAD
14:10:46 <mattdm> (Note that that's a private ticket right now....)
14:10:52 <mattdm> 4.
14:10:54 <mattdm> #126 Direction of Ambassador Program
14:11:01 <mattdm> (whee, that's not small....)
14:11:07 <mattdm> 5.
14:11:10 <mattdm> #155 We need to re-charter the Modularity objective
14:11:15 <mattdm> 6.
14:11:17 <mattdm> #146 Council Members please submit a short bio
14:11:25 <mattdm> those last two are going to be very short. :)
14:11:28 * bexelbie didn't include that one on the list :D
14:11:39 <mattdm> Is there anything else urgent anyone sees?
14:11:45 <robyduck> is this the agenda for the next month?
14:12:10 <robyduck> :)
14:12:14 <mattdm> robyduck: ha
14:12:26 <bexelbie> month, that's metric for an hour, right?
14:12:41 <mattdm> okay, clearly, let's get started. :)
14:12:51 <mattdm> #topic Community domain request for Fedora Zhongwen User Group
14:13:12 <mattdm> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/166
14:13:25 <robyduck> I think the domain request is pretty good, they would need the license agreement signed
14:13:59 <mattdm> it seems reasonable to me
14:14:26 <mattdm> #action mattdm to ask legal for the paperwork
14:14:30 <mattdm> anyone opposed to this?
14:14:40 <robyduck> the fcomm.org subdomain is just a redirect we do from infra side
14:14:56 <bexelbie> I believe we should try to provide hosting, but that is a policy issue, of which there are ramifications I may not appreciate
14:15:30 <bexelbie> I'd just note that China has some things that require a physical human's ID to be tied to them which makes somethings harder.  That may not be true with hosting, I don't know.
14:15:56 <mattdm> bexelbie: Yeah, I don't have a full understanding of all of those issues.
14:16:06 <mattdm> In any case, that doesn't block this request.
14:16:14 <bexelbie> Not today, I think we should revisit why we prohibit hosting - but yes, lets not block
14:16:24 <mattdm> Do you want to make a ticket about that? :)
14:16:31 <bexelbie> and I suggest we encourage a waiver ticket to be opened if this is a problem on the hosting side in country
14:16:40 * bexelbie will open a general ticket
14:17:00 <mattdm> thanks :)
14:17:25 <mattdm> okay, that was simple
14:17:31 <mattdm> #topic APAC VFAD
14:17:37 <mattdm> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/167
14:17:54 <mattdm> As noted, since this is a VFAD, there's no budget request...
14:18:02 <mattdm> I'm not sure council approval is even needed.
14:18:12 <robyduck> nod nod
14:18:13 <mattdm> Do we have a policy saying we need to approve VFADs?
14:18:19 <mattdm> if we do, we should drop that policy :)
14:18:46 <bexelbie> I think the confusion was because normally FADs have a budget associated with them
14:19:07 <bexelbie> we have an open ticket on FAD policy, I'll add a note to note that vFADs and budgetless FADs do not need approvals - when we fix that
14:19:16 <langdon> are we sure v-cookies and v-pizza have no cost?!? :)
14:19:20 <bexelbie> https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/138
14:19:45 * robyduck agrees to both, to vFad and to drop the vFad policy if we have this
14:20:00 <mattdm> done!
14:20:07 <mattdm> bexelbie: thanks for picking all easy tickets :)
14:20:16 <jwb> yeah, i'm not sure why we'd need to approve that
14:20:18 <robyduck> langdon: v-pizza ok, but what about v-beer??
14:20:26 <mattdm> #topic Mindshare FAD
14:20:31 <mattdm> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/143
14:20:32 <langdon> robyduck: point
14:20:42 <mattdm> #info note link is currently council-members only
14:20:51 <mattdm> dperpeet, Amita -- can you see that?
14:21:12 <dperpeet> mattdm, no, I can't
14:21:29 <robyduck> so, that's my thing I guess. There is still the plan to make it happen, we have budget set aside for that
14:21:32 <mattdm> dperpeet: hold on a sec
14:21:39 <mattdm> and yeah, robyduck's thing :)
14:21:46 <robyduck> council member's inputs in the ticket are really welcome
14:22:15 * robyduck wanted to start to make a concrete plan with dates once we have the new Mindshare Committee members elected
14:22:22 <robyduck> (and appointed)
14:22:33 <bexelbie> My comment stands - we need to get it bought before March 1 if you are going to use this year's funding :)
14:22:47 <mattdm> dperpeet: okay you are now in the right group
14:22:54 <mattdm> sorry about that
14:22:56 <robyduck> bexelbie: that's the first condition, yes
14:23:08 <bexelbie> I suggest a "when is good" of the nominees ... it's going to be made from them so that gives a good idea on dates
14:23:13 * langdon wonders why no modularity representation is required in pretty pretty south tyrol :)
14:23:44 <dperpeet> mattdm, can't see it, but don't worry about it now, it'll probably work eventually :)
14:23:52 <mattdm> robyduck: can we make this public?
14:23:58 <robyduck> langdon: we can add that :D
14:24:07 <robyduck> mattdm: yes, sure
14:24:25 <mattdm> #info made public
14:24:32 <mattdm> I think we're generally agreed on the things you wanted to sort out.
14:24:42 <mattdm> and yeah, let's get tickets bought quickly
14:25:03 <mattdm> It is my understanding from Bex that we have a decent amount of remaining budget
14:25:14 <mattdm> And this is high priority for ... me, Fedora, and the Council in general
14:25:20 <langdon> mattdm: +1
14:25:24 <mattdm> So let's do what's needed to make this a success.
14:26:32 <bexelbie> robyduck, let me know how I can help you
14:26:48 <robyduck> bexelbie: sure, thanks!
14:26:56 <mattdm> we also budgeted a big chunk *just* for Mindshare and I don't think that any of that is spent
14:27:00 <mattdm> ($9k)
14:27:10 <robyduck> mattdm: exactly
14:27:19 <robyduck> we will use that for the FAD
14:27:28 <mattdm> so basically I think: robyduck work with bex and spend up to that amount, and if you need more, also work with bexelbie
14:27:35 <bexelbie> #info https://budget.fedoraproject.org/budget/FY18/overall.html
14:27:41 <mattdm> does that sound reasonable to everyone?
14:27:42 <robyduck> oki doki
14:28:03 <bexelbie> +1
14:28:32 <langdon> +1
14:29:24 * mattdm is marking this approved
14:29:42 <mattdm> robyduck: if you *want* to invite langdon you can :)
14:30:20 <mattdm> I'm going to now skip forward to the easy ones :)
14:30:27 <langdon> lol
14:30:37 <mattdm> #topic Council Bios
14:30:44 <mattdm> https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/146
14:30:50 * langdon starts typing bio...
14:31:05 <mattdm> #info all council members please submit a short description of yourself
14:31:15 <mattdm> no need to be humble :)
14:31:31 <mattdm> one day, this will go in your wikipedia article :)
14:32:10 * mattdm grumbles that every minor-league basketball player gets a wikipedia page... you'd think society would care that much about people in open source :)
14:32:16 <langdon> like this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mattdm
14:32:29 <mattdm> langdon: lol
14:32:41 <mattdm> #topic Modularity objective
14:32:46 <mattdm> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/155
14:33:01 <mattdm> this is short because there's still no proposal
14:33:11 <mattdm> but langdon and I are going to work on one, like, *tomorrow*
14:33:23 <langdon> tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow...
14:33:32 <robyduck> :D
14:33:38 <mattdm> but, literally, I'm going into westford and we can rope in sgallagh and get it done.
14:33:38 <langdon> https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/56964/speech-tomorrow-and-tomorrow-and-tomorrow
14:33:39 <bexelbie> Please do
14:33:45 <bexelbie> I think it is critical what with the upcoming demos
14:33:56 * sgallagh ducks
14:34:00 <langdon> yeah.. the change is pretty good.. but it needs to tie back to the mission
14:34:09 <langdon> on me.. to much zelda over xmas
14:34:10 <mattdm> #info the _project_ has been undergoing some serious rethinking, so that's delayed the rechartering....
14:34:24 <mattdm> which is maybe backwards, but the cart was rolling forward
14:34:31 <mattdm> so now we need to chase after it with the proverbial horse
14:34:43 <mattdm> so anyway expect a real proposal for this... RSN.
14:34:48 * langdon will be taking a bus to westford.. not a horse
14:34:48 <sgallagh> Kidding aside, tomorrow is good for me. I have only one meeting (9-10 EST) then I'm available
14:35:08 <mattdm> I think we'll want to handle it in tickets rather than via meetings, though
14:35:14 <mattdm> because of devconf and timing and stuff
14:35:21 <mattdm> so everyone please be ready for that
14:35:23 <bexelbie> This horsepowered canoe better get rechartered soon :D
14:35:34 <mattdm> bexelbie++
14:35:34 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for bex changed to 8 (for the f27 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:35:42 <mattdm> okay, so, now....
14:35:42 <langdon> wait... handle what in tickets?
14:35:53 <mattdm> langdon: when we have an objective proposal
14:36:02 <langdon> oh.. like to ask for review?
14:36:10 <mattdm> yes. review and approval in tickets
14:36:28 <langdon> gotcha.. i agree
14:36:41 <mattdm> how are we doing for actually having a demo for devconf/fosdem?
14:37:01 <Amita> .hello amsharma
14:37:02 <zodbot> Amita: amsharma 'Amita Sharma' <amsharma@redhat.com>
14:37:05 <Amita> sorry to be late
14:37:24 <mattdm> oh hi Amita! welcome!
14:37:29 <langdon> mattdm: also RSN
14:37:47 <langdon> we have some hacked up ones already..  but a prettier one is coming..
14:37:54 <mattdm> langdon: good luck :)
14:38:06 <mattdm> okay, so, let's get to the Ambassador's topic
14:38:08 <langdon> i need to coordinate with sgallagh and geppetto on it.. i think we have 3 different ones in progress :/
14:38:19 <mattdm> #topic Direction of Ambassador Program
14:38:28 <mattdm> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/126
14:38:43 <mattdm> We left this several months ago with
14:38:48 <mattdm> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/ambassadors-fedora-strategy/
14:38:53 <sgallagh> langdon: I haven't started mine, so I'm perfectly happy to collaborate
14:39:03 <mattdm> #info "A proposal: Ambassadors and Fedora strategy"
14:39:23 <mattdm> Which I put a lot of work into and thought was good, and then, like *crickets*, y'all.
14:39:54 <mattdm> robyduck, do you have any thoughts on this?
14:40:20 <robyduck> second
14:40:23 <bexelbie> I am not trying to just push this away, but I think this is a perfect thing to ask Mindshare to work on during their FAD
14:40:29 * mattdm assumes everyone is reading :)
14:40:50 <langdon> didn't i write some of this? i am obviously +1 .. but don't technically have a vote
14:40:57 <robyduck> mattdm: I agree with bexelbie here, this is high priority for Mindshare
14:41:30 <bexelbie> This is where the Ambassador reps to Mindshare (hint hint Ambassadors) need to be involved in repping their folks
14:41:47 * langdon also notes.. if mattdm want the community involved he should have said "all y'all" above .. ./me here making southern slang just a little bit more widespread
14:42:12 * bexelbie looks at langdon then at map then points
14:42:16 <mattdm> langdon: I think I ended up rephrasing all of your words, but your ideas are included :)
14:42:18 <robyduck> and having other teams inside Mindshare can even help to give a better direction to ambassadors, even for their strategy
14:43:46 <mattdm> So what is the specific thing? Ask Mindshare to talk about this at the FAD? Ask Mindshare to talk about it and then tell FAmSCo to adopt it as policy?
14:44:06 <mattdm> Adopt it as Council policy and FAmSCo can follow?
14:44:27 <Amita> Measurable Results in the proposal looks little hard
14:44:28 <mattdm> That's rather top-down, but since there doesn't seem to have been any FAmSCo response, I'm not sure what else we can do
14:44:29 <bexelbie> I suggest: Ask Mindshare to come back with an answer to Council for direction
14:44:33 <robyduck> FAmSCo will not exist anymore
14:44:38 <bexelbie> then adopt policies/set goals as needed
14:44:46 <mattdm> robyduck: Finally :)
14:44:54 <Amita> so Mindshare will work on the same guidelines which are given in the proposal
14:45:01 <x3mboy> !
14:45:06 <robyduck> Mindshare to work it out and get back to the Council for direction
14:45:08 <mattdm> x3mboy: feel free to jump in :)
14:45:09 <bexelbie> I think Mindshare should interpret them and come back with a suggested answer
14:45:18 <mattdm> bexelbie: what is "them"?
14:45:26 <robyduck> bexelbie: yeah, that's it
14:45:28 <Amita> proposal I guess
14:45:31 <bexelbie> the policy ideas in the document that Amita referred to
14:45:37 <mattdm> Amita: I agree that measuring things is hard
14:45:47 <bexelbie> Amita, referred to the policies, you linked the document
14:45:51 <bexelbie> you == mattdm
14:45:56 * bexelbie is having a hard time Englishing today
14:46:40 <jkurik> bexelbie: shall we use a different language for the meeting today ?
14:46:41 <mattdm> But I think it's reasonable to ask for, still.
14:46:55 <langdon> we know bexelbie is outstanding in polish
14:46:55 <x3mboy> I remember this discussion in Latam. Specifically the term "Measurable" looks hard and was hard to implement, some people thought about count new "users" or "contributors" gained per event, calculate expectations of atendees
14:46:58 <bexelbie> Tak, mowimy po Polsku
14:47:11 <x3mboy> And that was kind of war-cause
14:47:18 <mattdm> war-cause?
14:47:27 <x3mboy> motive for a war
14:47:38 <bexelbie> x3mboy, I think that one thing we can ask Mindshare is to help figure out what measurable means.  For one thing we can adopt better language for that
14:47:39 <mattdm> between different people in latam?
14:47:45 <bexelbie> value of outcome, etc.
14:47:49 <mattdm> between fedora and other distros?
14:47:57 <x3mboy> bexelbie, +1
14:48:08 <x3mboy> mattdm, between latam ambassadors
14:48:20 <x3mboy> Some of them agreed the idea, others don't
14:48:22 <Amita> I agree that ambassadors need better guidelines and this proposal can be base of the mindshare group discussion for the same
14:48:47 <mattdm> x3mboy: Okay, I'll bite -- what's the other side?
14:49:05 <robyduck> yeah, sometimes definitions are not clear in other languages or countries and get a wrong interpetation. We can sort that out and MIndshare initially can also answer directly or help to solve problems if they come up, I think.
14:49:40 * mattdm isn't good with other languages, unfortunately
14:49:50 <Amita> we need to clearly mention who is the goto person for the clarifications if needed
14:50:03 <x3mboy> That we can't measure, e.g.: atendees for an event that is not being planned by yourself
14:50:20 <Amita> for example if we are not getting Measurable Results then what we need to improve upon
14:50:39 <mattdm> x3mboy: That's true. Maybe that's not the thing to measure for that event then
14:50:52 <mattdm> but... how can we demonstrate that going to that event had value?
14:50:54 <x3mboy> Finally we dropout this discussion and just trust
14:51:09 <bexelbie> I suggest we shift this to the Mindshare discussion - I think robyduck has a good feel for what the council means by "measurable" and can work with Mindshare to interpret it
14:51:37 <Amita> as if in some region we are not able to get Measurable Results consistently , then what should be the next step - That is not covered in the proposal and mindshare can add that part to it
14:51:38 <x3mboy> mattdm, yes, that's the point. We need to have a better guide about what to measure
14:52:03 <mattdm> x3mboy: okay, I understand that
14:52:11 <mattdm> this is a hard topic in general.
14:52:29 <mattdm> Okay, so, I think the plan here is:
14:52:48 <mattdm> * Mindshare to take this up as topic at the upcoming FAD, and come back with a concrete policy proposal
14:52:59 <robyduck> Amita: one of the goals of MIndshare actually "is" to get all of these things _rolling_ again, if you get what I mean. We are stuck in too many areas
14:53:27 <Amita> robyduck, yeah got that
14:53:27 <mattdm> * Mindshare to help figure out globally-understandable explanation of what we mean by "measurable"
14:53:46 * x3mboy on quite mode again
14:53:55 <mattdm> x3mboy: thanks for your input!
14:54:03 <mattdm> are those things correct?
14:54:03 <bexelbie> x3mboy++ thanks for your input - keep it coming
14:54:03 <zodbot> bexelbie: Karma for x3mboy changed to 13 (for the f27 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:54:18 <Amita> mattdm, should we include this too ->  as if in some region we are not able to get Measurable Results consistently , then what should be the next step - That is not covered in the proposal and mindshare can add that part to it
14:54:25 <Amita> .thank x3mboy
14:54:25 <zodbot> Amita thinks x3mboy is awesome and is happy they are helping! (Please don't forget to x3mboy++ also)
14:54:32 <Amita> x3mboy++
14:54:33 <zodbot> Amita: Karma for x3mboy changed to 14 (for the f27 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:54:33 <bexelbie> +1 to that mattdm
14:54:57 * mattdm writing that in the ticket
14:54:58 <x3mboy> mattdm, bexelbie no problem. And again, my apologies to interrupt
14:55:12 <bexelbie> Amita, I understand why you suggest that, but rather than put in a policy, why not just ask Mindshare to monitor what's going on?  Let's not figure out the answer before we have the problem.
14:55:12 <mattdm> x3mboy: not an interruption :)
14:55:29 <bexelbie> as it may be caused by something we don't expect
14:56:11 * bexelbie is afk
14:56:22 <mattdm> Note that I'm not suggesting every single action needs to have a list of measurable results
14:56:23 <Amita> and how do they monitor
14:56:44 <mattdm> However, the spending should be tied to objectives, and those *objectives* should list measurable results
14:57:06 <Amita> ok, makes sense
14:57:38 <mattdm> For example, the objective could be "increased usage in latam" and a measurable result could be "double the number of IP addresses connecting to the mirrors from LATAM regions"
14:57:58 <mattdm> and maybe "we're going to a bunch of installfests" is tied to that
14:58:12 <mattdm> doesn't mean we need to count things at the installfest per se
14:58:38 <mattdm> but at the end of the year, we can say "we thought going to installfests would increase usage" and see if it did or did not move the measurement we thought it would
14:58:42 <mattdm> does that make sense?
14:58:48 <Amita> yupp
14:58:55 <Amita> thanks
14:58:56 <mattdm> x3mboy?
14:59:05 <x3mboy> Sorry, let me read
14:59:47 <x3mboy> Oh for sure!
14:59:54 <x3mboy> It makes a lot of sense
14:59:59 <mattdm> ok, cool. I'll put that in a comment
15:00:05 <mattdm> and we're at time for the meeting
15:00:21 <mattdm> #topic real quick open floor
15:00:25 <mattdm> anyone else have anything?
15:01:18 <mattdm> okay then, ending meeting in a few seconds
15:01:22 * bexelbie is double calling
15:01:22 <mattdm> #endmeeting