10:01:16 <jibec> #startmeeting L10N Translation platform migration
10:01:17 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon May 13 10:01:16 2019 UTC.
10:01:17 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
10:01:17 <zodbot> The chair is jibec. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
10:01:17 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
10:01:17 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'l10n_translation_platform_migration'
10:01:20 <jibec> #meetingname L10N
10:01:20 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'l10n'
10:01:25 <jibec> #meetingtopic Translation platform migration
10:01:42 <suanand> .hello2
10:01:42 <zodbot> suanand: suanand 'Sundeep Anand' <suanand@redhat.com>
10:01:45 <jibec> #chair suanand jibec
10:01:45 <zodbot> Current chairs: jibec suanand
10:02:26 <jibec> .hello2
10:02:27 <zodbot> jibec: jibec 'Holcroft' <jb.holcroft@gmail.com>
10:02:38 <jibec> haha, wrong email ;)
10:02:40 <jibec> let's wait for a few minutes to see if other people will attend ;)
10:02:59 * suanand nod
10:05:45 <jibec> #topic Zanata project is not active anymore
10:06:06 <jibec> I assume everyone will agree on this point
10:06:21 <jibec> I wrote an article on the subject last october: https://jibecfed.fedorapeople.org/blog-hugo/en/2018/10/is-zanata-disappearing/
10:06:43 <jibec> I saw no change in Zanata's activity
10:07:02 <jibec> have you seen any public communication?
10:07:15 <suanand> I heard people complaining about Zanata downtime
10:08:07 <petersen> hi
10:08:09 <jibec> yep, here is one example: https://nikisoft.myblog.de/nikisoft/art/11671991/Zanata-outage-and-our-reactions
10:08:27 <jibec> #chair suanand petersen jibec
10:08:27 <zodbot> Current chairs: jibec petersen suanand
10:08:34 <suanand> there are a few tickets at JIRA, example https://zanata.atlassian.net/browse/ZNTA-2801
10:09:28 <paragan> hi
10:09:30 <jibec> we also had a few emails on trans@lists.fedorapeople.ord saying connection was not possible for a few days, I don't know who solved it, but it is again possible
10:09:36 <vishal_vvr> hi
10:09:44 <jibec> #chair suanand petersen jibec paragan vishal_vvr
10:09:44 <zodbot> Current chairs: jibec paragan petersen suanand vishal_vvr
10:10:32 <jibec> I asked bexelbie and bcotton to write some kind of public announcment, but nothing yet
10:11:25 <jibec> do we all agree we need to leave Zanata and that there is no other solution?
10:11:32 <suanand> we have many packages translating on fedora.zanata, I guess announcement may take some time
10:12:43 <paragan> Have we explored any other alternatives available to replace Zanata?
10:12:54 <suanand> some admins try to keep fedora.zanata running but yeah - no improvements development side
10:13:58 <jibec> paragan: this is the next topic, basicaly, there isn't a lot of alternatives
10:14:58 <jibec> can I consider as agreed the fact there is no hope in keeping Zanata?
10:16:14 <paragan> Okay. So for this topic, if there is no announcement yet then let's wait few more days to see if there will be any official announcement happening.  But, let's not block us from looking into other alternatives.
10:16:55 <suanand> sadly, active development in Zanata has stopped and it's may be a few admins to keep Zanata running until something major breaks .. for example fedora auth.. (last time)
10:17:25 <jibec> can we say we wait for an official annoucment until may 31th, and start looking for alternatives right now?
10:17:35 <petersen> One translator mentions that anyone can translate on Weblate... I don't know if it is a big issue?
10:18:01 <jibec> petersen: we'll talk about it in next topic
10:18:48 <suanand> jibec: Yes - we may keep a cutoff date, before it's get too late ;)
10:19:18 <suanand> how people around think?
10:19:53 <petersen> No other translators joining today?
10:20:19 <paragan> If we need to conclude this topic then let's say like this "There remains no active developer for Zanata and its a problem for its users. It has become unreliable so better we start looking into alternatives"
10:20:37 <suanand> +1
10:20:37 <petersen> jibec: It sounds okay to me - did they already reply about announcing?
10:21:22 <jibec> I talked about it to Brian/bex, he said multiple time the communication will be out soon, but nothing happend yet
10:21:39 <petersen> Okay that's good then
10:22:23 <petersen> (Though an announcement without any plan seems kind of funny)
10:22:42 <jibec> #agreed There remains no active developer for Zanata and its a problem for its users. It has become unreliable so better we start looking into alternatives. We wait until may 31th for an official announcment to help us moving forward.
10:22:51 <jibec> #topic Translation platform migration g11n/issue/58
10:22:58 <jibec> #link https://pagure.io/g11n/issue/58
10:23:16 <misc> (for the record, my team at RH was approched for doing some hosting for the platform)
10:23:19 <jibec> basically, we need Common agreement of what we need, and what weblate answer and doesn't. we don't choose weblate because we are fans, but because it answers our needs. And I'm sure we need some developments and it requires funding.
10:24:31 * suanand agree
10:24:36 <jibec> misc: good, as a temporary solution until closing or else?
10:25:52 <petersen> misc: platform?
10:26:32 <petersen> jibec: right
10:26:46 <jibec> so, paragan asked about the existing alternatives
10:26:54 <jibec> I know pontoon from Mozilla : https://github.com/mozilla/pontoon
10:27:06 <jibec> Pootle from Translate's house: https://pootle.translatehouse.org/
10:27:20 <jibec> and Weblate : https://weblate.org/fr/
10:27:50 <jibec> do anyone know any other open-source translation platform?
10:28:15 <misc> jibec: IIRC, temporary, we do not plan to develop or anything
10:28:26 <misc> petersen: the hosted instance of zanata from RH
10:28:53 <misc> but I do not have more info, since I am on vacation for a while, but we can help host another software if needed
10:28:54 <jibec> oh, and I forgot, damned lies from GNOME : https://gitlab.gnome.org/Infrastructure/damned-lies/
10:29:17 <misc> (or at least try)
10:29:51 <petersen> ok
10:30:59 <suanand> jibec: there are plenty if we search .. but most common once's we are surrounded with are these .. :)
10:31:10 <suanand> and all are Python/Django apps
10:31:54 <misc> my boss (jbrooks@redhat) may have more information (but he is in California, so unlikely to be up for this meeting) (bex know him, we are in the same departement, for completness)
10:33:19 <jibec> would it helps if I write him a message to ask for more information or should it be done from another redhat employee?
10:34:01 <misc> you can totally ask him more information
10:36:35 <jibec> #action jibec: contact jbrooks@redhat to ask for more information about current state of Zanata
10:37:00 <jibec> so, the challenge now is the "Common agreement of what we need, and what weblate answer and doesn't"
10:37:26 <jibec> how do we write down the list of what we need, when translators almost never attend meetings? :p
10:38:34 <misc> promise cake/food
10:39:09 <petersen> jibec: yeah that is challenging - how about a questionaire or survey - some feature comparison table?
10:39:11 <jibec> what worries me is the legitimacy
10:40:36 <jibec> OK, I can write a template, but who will review it?
10:40:56 <petersen> Getting feature parity will probably be difficult at best - more likely impossible - so guess we need to work out the MVP that would work for now
10:41:26 <suanand> good to see: https://opensource.com/article/17/6/open-source-localization-tools
10:42:20 <jibec> I started this a few years ago: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/HNuImzp74kod7Cly2fI-2w
10:43:13 <jibec> it requires some improvments, but could we use this as a base?
10:44:42 <jibec> it's coming from a document of April 2017 :p
10:46:09 <suanand> jibec: may be .. yes! I see some points from continuous localization + many things.. thanks
10:47:01 <suanand> good if we can keep updating it, and track what we have in place.
10:47:06 <jibec> suanand: are you ok to work with me on this bullet point list?
10:47:42 <suanand> jibec: i'm looking for this kind of list for a long time now
10:48:00 <jibec> petersen: can you tell us more about what do you mean about the MVP?
10:49:11 <jibec> #action suanand, jibec : elaborate a list of characteristics for translation platform (will be used to agree on the feature we need for a MVP, and if it usefull, to choose the future translation platform)
10:49:49 <suanand> (I can see what we can have at which layer of l10n workflow)
10:50:10 <jibec> ok
10:50:29 <jibec> petersen: we already have this as a demonstrator: http://translate.holcroft.fr/
10:51:48 <petersen> Well just mean minimal required features - I think it is similar to what you were saying earlier
10:52:25 <petersen> Specifically?  No, I am not really best person for elucidate that
10:52:35 <petersen> s/for/to
10:53:17 <petersen> Have we had any communication with the weblate maintainer?
10:54:11 <jibec> yes
10:54:19 <jibec> I'm discussing with him almost every days :p
10:54:50 <jibec> for example, I'm working on speeding up weblate: https://github.com/WeblateOrg/weblate/issues/2734
10:55:29 <jibec> so, last subject is about project maintainers
10:55:51 <jibec> the way Zanata works is: the maintainer manually pushes and pulls content
10:56:10 <jibec> Weblate is easier, it directly speaks with the git repository
10:56:19 <jibec> which also makes a lot of commits
10:57:00 <jibec> so, this really impact the developement process of software teams
10:57:08 <misc> doesn't it also imply the weblate instance has write access to the repo, which could mean there is potential security implication ?
10:57:22 <jibec> some teams will like it, some team won't
10:57:24 <misc> (especially on a shared instance :/ )
10:57:52 <jibec> it depends, on github it opens pull requests, there is no write access needed
10:58:31 <jibec> on pagure, it requires a account with write access to automatically push, or it asks for the maintainer to push content himself
10:58:34 <misc> I misunderstood "directly speak with the repo" :p
10:59:08 <jibec> if you give the token to Weblate, it pushes commits on any git repo
10:59:35 <jibec> does it answer misc ?
10:59:54 <jibec> I think that's all for this meeting
11:00:03 <jibec> any other subject/question?
11:00:32 <suanand> how can we discuss https://paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/HNuImzp74kod7Cly2fI-2w ?
11:00:41 <suanand> s/can/should
11:00:49 <jibec> note about git access: AFAIK, git access is also required for pontoon and damnedlies
11:01:51 <jibec> suanand: we'll use this pad: https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/translation-platform-features
11:02:00 <suanand> jibec: sure
11:03:03 <jibec> petersen: what was your idea about communication with the weblate maintainer?
11:03:48 <jibec> he knows we are thinking about using weblate for Fedora and he already helped open-suse for this: https://l10n.opensuse.org/
11:04:12 <petersen> jibec: nothing specific again - great you are communicating with him :-)
11:04:19 <petersen> Oh good
11:04:24 <jibec> ok then, endmeeting?
11:04:39 <petersen> I suppose it could open PR in pagure too
11:04:59 <mfabian> Would it make sense to move something small like ibus-typing-booster to weblate to try it?
11:05:46 <petersen> I think it could be good
11:05:52 <jibec> mfabian: it could, but we have no install of Weblate for now ;)
11:06:18 <mfabian> I could maybe ask the weblate author to host it.
11:06:34 <jibec> and for sure weblate will do the job fine for one single project, what worries me is the answer to the fedora l10n community
11:06:41 <jibec> +needs
11:07:01 <jibec> you can ask to be hosted there: https://hosted.weblate.org/
11:07:12 <jibec> but it won't be part of the fedora l10n community
11:07:30 <jibec> it's like fedora.zanata.org and translate.zanata.org
11:08:04 <mfabian> So would it be better to wait until we have a fedora instance running?
11:08:21 <jibec> I think so yes
11:08:23 <petersen> True... though it would give us some devel user experience at least
11:09:09 <jibec> well, for this we can use translate.holcroft.fr
11:09:14 <jibec> but only for testing
11:09:51 <jibec> thank you everyone for being part of this discussion
11:10:05 <jibec> I'll set up a new meeting in two weeks if that's fine for you
11:11:22 <jibec> #endmeeting