18:00:02 <bcotton_> #startmeeting Council (2021-01-21) 18:00:02 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jan 21 18:00:02 2021 UTC. 18:00:02 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 18:00:02 <zodbot> The chair is bcotton_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:02 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2021-01-21)' 18:00:04 <bcotton_> #meetingname council 18:00:04 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council' 18:00:05 <bcotton_> #chair bookwar dcantrell jwf riecatnor spot mattdm bcotton asamalik x3mboy 18:00:05 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton_ bookwar dcantrell jwf riecatnor spot mattdm bcotton asamalik x3mboy 18:00:07 <bcotton_> #topic Introductions, Welcomes 18:00:27 <bcotton_> helloooo everyone 18:00:27 * jwf waves 18:00:40 * spot wakes up 18:00:47 <mattdm> hello Ben Cotton Underscore! 18:01:00 <x3mboy> .hello2 18:01:02 <zodbot> x3mboy: x3mboy 'Eduard Lucena' <eduardlucena@gmail.com> 18:01:15 * King_InuYasha waves 18:01:18 <King_InuYasha> .hello ngompa 18:01:19 <zodbot> King_InuYasha: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com> 18:01:39 <jwf> .hello jflory7 18:01:40 <zodbot> jwf: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' <foss@jwf.io> 18:02:24 <mattdm> .hello2 18:02:25 <zodbot> mattdm: mattdm 'Matthew Miller' <mattdm@mattdm.org> 18:02:31 <riecatnor> .hello riecatnor 18:02:33 <zodbot> riecatnor: riecatnor 'Marie Nordin' <mnordin@redhat.com> 18:02:39 <bookwar> .hello2 18:02:40 <zodbot> bookwar: bookwar 'Aleksandra Fedorova' <alpha@bookwar.info> 18:02:58 <bcotton_> that's almost everyone, so let's get started 18:03:14 <bcotton_> #topic Today's agenda 18:03:16 <bcotton_> #info Logo adoption timeline 18:03:17 <bcotton_> #info Fedora annual survey 18:03:19 <bcotton_> #info Add the Fedora goal of having complete integrated system 18:03:20 <bcotton_> #info Your topics here! 18:03:29 * bcotton_ remembered to replace #topic with #info when copypasta-ing this time 18:03:33 <bcotton_> bcotton++ ;-) 18:03:40 <bcotton_> #topic Logo adoption timeline 18:03:42 <bcotton_> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/249 18:03:51 <mattdm> So, good news! 18:04:10 <mattdm> We have legal clearance to move forward with the new logo as designed by mizmo 18:04:21 <bcotton_> #info We have legal clearance to move forward with the new logo as designed by mizmo 18:04:27 <dcantrell> .hello2 18:04:28 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com> 18:04:28 <mattdm> We are waiting for RH Legal to file a thing 18:04:38 <mattdm> "A thing" is not the technical term. 18:04:58 <mattdm> I'm just being vague because I'm not sure how much we should say before that is actually filed. 18:04:58 <spot> maybe a trademark registration? 18:05:04 <bookwar> are we going to be ready by devconf? ) 18:05:21 <bcotton_> bookwar: definitly by *a* devconf 18:05:27 <bcotton_> definitely, too 18:05:34 <mattdm> We were told that that would take about a week, about a week ago 18:05:41 <mattdm> So bcotton_ is following up. 18:05:44 <spot> so, 2024. 18:05:46 <spot> cool. 18:06:04 <mattdm> bcotton_ won't let that happen :) 18:06:16 <bookwar> i wonder if get more flame than centos got 18:06:24 * bcotton_ is a pro at sending pestering emails 18:06:35 <jwf> Well, we do have a very long, very public track record on our logo 18:06:41 <jwf> mizmo++ 18:06:41 <zodbot> jwf: Karma for duffy changed to 3 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:06:52 <King_InuYasha> woohoo! 18:06:53 <mattdm> We also need a roll-out plan. Ben, Marie, Mo, and I are working on figuring that out. 18:06:57 <Conan_Kudo> mizmo++ 18:06:58 <zodbot> Conan_Kudo: Karma for duffy changed to 4 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:07:22 <bcotton_> duffy++ 18:07:28 <mattdm> There are a lot of things that need to be changed -- not just the logos but the guidelines and stuff 18:07:29 <bcotton_> FINE ZODBOT 18:07:48 <bcotton> duffy++ 18:07:48 <zodbot> bcotton: Karma for duffy changed to 5 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:07:49 <bookwar> jwf: sure, but i would brace for impact anyway. There will be a news wave. 18:07:54 <jwf> mattdm: I wonder if a docs.fp.o reboot from the wiki would be in order… 18:07:57 <King_InuYasha> are we getting new generic branding for this? 18:08:29 <mattdm> And, we've also been asked to _keep_ using the "classic" logo in place. 18:08:37 <mattdm> King_InuYasha: you mean the remix secondary mark? 18:08:38 <King_InuYasha> or fedora-remix branding? 18:08:44 <jwf> bookwar: Inevitably. I am skeptically optimistic that it won't be received terribly. Given that we still get the Facebook comments, even in 2020 18:08:45 <King_InuYasha> mattdm: yes 18:08:59 <mattdm> I don't think that's currently in scope. 18:09:08 <mattdm> One thing at a time. :) 18:09:18 <mattdm> It might make sense to update the typeface to match 18:09:21 <King_InuYasha> yeah 18:09:36 <bookwar> mattdm: then i guess let's not make any announcement until we have the plan figured 18:09:46 <riecatnor> mattdm, which typeface? 18:10:03 <mattdm> I think in some part, continuing to use the current logo is just going to happen in practice because we won't be able to have a big changeover day 18:10:27 <mattdm> riecatnor: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:Secondary_trademark_usage_guidelines 18:10:45 <riecatnor> mattdm, gotcha thanks 18:10:51 <mattdm> But it would be nice to also have some areas where we are specifically using the Classic mark intentionally 18:11:09 <King_InuYasha> you can see where the rpi branding design was inspired from :) 18:11:11 <mattdm> We don't need to solve that here but would like your ideas as you have them 18:11:34 <King_InuYasha> mattdm: why not use the main logo for Project activities? 18:12:06 <mattdm> King_InuYasha: We discussed that. The problem is a lot of the reasons we wanted a new logo apply to those uses 18:12:11 <King_InuYasha> :/ 18:12:12 <mattdm> Like, maybe 95% of them. 18:12:26 <mattdm> I mean, they also apply to the Fedora software use cases. 18:12:31 <King_InuYasha> then this is going to be difficult 18:12:49 <bcotton_> King_InuYasha: that is correct 18:12:51 <King_InuYasha> we don't exactly have any good boundaries we could neatly apply them 18:12:52 <mattdm> I am one-tenth-seriously thinking of making a Fedora Classic spin. With fvwm. 18:13:03 <King_InuYasha> mattdm: it'd better have fvwm95 :) 18:13:11 <mattdm> sure :) 18:13:21 <King_InuYasha> (that was my first window manager :) ) 18:14:05 <jwf> It will be difficult, but we'll get it done :) Once we have a green light to go public, I think we can revisit then. But good to know there is real traction here 18:14:15 <bookwar> mattdm: the problem there is to come up with the common definition is "classic", which is impossible 18:14:20 <mattdm> But anyway, I think the question for the council is: do we want to try and land this for the F34 launch? 18:14:26 <jwf> It might be a good casual note in bcotton's FPgM weekly reports 18:14:35 <jwf> mattdm: That seems ambitiously ambitious 18:14:37 <bcotton_> FSVO "land" 18:14:40 <King_InuYasha> mattdm: yes please, it would align well with branding refresh in Plasma 18:14:47 <mattdm> bcotton_: right. 18:14:58 <King_InuYasha> we're in the process of redoing basically the entire visual look of Plasma in Fedora 18:15:05 <riecatnor> I think we need to understand the scope of landing it for F34 launch is 18:15:14 <riecatnor> what the scope* 18:15:20 <jwf> riecatnor++ 18:15:37 <mattdm> I think it would basically be: We use the new logo for: 18:15:43 <mattdm> 1) at least the Editions 18:15:47 <mattdm> 2) Fedora Magazine 18:15:53 <mattdm> 3) Fedora Docs 18:16:21 <mattdm> all by 34 release day 18:16:28 <King_InuYasha> 4) Fedora KDE :P 18:16:36 <King_InuYasha> but yeah, that makes sense 18:16:53 <mattdm> King_InuYasha that falls under 'at least' rather than 'must' to me but sure since you want to do it anyway 18:17:08 <mattdm> and then we would start rolling it out to other places as time and effort permit 18:17:15 <riecatnor> so we have until mid April 18:18:01 <mattdm> Yeah. My feeling is that if we can't do at least 1-3 above, we should delay until two weeks after the F34 launch (when the buzz of that dies down) and then start changing things for F35 18:18:18 <bcotton_> assuming the design team can make updated assets in that time frame, #2 and 3 shoudl be easy to implement 18:18:20 <mattdm> (That is, if we can't do 1-3, explicitly do none.) 18:18:36 <riecatnor> so, we will need Mo to make the files for all of these I am guessing. so that is the first piece, Mo's capacity. Tho I think she is excited for this 18:18:42 <bcotton_> i do like the all-or-nothing approach 18:18:52 <mattdm> Other early targets would be hyperkitty, discourse, matrix, and the wiki 18:19:13 <King_InuYasha> most of those things don't actually _use_ the Fedora logo 18:19:25 <King_InuYasha> unless we've changed the fedora-bootstrap visual style too? 18:19:58 <jwf> mattdm: I think you forgot social media, Discourse, and Matrix ;) 18:20:20 <mattdm> Oh, yes, social media probably should be part of the launch. 18:20:34 <bookwar> what are the places to keep the old one then? 18:20:35 <mattdm> Twitter and Facebook at least, because that's our biggest audiences. 18:20:59 <mattdm> bookwar: right, no idea. :) 18:21:12 <mattdm> but it is _everywhere_ in places like https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/ 18:21:19 <mattdm> https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji-static/images/koji.png 18:21:31 <jwf> There is also LinkedIn (stickster?), Reddit, Discord, Telegram, YouTube, Instagram… etc 18:21:46 <mattdm> anyway, this is getting into details. all of this will need to go into the plan. 18:21:52 <jwf> +1 18:22:02 <mizmo> ooh logo talk? 18:22:07 <bcotton_> so it sounds like we have general agreement that we want to give this a try 18:22:08 <mattdm> mizmo: yes :) 18:22:09 <jwf> Well, +1 to putting it in a plan 18:22:22 <bookwar> should it be in a ticket? Or in a doc? 18:22:25 <jwf> I am somewhere between -1 and +0 for targeting new logo for F34 18:22:26 <mattdm> just going to say "I think we need to wait for mizmo to make the decision I want to make" 18:22:43 <mizmo> mattdm: what decision? 18:22:44 <bcotton_> so i'm going to suggest we #action mattdm to coordinate a plan for the logo rollout and come back to council with a proposal 18:22:58 <King_InuYasha> mizmo: starting rollout of new logo in f34 18:23:00 <jwf> I feel like we should spend more time scoping it than just one meeting before taking a vote on something that comes with a lot of new work 18:23:03 <mizmo> i have an initial cut of a plan riecatnor and i worked on way back but its very high level branding 18:23:08 <mizmo> oh thats my decision? o_O 18:23:13 <King_InuYasha> mizmo: yes 18:23:13 <mattdm> bookwar: I think mizmo riecatnor and I will come up with a proposal 18:23:41 <mattdm> mizmo: well, it's a decision where you have a lot of the weight since we expect you'll do most of the work :) 18:23:48 <mizmo> oh i just sort of assumed it was happening and scheduled myself accordingly 18:23:56 <King_InuYasha> well, that makes that easy 18:23:58 <mattdm> bcotton_: go ahead and action me that :) 18:24:13 <mizmo> i mean i would have a happier less stressful life if it could wait, but also... excitement to get it going so 18:24:30 <bcotton_> #action mattdm to coordinate a plan for the logo rollout and come back to the Council with a proposal 18:24:47 <mizmo> does having the plan approved by council be a prereq to getting into f34 bc time is tight for beta 18:24:50 <jwf> I will feel more confident voting on something more concrete :) We could make it for F34, but we need to take a proper inventory of what that will require first 18:25:13 <mizmo> or say could there be an f34 plan, then the full rest of everything plan after beta deadlines are made 18:25:22 <King_InuYasha> mizmo: that's fine 18:25:26 <bcotton_> mizmo: yes, that 18:25:26 <King_InuYasha> and I think what we're aiming for 18:25:36 <jwf> +1 18:25:36 <mattdm> mizmo: yes, that was my suggestion. scroll up a bit to where I made a numbered list 18:25:51 <bcotton_> okay, so let's move on to the next topic then 18:25:53 <mizmo> ok cool what i have been working on is putting together a table in the pagure ticket on the design team pagure of all the spots it needs to be updated 18:26:09 <mattdm> ok. I'll try to get a proposal for F34 ready before next week 18:26:12 <bcotton_> #topic Fedora annual survey 18:26:14 <bcotton_> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/327 18:26:15 <bcotton_> #info Previously, bookwar said she'd draft a proposal for this 18:26:16 <mattdm> even if it will not have all the details 18:26:40 <bookwar> bcotton and i said it will be in november :( 18:26:52 <bcotton_> bookwar: i left that part out :-) 18:27:32 <bookwar> and i do still want to make it 18:27:35 <mattdm> it's november somewhere! 18:27:51 <bookwar> but i am really afraid to say anything about the time now 18:28:31 <bcotton_> bookwar: no problem. it's not the most pressing issue. we can keep checking in on it from time to time (or if you want to hand it off to someone else, we can ask for volunteers) 18:29:16 <bookwar> if anyone wants to volunteer, i'll gladly accept that, but let's keep it for now 18:29:16 <jwf> I wonder if Mindshare has bandwidth and capacity for this, either to lead or just to assist. Given their success in running previous surveys 18:29:40 <mattdm> I can also check back in with the NPS people I was talking to pre-covid 18:29:48 <jwf> x3mboy and riecatnor could call that one better than me^^ 18:29:56 <mattdm> Those discussions fell apart solely because of pandemic fatigue. 18:30:01 <x3mboy> I did what? 18:30:30 <jwf> x3mboy: Mindshare Committee bandwidth to assisting with a community-wide survey about Fedora 18:30:51 <jwf> x3mboy: This one -- https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/327 18:30:55 <x3mboy> I think there is some BW 18:31:01 <riecatnor> there is a process in which to request a survey through mindshare 18:31:03 <x3mboy> But not sure how much 18:31:14 <mattdm> let's do that then so bookwar can stop feeling guilty 18:31:21 <riecatnor> Well, the copy needs to be written 18:31:29 <riecatnor> it is only someone taking that and putting it into lime survey 18:31:55 <jwf> Would Mindshare be interested in co-authoring the copy? 18:32:09 <riecatnor> I think mindshare is a bit cut off from the engineering side of Fedora, as engineering side is from mindshare. this should be with the council imo 18:32:21 <mizmo> oh! i just wanted to throw this out there - by some chance i own the fedora.limequery.com / fedora@limesurvey account, if somebody wants the reins happy to give for this 18:32:22 <jwf> Fair 18:32:40 * mattdm has to step away from keyboard for a few minutes. don't wait for me :) 18:32:42 <x3mboy> +1 to riecatnor 18:32:46 <bookwar> the initial question list is there in the etherpad 18:33:09 <bookwar> do you thinl we can find some small unibiased audience where we can make a test run for them? 18:33:09 <riecatnor> I think ensuring the reps from mindshare and fesco review it makes sense tho. 18:33:26 <bookwar> riecatnor: yes, definitely 18:34:11 <bookwar> riecatnor: so i need to bring it to mindshare and fesco and council as a ticket, right? 18:34:16 <riecatnor> what we have already is a pretty good start 18:34:44 <riecatnor> I guess it mainly needs some refinement? 18:35:00 <bcotton_> i would not bring it to mindshare and fesco as tickets. i'd say bring it to the council as a ticket and let the mindshare/fesco reps handle their respective groups 18:35:16 <bookwar> bcotton: ok, good point 18:35:25 <riecatnor> this is definitely something we can discuss at the next mindshare meeting 18:36:06 <bookwar> so how about I'll take the content from the etherpad, reread it, and then repost it into that ticket as a proposal? 18:36:18 <jwf> +1 18:37:17 <King_InuYasha> is this survey thing something we can use in various WGs? 18:37:36 <King_InuYasha> WGs/SIGs/etc.? 18:38:00 <riecatnor> I think the idea is that it is community wide? 18:38:22 <bcotton_> #action bookwar to review the content from the survey etherpad and repost into the ticket as a proposal 18:38:31 <bcotton_> anything else on this topic? 18:38:40 <jwf> not from me 18:39:08 <bcotton_> #topic Add the Fedora goal of having complete integrated system 18:39:09 <bcotton_> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/280 18:39:11 <bcotton_> #info From vF2F: mattdm and bookwar to find a place to fit “upstream first” and then add in the contents of https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Objectives&oldid=2124 18:39:50 <riecatnor> mizmo, for the limesurvey account, the person would be siddharthvipul :) 18:40:09 <bcotton_> mattdm, bookwar any progress on this one? 18:40:22 <mizmo> riecatnor - his accoutn is fedoraproject.limequery, i have the fedora.* one 18:40:39 <mattdm> bcotton_: nope! kick that to next meeting plesae :) 18:40:56 <bcotton_> #info We'll come back to this next time 18:41:02 <bcotton_> speaking of next time... 18:41:11 <bookwar> King_InuYasha: btw, my original idea on survey was because the nano vs vim debate and i started to think if we want a "classic spin" as mattdm mentioned. And then i realized i have no idea what can be counted as classic in the community, and i want to know what community is actually doing 18:41:26 <bcotton_> #topic Next meeting 18:41:28 <bcotton_> #info The next regular business meeting is Thursday 4 Feburary 18:41:31 <King_InuYasha> well, "classic" is overratted 18:41:37 <King_InuYasha> call it "retro" :) 18:41:37 <bcotton_> #topic Do we have anything to announce? 18:41:39 <bcotton_> #info This is a regular check to make sure we're communicating to the contributor (via CommBlog) and user (via Magazine) communities 18:43:40 <riecatnor> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/community-outreach-revamp-objective/ 18:44:03 <riecatnor> follow up, please vote or comment here :) 18:44:05 <riecatnor> #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-objective-proposal-community-outreach-revamp/25928/4 18:44:40 <bcotton_> any other announcements? 18:45:22 <mattdm> not from me 18:45:29 <riecatnor> yes 18:45:37 * bcotton_ waits 18:45:50 <riecatnor> #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/248 18:45:58 <riecatnor> #info Mindshare committee is organizing a presence at fosdem 2021 18:46:33 <riecatnor> we are attempting to organize a swag raffle contest for that! 18:46:41 <riecatnor> that is all :) 18:46:52 <bcotton_> #topic Dashboard check 18:46:54 <bcotton_> #link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/dashboard/ 18:47:32 <bcotton_> so not today because i haven't had time to organize my thoughts, but be prepared for a proposal from me that we give up on this :-) 18:47:44 <mattdm> yeah :/ 18:48:22 <bcotton_> but there are no recent updates that require the Council's help, so that's nice 18:48:31 <bcotton_> #topic Open floor 18:48:41 <bcotton_> anything for open floor? 18:48:45 * King_InuYasha shrugs 18:48:54 <King_InuYasha> Fedora 34 doesn't look like it'll beat Fedora 33 on changeset 18:48:59 <King_InuYasha> changeset numbers that is 18:49:11 <King_InuYasha> it got close though 18:49:57 <jwf> There were some new docs tickets opened as an FYI 18:50:12 <jwf> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/council-docs/issue/102 18:50:21 <jwf> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/council-docs/issue/103 18:50:31 <riecatnor> the D&I team is organizing a virtual meetup 18:50:36 <riecatnor> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-diversity/issue/189 18:51:43 <riecatnor> the community outreach/ambassador survey closed and the co-leads & folks from the TTF have begun to analyze the data 18:52:10 <jwf> Excited to see that :) 18:52:31 <mattdm> nice 18:52:38 <riecatnor> Under: What do you see other organizations doing that you think works well? 18:52:38 <riecatnor> "SuSE has the lizard suit girl mascot. Bring back Spot in a penguin suit." 18:52:55 <bcotton_> +1 18:53:32 <jwf> 🤣🤣 18:53:45 <mattdm> ha 18:54:01 <riecatnor> In all seriousness, there are some very interesting insights to gather 18:54:42 <riecatnor> Looking forward to sharing that in a digestible format :) 18:54:54 <spot> uhhh 18:55:10 <riecatnor> lol 18:56:02 <riecatnor> last piece of news, potentially the most important.. I have adopted two kittens! and named them Ruby & Sapphire 18:56:07 <riecatnor> that is all :) 18:56:14 <jwf> <3 18:56:59 <x3mboy> In a positive note, we are getting attention in the media for several stuff, not only technical 18:57:15 <bcotton_> #action riecatnor to post pictures of cats to matthew's pet thread on discussion.fp.o 18:57:16 <x3mboy> Like phoronix mentioning the amby's revamp 18:57:18 <jwf> Oh? 18:57:24 <jwf> nice! 18:57:38 <jwf> #link https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Fedora-Community-Outreach-21 18:57:49 <mattdm> OTHER CAT PICS ALSO WELCOME 18:58:12 <mattdm> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/pets-of-fedora/25180 18:58:41 <x3mboy> And several podcasts shows (DLN and Linux Unplugged) choosing Fedora 33 as beste desktop of 2020 18:59:51 <riecatnor> rad :) 19:00:16 <bcotton_> well on that positive note, that seems like a good time to 19:00:19 <bcotton_> #endmeeting