15:00:53 <dgilmore> #startmeeting FESCO (2018-06-01)
15:00:53 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Jun  1 15:00:53 2018 UTC.
15:00:53 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:00:53 <zodbot> The chair is dgilmore. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:53 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:53 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2018-06-01)'
15:00:56 <dgilmore> #meetingname fesco
15:00:56 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
15:00:58 <dgilmore> #chair maxamillion dgilmore nirik jsmith sgallagh bowlofeggs tyll jwb zbyszek
15:00:58 <zodbot> Current chairs: bowlofeggs dgilmore jsmith jwb maxamillion nirik sgallagh tyll zbyszek
15:01:00 <dgilmore> #topic init process
15:01:03 <dgilmore> so I am running another meeting now as well
15:01:16 <dgilmore> it was the only time I could get everyone
15:01:25 <nirik> morning.
15:01:34 <maxamillion> .hello2
15:01:35 <zodbot> maxamillion: maxamillion 'Adam Miller' <maxamillion@gmail.com>
15:01:48 <bowlofeggs> .hello2
15:01:49 <zodbot> bowlofeggs: bowlofeggs 'Randy Barlow' <rbarlow@redhat.com>
15:01:53 <zbyszek> .hello2
15:01:54 <zodbot> zbyszek: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' <zbyszek@in.waw.pl>
15:02:51 <jsmith> .hello2
15:02:52 <zodbot> jsmith: jsmith 'Jared Smith' <jsmith.fedora@gmail.com>
15:03:51 <tyll> .hello till
15:03:52 <zodbot> tyll: till 'Till Maas' <opensource@till.name>
15:06:24 <tyll> .hello2  Wide Change: Perl Move to MetaCPAN
15:06:25 <zodbot> tyll: Sorry, but you don't exist
15:06:28 <tyll> #topic #1901 F29 System Wide Change: Perl Move to MetaCPAN
15:06:32 <tyll> .fesco 1901
15:06:34 <zodbot> tyll: Issue #1901: F29 System Wide Change: Perl Move to MetaCPAN - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1901
15:06:34 <tyll> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1901
15:06:47 <zbyszek> +1
15:06:50 <tyll> I guess dgilmore is busy
15:07:00 <tyll> did not check quorum, though
15:07:10 <bowlofeggs> +1
15:07:16 <maxamillion> +1
15:07:44 <bowlofeggs> (imo this doesn't really need a change, but +1 anyway)
15:07:51 <nirik> +1
15:08:32 <jsmith> +1
15:08:33 <maxamillion> bowlofeggs: given the scope of work, I think it makes sense to get that level of visibility on it
15:08:37 <dgilmore> sorry running another meeting also
15:08:44 * jsmith agrees with maxamillion
15:08:59 * zbyszek too
15:09:15 <tyll> +1
15:09:43 <tyll> #agree accept F29 System Wide Change: Perl Move to MetaCPAN
15:09:48 <tyll> #undo
15:09:48 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: AGREED by tyll at 15:09:43 : accept F29 System Wide Change: Perl Move to MetaCPAN
15:10:00 <tyll> #agree accept F29 System Wide Change: Perl Move to MetaCPAN (+6, 0, -0)
15:10:54 <tyll> #topic #1899 F29 System Wide Change: Move /usr/bin/python into a separate package
15:10:56 <tyll> .fesco 1899
15:10:58 <zodbot> tyll: Issue #1899: F29 System Wide Change: Move /usr/bin/python into a separate package - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1899
15:10:59 <tyll> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1899
15:11:46 <tyll> I agree it would be good to have this in build roots but not necessarily on the actual repos
15:12:03 <zbyszek> tyll: "this"?
15:12:24 <nirik> that may well be confusing if it was in one and not the other.
15:12:41 <tyll> the separate package
15:12:46 <zbyszek> Oh.
15:13:01 <tyll> IMHO it would be annoying for end users but I agree with the intention to get packager's attention
15:13:03 <bowlofeggs> this one was pretty controversial
15:13:28 <zbyszek> tyll: I don't it matters much for end users. The package will be pulled in by many things.
15:13:29 <bowlofeggs> we *do* have taskotron tests that get angry if your package uses /usr/bin/python
15:13:41 <bowlofeggs> but as pointed out in the discussion, that is after the build is done and not before
15:13:55 <bowlofeggs> but imo, you can just fix it for th enext build when that happens
15:14:12 <nirik> I guess the contention is that many people are ignoring those tests...
15:14:17 <bowlofeggs> i don't see harm in this change, but i also don't think the benefit is huge
15:14:25 <nirik> but it's hard to quantify
15:14:31 <bowlofeggs> yeah
15:14:34 <tyll> but maybe the recommends solution is good enough, I forgot about that
15:15:14 <nirik> well, it lets us find things still using /usr/bin/python... anything doing that would fail the next mass rebuild unless they add the BuildRequires
15:15:30 <bowlofeggs> nirik: we can also looks for who failed the tests though
15:15:43 <bowlofeggs> nirik: i posted a link in the thread that queries that from resultsdb
15:15:53 <bowlofeggs> so imo we already can do that without any change
15:16:02 <zbyszek> The current approach doesn't seem to be strong enough
15:16:05 <tyll> bowlofeggs: but who will do it?
15:16:24 <maxamillion> zbyszek: in what regard?
15:16:28 <nirik> bowlofeggs: will that work for rawhide tho? or anything not submitted as an update?
15:16:30 <bowlofeggs> tyll: presumably the same person who would have queried for packages that BR'd the /usr/bin/python package
15:16:47 <bowlofeggs> nirik: rawhide still gets taskotron tests in resultdb, so yes
15:16:53 <zbyszek> maxamillion: it's too easy to ignore the taskotron checks and build warnings, and many many packages haven't been fixed
15:17:54 <tyll> Proposal: Do this now at least for the mass-rebuild and revisit after branching
15:17:55 <dgilmore> sorry free now
15:18:02 <zbyszek> This new approach shifts the work to individual maintainers, who are best equipped to convert their own package to use /usr/bin/python2 or /usr/bin/python3
15:18:15 <tyll> dgilmore: welcome back
15:18:35 <zbyszek> Hmm, actually, I'd prefer to do this permanently
15:18:35 <jsmith> tyll: I'm reasonably OK with that proposal.  I think it strikes a balance.
15:18:58 <zbyszek> I don't see any benefit of revisiting
15:19:13 <tyll> zbyszek: It is a compromise
15:19:13 <zbyszek> If anything, this is going to be painful during the mass rebuild
15:19:17 <dgilmore> tyll: +1
15:19:18 <bowlofeggs> yeah a change like this would be permanent i think
15:19:22 <nirik> well, if we change it after mass rebuild it would shift the sands on people...
15:19:46 <nirik> ie, they would fix a bunch of packages to have the BR and then... we drop it so they have to change them all back?
15:20:15 <zbyszek> nirik: I think the idea is to fix the packages to use a versioned python as the preferred approach
15:20:19 <maxamillion> I'm +1 to the change as it stands, I think given the upstream preference on how that's handled the proposal does a good job trying to manage that large of a change ... I'm curious how dist upgrades will go though
15:20:30 <nirik> zbyszek: yeah, true.
15:20:33 <zbyszek> nirik: so even if the change was reverted, most packages wouldn't have to be (just saying)
15:20:36 <zbyszek> maxamillion: +1
15:20:45 <nirik> well, ideally they would move to python3... but yeah
15:21:23 <zbyszek> tyll: -1
15:22:34 <nirik> I suppose also BuildRequires: /usr/bin/python would just pull in python2 again if we reverted it, so there's not too much work to drop it...
15:22:43 <tyll> zbyszek: because of the revisting?
15:22:44 <maxamillion> yeah, I'm -1 to revisiting also, I think once we go for it there's not really any going back
15:23:11 <zbyszek> tyll: yeah, I want to just accept the change as is
15:23:15 <tyll> we will always revisit something if there will be major problems because of something...
15:23:29 <jsmith> I guess I could go either way on the "revisiting" piece, but I think we should move forward in the short term
15:23:41 <bowlofeggs> ftr, it's very easy to know what packages use /usr/bin/python today without this change: https://taskotron.fedoraproject.org/resultsdb/results?testcases=dist.python-versions.python_usage&outcome=failed
15:23:41 <zbyszek> sure, so there's no need to underline it ;)
15:23:44 <tyll> so I am also +1 as it is, the idea was to get to a decission soon
15:24:13 <tyll> IMHO this is a detail that we do not need to discuss too much about
15:24:23 <bowlofeggs> though i agree that the packagers don't always pay attention to those tests
15:25:05 <tyll> bowlofeggs: we can ask the people driving the change to give packagers a heads up and they have time until the mass rebuild to fix it
15:25:06 <nirik> the other advantage is that users could remove /usr/bin/python if they choose...
15:25:11 <jsmith> bowlofeggs: I agree -- some of us live in "Rawhidetopia" and never venture back to released versions :-)
15:25:30 <nirik> so, I guess I am +1 to the change...
15:25:41 <dgilmore> there will be major pain in undoing it
15:25:59 <zbyszek> dgilmore: nope, it's a one line change in python2.spec
15:26:08 <bowlofeggs> i think i am +1 - i do not think the change is harmful, though i do think one of its claimed benefits isn't true - the one about knowing which packages use /usr/bin/python
15:26:18 <dgilmore> zbyszek: that is not the pain point
15:26:29 <dgilmore> but I do not think it is worth arguing over
15:26:29 <zbyszek> so what is?
15:26:43 <bowlofeggs> i think it does have the benefit of getting people to take some action though, which is good
15:26:54 <dgilmore> zbyszek: at this point it does not really matter
15:27:14 <bowlofeggs> i bet many will just take the action of adding the BR and not fixing their package :/
15:27:16 <tyll> do we have an agreement for the change as it is?
15:27:24 <tyll> then we can move on :-D
15:27:25 <zbyszek> dgilmore: OK, we can talk some other time
15:27:33 <dgilmore> I realise that this is an effort to ease removing python2, something that has to happen in the next two years.
15:27:34 <bowlofeggs> i'm a mild +1 to the change as is
15:28:02 <dgilmore> but I also do not necessarily think its going to really help. but I am not going to oppose the change
15:28:29 <tyll> if the change breaks pkgs we will retire them sooner :-)
15:29:00 <bowlofeggs> i kind of agree with dgilmore that this won't do much, imo
15:29:07 <bowlofeggs> but i also don't oppose
15:29:17 <zbyszek> bowlofeggs, zbyszek, nirik, tyll, maxamillion were +1
15:29:23 <maxamillion> indeed
15:29:55 <tyll> #agree accept F29 System Wide Change: Move /usr/bin/python into a separate package (+7, 0, -0)
15:30:02 <tyll> unless I miscounted
15:30:16 <tyll> dgilmore: will you take over?
15:30:21 <dgilmore> tyll: sure
15:30:26 <dgilmore> tyll: thanks
15:30:50 <dgilmore> #topic #1898 F29 System Wide Change: The tzdata transition to
15:30:53 <dgilmore> 'vanguard' format
15:30:53 <maxamillion> tyll: looks about right :)
15:30:55 <dgilmore> .fesco 1898
15:30:57 <dgilmore> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1898
15:30:57 <zodbot> dgilmore: Issue #1898: F29 System Wide Change: The tzdata transition to 'vanguard' format - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1898
15:31:02 <jsmith> +1
15:31:04 <zbyszek> +1
15:31:20 <tyll> +1
15:31:33 <nirik> +1
15:31:35 <bowlofeggs> +1
15:31:43 <dgilmore> +1
15:31:49 <maxamillion> I worry what this might break unintentionally, but I'm +1 since upstream is going that direction
15:32:11 <bowlofeggs> maxamillion: that's what makes the change exciting! :)
15:32:45 <dgilmore> #agree accept F29 System Wide Change: The tzdata transition to 'vanguard' format (+7, 0, -0)
15:32:53 <dgilmore> #topic #1897 F29 System Wide Change: Perl 5.28
15:32:56 <dgilmore> .fesco 1897
15:32:58 <dgilmore> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1897
15:32:58 <zodbot> dgilmore: Issue #1897: F29 System Wide Change: Perl 5.28 - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1897
15:33:04 <zbyszek> +1
15:33:19 <nirik> +1
15:33:26 <tyll> +1
15:33:34 <dgilmore> +1
15:33:38 <jsmith> +1
15:33:49 <bowlofeggs> +1
15:34:04 <bowlofeggs> can we make some perl jokes now too?
15:34:19 <dgilmore> maxamillion: ?
15:34:25 <dgilmore> bowlofeggs: always
15:34:39 <maxamillion> +1
15:34:39 <maxamillion> sorry
15:35:08 <jsmith> Since it's national donut day today, we shoud ask "Does Perl have a donut operator?"
15:35:19 <bowlofeggs> haha
15:35:44 <nirik> 🍩 + 🍩 = ?
15:35:56 <dgilmore> #agree accept F29 System Wide Change: Perl 5.28 (+7, 0, -0)
15:36:16 <dgilmore> #topic #1893 Non-responsive maintainer for libinvm-i18n,libinvm-cli,
15:36:18 <dgilmore> libinvm-cim
15:36:20 <dgilmore> .fesco 1893
15:36:21 <zodbot> dgilmore: Issue #1893: Non-responsive maintainer for libinvm-i18n,libinvm-cli, libinvm-cim - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1893
15:36:22 <dgilmore> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1893
15:36:39 <bowlofeggs> this was a failure on my part
15:36:47 <bowlofeggs> i was supposed to write devel list about it and i forgot to do that
15:36:49 <dgilmore> did we actually start the documented process?
15:36:57 <bowlofeggs> i thought i had put it in task warrior and it turned out i had not
15:37:03 <dgilmore> #actions bowlofeggs to follow up on devel@
15:37:08 <bowlofeggs> it is in my task warrior now though
15:37:12 <dgilmore> #action bowlofeggs to follow up on devel@
15:37:13 <bowlofeggs> i propose we skip another week
15:37:18 <zbyszek> Yep.
15:37:20 <dgilmore> +1
15:37:29 <zbyszek> +1
15:37:36 <bowlofeggs> and i apologize :(
15:37:38 <jsmith> +1
15:37:46 <maxamillion> +1
15:37:54 <tyll> +1
15:38:11 <bowlofeggs> +1
15:38:16 <nirik> +1
15:38:26 <dgilmore> #agree bowlofeggs to buy everyone 🍩, followup on devel@ and then look at again next week
15:38:33 <dgilmore> #undo
15:38:45 <bowlofeggs> haha
15:38:54 <dgilmore> #agree bowlofeggs to buy everyone 🍩, followup on devel@ and then look at again next week (+7, 0, -0)
15:39:10 <dgilmore> #agreed bowlofeggs to buy everyone 🍩, followup on devel@ and then look at again next week (+7, 0, -0)
15:39:17 <dgilmore> okay should be covered
15:39:20 <maxamillion> jsmith: for what it's worth ... this apparently doesn't work in perl
15:39:21 <maxamillion> $ perl -e '🍩+🍩'
15:39:22 <maxamillion> Unrecognized character \xF0; marked by <-- HERE after <-- HERE near column 1 at -e line 1.
15:39:24 <maxamillion> >.>
15:39:25 <zbyszek> Can I have my � with raspberry jam?
15:39:30 <dgilmore> #topic Elections
15:40:10 <dgilmore> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/SteeringCommittee/Nominations
15:40:18 <dgilmore> we now have 5 nominations
15:40:18 <jsmith> Looks like we have enough nominations now, right?
15:40:25 <dgilmore> Elections can go ahead
15:41:02 <jsmith> WORKSFORME
15:41:34 <zbyszek> Cool. Can someone remind us all about the dates the voting starts and ends?
15:41:41 <tyll> #info do not forget the interviews
15:41:41 <dgilmore> #info there is now the required minimum number of candidates, elections can move forward
15:41:45 <maxamillion> jsmith: 🍩+🍩 also doesn't work in python
15:42:09 <dgilmore> #info intervie stage can now proceed
15:42:14 <dgilmore> #undo
15:42:14 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by dgilmore at 15:42:09 : intervie stage can now proceed
15:42:20 <dgilmore> #info interview stage can now proceed
15:42:25 <maxamillion> jsmith: ruby at least gives a reasonable error message :) -> -e:1:in `<main>': undefined local variable or method `🍩' for main:Object (NameError)
15:42:29 <bowlofeggs> maxamillion: what about ansible
15:42:39 <dgilmore> #topic Next week's chair
15:42:49 <dgilmore> who wants to go next week?
15:43:09 <bowlofeggs> i can do it
15:43:21 <bowlofeggs> assuming i'm not voted out :)
15:43:23 <jsmith> I will be absent next week... speaking at a conference
15:43:33 <maxamillion> bowlofeggs: yeah, ansible supports unicode/emoji https://asciinema.org/a/ua4X9QYXKNI3Ari08s8w6Iw9o
15:44:02 <maxamillion> bowlofeggs: you can't add emoji together though without assigning them a value
15:44:17 <maxamillion> oh, I'll be absent next week also ... traveling home from a conference
15:44:19 <dgilmore> #action bowlofeggs will chair next meeting
15:44:21 <dgilmore> #topic Open Floor
15:44:40 <dgilmore> anyone have anything to bring up?
15:44:51 <tyll> just a reminder, that the Flock CfP is open
15:44:56 <tyll> and who is coming?
15:45:05 <dgilmore> #info Flock CfP is open
15:45:11 <dgilmore> tyll: I will be there
15:45:14 * zbyszek will be there
15:45:16 * nirik hopes to be
15:45:38 <tyll> https://flocktofedora.org/#cfp
15:45:51 <zbyszek> #info Flock 2018 will be in Dresden, Germany this August 8-11
15:45:59 <tyll> awesome, me, too :-D
15:46:16 <bowlofeggs> i want to be there but am not sure i'll have funding
15:48:24 <zbyszek> tyll: thanks for the FTBFS bugs, I now know I need to fix some of my own packages ;)
15:49:28 <tyll> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/showdependencytree.cgi?id=1555378&hide_resolved=1
15:49:43 <tyll> #info about 891 open FTBFS bugs
15:50:21 * jsmith has been slowly working through a bunch of the NodeJS packages in that list
15:50:54 <maxamillion> I'll either be at Flock or DevConf.us ... not sure which just yet
15:51:42 <dgilmore> anything else?
15:51:51 <dgilmore> if not I will close in 45
15:52:59 <dgilmore> #endmeeting