18:00:16 #startmeeting Council (2021-02-18) 18:00:16 Meeting started Thu Feb 18 18:00:16 2021 UTC. 18:00:16 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 18:00:16 The chair is bcotton_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:16 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00:16 The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2021-02-18)' 18:00:17 #meetingname council 18:00:17 The meeting name has been set to 'council' 18:00:19 #chair bookwar dcantrell jwf riecatnor spot mattdm bcotton asamalik x3mboy sumantrom marianab 18:00:19 Current chairs: bcotton_ bookwar dcantrell jwf riecatnor spot mattdm bcotton asamalik x3mboy marianab sumantrom 18:00:20 #topic Introductions, Welcomes 18:00:27 now it is time to say hi! 18:00:33 in an official, recorded way 18:00:34 .hello2 18:00:35 dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' 18:00:45 .hello jflory7 18:00:46 jwf|m: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' 18:01:03 .hello riecatnor 18:01:04 riecatnor: riecatnor 'Marie Nordin' 18:01:23 .hi 18:01:24 x3mboy: x3mboy 'Eduard Lucena' 18:02:26 .hello marianab 18:02:27 marianab[m]: marianab 'None' 18:02:50 Hello everyone 😃 18:03:28 #topic Today's agenda 18:03:29 #info Fedora annual survey 18:03:31 #info trademark request: redbubble store 18:03:32 #info Trademark Approval Request: Shells.com 18:03:34 #info Your topics here! 18:04:01 Ooh: matthew's soapbox on "fedora" vs "fedora linux" :) 18:04:02 #topic Fedora annual survey 18:04:03 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/327 18:04:04 I have an item for open floor, not urgent 18:04:05 #info previously: riecatnor was going to to review the content from the survey etherpad and repost into the ticket as a proposal 18:04:09 mattdm: ack 18:04:11 jwf|m: ack 18:04:23 .hello2 18:04:24 bookwar: bookwar 'Aleksandra Fedorova' 18:04:25 I have an item too 18:04:39 x3mboy: ack 18:04:44 I spent some time with siddharthvipul and improved some of the survey questions 18:04:51 mattdm: I am interested in your soapbox 18:05:00 I am curious bc there are a lot of general questions, what we are trying to achieve with the survey 18:05:05 I think we should be more concrete 18:05:23 I think there is a Matrix/IRC lag… FYI. 18:05:44 speaking of survey: http://communitycentral.tv/ will have a video on the topic soon 18:05:51 (like, "today" soon) 18:06:06 riecatnor: my main idea was to understand the footprint, the usage pattern for tools and apps 18:06:08 (I watched the presentation, it was good, it might interested folks) 18:06:24 but then i would like to map it to some "personas" 18:07:30 so it is not just the total average numbers for the entire userbase, but we can have different views on which types of users prefer which types of apps and tools 18:07:49 * King_InuYasha waves 18:07:52 .hello ngompa 18:07:53 King_InuYasha: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' 18:08:48 Thus i added some generic questions which may help provide additional insights 18:09:20 What do we plan to do with the results is another thing we should consider 18:09:28 riecatnor: what is your concern, that the information is irrelevant or that the survey is too long? 18:09:37 the survey is long 18:09:42 I'm for not worrying too much about the details of the first survey. I agree with riecatnor that we really need to focus on what we want to know to get the most out of it... but I think it's also okay to just get in the practice of sending a survey 18:09:52 It *is* long. 18:10:00 how long is long? 18:10:01 well, survey fatigue is a thing.. and we hold other surveys in the community 18:10:15 so, I am not sure it is good practice to just do it to do it 18:10:24 I am not against it, btw! 18:10:37 Just want to make sure we are getting something out of it, and we plan to do something with that 18:11:14 spot: https://hackmd.io/MqPUtYrnSOesig7hJ9RPQg?view 18:11:22 riecatnor: fair :) 18:11:42 whooo mattdm's twitter! 18:11:49 I vote for that! 18:12:00 If it is long, and we are worried people will not complete it, you can always do an opt-in "give us your info" for a prize drawing. 18:12:20 also, a badge on the thank you screen 18:12:20 +1 spot 18:12:23 there are 26 questions 18:12:25 That said, I think we probably should only do a survey annually. 18:12:26 +1 riecatnor 18:12:36 and each of them kind of straightforward 18:12:39 ++ riecatnor 18:12:43 +1 to spot's idea. :) 18:12:47 I don't even stay on the line to answer a 1 question survey, so 26 questions is a big ask 18:12:58 another thing is split it up, with three or five (or whatever) most important questions, and then "would you like to answer more" 18:12:59 13 is the suggested number of questions 18:12:59 dcantrell: even for a badge? 18:13:10 I don't need a badge 18:13:26 * bcotton_ faints 18:13:27 mattdm: i would argue that anything in the "would you like to answer more" probably doesn't belong in the survey 18:13:33 you either want that data or you do not 18:13:50 getting three generous people to answer skews the dataset. 18:13:53 Sorry, electrical failure at home 18:14:08 tbh, i think that the selling point of this particular survey is the possibility to tel us that you hate nano, or emacs, or flatpak, or modules 18:14:09 i guess, but "eh too long I'm not going to answer" also does 18:14:21 That is why I suggest really clarifying what we are trying to answer, and what we will do with it. That will allow us to trim the questions 18:14:29 riecatnor++ 18:14:29 spot: Karma for riecatnor changed to 15 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:14:29 It's something I've seen before and seemed like a good idea to me. We could ask someone with actual expertise in doing surveys about this. 18:14:56 riecatnor++ 18:15:17 bookwar: but I use flatpak to install nano to edit my .emacs file..... 18:15:30 mattdm: fwiw, my team just did a survey through a contracted survey company a few months ago and they gave us that exact advice "don't let people opt out, its either worth asking or not" 18:15:51 Identifying three key questions we would want to learn from a survey is a good start for a first survey. 18:15:54 spot ok, fair :) 18:16:53 We could use those questions to narrow down the questions from the full list 18:16:53 One thing we talked about when we were talking about this in... prague, I think? was doing one survey a year that basically repeats the same key questions, and then also one survey a year on (six months appart) that focuses on something specific (like, "how much do you love modularity?") 18:16:55 I think we can add in an intro section on the hackmd to work on these questions 18:17:30 With that in mind, I think the flatpaks/modules/silverblue questions cuold be moved from this to a survey specifically about those kind of usage things 18:18:11 A question I have is where the decentralized pockets of our community are. We know Fedora is big and there are small Fedora communities around the world, but where are they and how do we connect with them? Knowing more about platforms and preferences for using FOSS would be very insightful to me 18:19:27 So if you take a look at shotrened overview (without variants) it looks like this: https://paste.centos.org/view/9bc0487c 18:19:39 jwf|web: I would like to know that too, but is a survey the best tool for finding them? 18:20:10 tangent, but I think internationalizing this survey should be done. 18:20:17 mattdm: Potentially, but curious for your ideas on alternates. 18:20:18 The "Contact" part is really optional, i don't mind to skip it and put into demographic survey 18:20:32 if we cut the last two sections from bookwar's shortened version, i'm happy to say "This is good enough, let's try it. we won't get better at it if we never do it" 18:20:34 spot yes great idea 18:20:43 We would want to make this question a bit more specific. In the current state, the people might just skip it. 18:21:16 bcotton: you mean, remove the part with "If you were making your own Fedora spin..." 18:21:23 bookwar: yes, and the meta 18:21:24 i agree it is probably too heavy 18:21:25 Yes, some word-smithing needed :) But getting at the idea of understanding where people are, how we can connect with them, and to make sure we are leveraging our communication channels more effectively 18:21:55 jwf|web: a mapping project with someone actively reaching out to make contacts and create a document, I think. 18:21:56 Those are insights I would want from a survey 18:22:07 Giving options with most generally used communication mediums can be a good start with the rephrasing. 18:22:35 mattdm: Yikes. I mean that can work but it is a lot of work on a single person to do that lift. 18:22:37 Also i'd rather send a survey and get a flood of messages about how we made it all wrong, so we get it better next time, then not to send it at all 18:22:48 jwf|web: specifically, I think a survey has a huge downside for that purpose because it will be weighted towards the channels we already know about and promote the survey on 18:22:53 bookwar++ 18:23:01 bookwar++ 18:23:28 jwf|web: might be an interesting intern project? 18:23:30 mattdm: OK. Trying to think back to riecatnor's point about thinking about what we want to get out of a survey 18:23:31 bookwar, it is less about getting told we are doing it wrong, then getting useless information 18:23:43 or information we don't plan to do anything with 18:23:43 I don't know if we have clearly identified that as the Council yet 18:23:54 I am adding in peoples comments to the doc 18:24:05 #proposed #agreed We will use https://paste.centos.org/view/9bc0487c minus the "If you were making your own Fedora spin" and "Meta" sections and ask the translators to internationalize it so we can begin the process 18:24:25 let's just get something done and see how badly we did :-) 18:24:28 -1 18:24:32 because we can refine it forever 18:24:46 riecatnor: i don't think it is useless. One question itself maybe not that interesting, but the correlation between questions is what i am after 18:25:06 Can we clarify exactly what we are trying to achieve, minimally? 18:25:07 how many people would say that they are newbies and they still like nano? 18:25:09 -1 18:25:15 riecatnor: Same question 18:25:30 And documenting that somewhere. A CommBlog post, a Discourse thread, anything 18:26:01 "which types of users prefer which types of apps and tools" 18:26:05 I don't think it would be correct relate experience with the use of text editor. Some folks might just be acclimated to the user-friendliness. :-) 18:26:35 t0xic0der[m]: i am not making conclusions, i need data before i would try to make any 18:26:42 Lots of parameters to consider here which keeps the generalizations to the backseat. 18:27:23 I think we have a great start to this work and we have material we can ship, but not sure what the best format is for us to think through our goals and objectives with a survey 18:27:39 Especially since we have not done this before, we can only make one first impression 18:27:55 And I'd like to do it right to increase probability of engagement in future surveys 18:27:56 Certainly. 18:28:33 jwf: it is agile world, we are not doing impressions, we are doing iterative development :) 18:29:16 by sending the survey we also start the active discussion on whether it is interesting 18:29:17 Slow improvements over time. Learned that in my college. :D 18:29:19 okay, so we've spent about half of the meeting on this. what are the next steps? 18:29:22 bookwar, my point about survey fatigue needs to be considered 18:30:02 clarify what we are trying to achieve, and what we will do with the results 18:30:35 bcotton_: I wonder if we should bring this to a video meeting? I wonder if it is challenging to get our points across over text on this, given we spent so much time on this 18:30:49 So... we can consider going back to my Net Promoter Score proposal. 18:30:55 One question: "On a scale of 1-10, how likely are you to recommend Fedora Linux to a friend?" 18:31:20 mattdm: that feels like a weird question to ask the Fedora community, but i get it. 18:31:25 "On a scale of 1-10, how likely are you to recommand participation in the Fedora Project to a friend?" 18:31:39 riecatnor: i think you keep missing my answer "which types of users prefer which types of apps and tools" - this is what i want to know 18:32:06 Ah, I saw this, I think it would be great to formalize it 18:32:17 plus, we did get more feedback from others too 18:32:19 #idea Q: Which types of users prefer which types of apps and tools? 18:32:20 i need to understand if we have separate groups in the community with nonoverlapping intersets, or we have a more random thing without explicit clusters 18:32:32 bookwar: i guess that raises two questions for me. 1) how do we group users into types, and 2) what do we do with that information once we have it? 18:32:35 *interests 18:32:46 #idea Q: What platforms does our community use and where can we best engage them? 18:33:04 +1. Good question, now that the community is using it - they would want to recommend supporting it. 18:33:32 mattdm: that's what "about you" section supposed to be 18:33:38 jwf|web: I do like that, just worried that we'll get results that mirror our survey distribution 18:33:39 Communication platforms, you mean jwf|web ? 18:34:12 bookwar: ah, I see. so, are those the right "about you" questions to get to that point? given that we have to stay away from pii type questions... 18:35:01 mattdm: It is a valid concern. But it is also a first survey, so we could make a hypothesis and see if we are right. 18:35:36 I'm sensing we have a lot more to work out on this topic and a pretty wide divide between "get something out and iterate" views and "make sure the first impression counts" views.... 18:35:50 Are we likely to get those closer together in the next, say, ten minutes? 18:36:00 t0xic0der: Communication platforms like defined here: https://chaoss.community/metric-chat-platform-inclusivity/ 18:36:19 for example there might be a theory, and i will use nano as example again, that "usage of nano correlates with not using IRC". I want to check that 18:36:38 Could we defer this to a dedicated-topic video meeting? 18:36:48 I think there is a full meeting for just this topic 18:37:02 In the "What is your preferred desktop environment?" question, are we specifically sticking to the DE spins available as of now? 18:37:11 +1 jwf 18:38:17 Proposal: we need a higher-bandwidth meeting of people interested in working on this. Let's schedule that and move on now? 18:38:24 +1 18:38:25 i mean we discussed it in the last council f2f, didn't we? i don't feel like we've made any progress 18:38:52 Higher-bandwidth meeting to talk about goals / insights we want to learn, and narrow it down to 2-3 key insights or questions 18:39:05 who wants that #action? 18:39:10 I will feel more confident going forward with anything once we have formed a hypothesis around what we want to learn 18:39:33 we need at least one person from the +1 shippit and -1 focus first camps 18:39:49 i am ok with bringing this topic to the meeting, though i don't see the questions as not answered. I think I gave the reasons _I_ want the survey. So i would expect others then either come up with different goals so we can negotiate, or come up with counter-arguments 18:40:12 why do you see my goal as not a valid one 18:40:23 then we can discuss it more productively 18:40:38 It is valid! But I want to spend more time thinking about those things. Coming with counter-arguments is a good #action 18:40:49 Or just other perspectives on what we want to learn and why 18:40:58 I am happy to participate in this meeting but I very much do not want the action 18:41:18 i can take an action to write the summary of my point in the ticket 18:41:33 I could pick this up in the first half of March, but the second-half of my months are harder for me to take new actions 18:41:34 bookwar, can you add what you would like to do with the results 18:41:38 bookwar: do you not want to do a further meeting? 18:41:54 it is almost first half of march anyway 18:41:59 lol 18:42:12 mattdm: if people will be still voting as -1, then we will need a meeting :) 18:42:35 mattdm: lolol. 18:42:36 i'll take bcotton's suggestion on removing the heavier questions from the end also 18:42:38 I joined the meet a minute before it started so I'd try to come up with more of them (and justifications) in the next one. Thanks for the invite @jwf|web. 18:43:00 Sure thing :) 18:43:46 so, tag bookwar and jwf|web for organizing meeting early march? Plus me so at least three of us? 18:43:47 okay, i'm moving the meeting along. if someone wants to take ownership of coordinatiing a resolution, great. if not, i'll just leave it off the agenda until someone speaks up 18:44:04 mattdm +1 18:44:09 #action bookwar and jwf|web to coordinate a meeting to discuss the survey goals 18:44:17 ok 18:44:23 #topic trademark request: redbubble store 18:44:24 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/347 18:44:26 mattdm are you still interested in this? 18:45:22 bcotton_: no, go ahead and formally drop 18:45:26 I'll come up with something else. 18:45:39 I have been told we are aiming to get a new cool stuff store solution up in the May timeframe 18:45:40 #info mattdm withdraws the request 18:45:51 #topic Trademark Approval Request: Shells.com 18:45:52 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/349 18:47:14 So, quick update: Alex from Shells is going to organize a meeting for fedora community members to look at the technical side. To posted soon. 18:47:30 I think that plus the ongoing discussion in ticket is good for now. 18:47:44 #info Alex from Shells is going to organize a meeting for fedora community members to look at the technical side. To be posted soon. 18:48:10 #topic Next meeting 18:48:12 #info The next regular business meeting is Thursday 4 March 18:48:15 #topic Do we have anything to announce? 18:48:16 #info This is a regular check to make sure we're communicating to the contributor (via CommBlog) and user (via Magazine) communities 18:48:18 things already announced 18:48:19 #info DevConf.CZ is today through Saturday 18:48:21 anything else? 18:49:51 #topic Open floor 18:49:55 mattdm: your turn 18:50:27 So, you all probably know that I have an ongoing quixotic quest to change perception of the word "Fedora" to mean the project and community, not the operating system bits 18:50:43 Just like Red Hat is not RHEL, and Microsoft is not Windows 18:51:05 To that end, bcotton_ has checked with legal and gotten clearance to refer to the OS as "Fedora Linux" 18:51:32 so can we refer to ELN as "Fedora Enterprise Linux"? 18:51:38 so that's officially a thing we can do now, and is less unweildy than "the operating system and software bits producted by the Fedora Project" 18:51:44 dcantrell: please don't ) 18:51:52 dcantrell: depends on how much you want me to get yelled at :) 18:52:03 bookwar: I'll try really hard not to :) 18:52:10 mattdm: I'll save it for difficult days 18:52:12 Fedora ELN is not a distribution, it is a subproject 18:52:16 annyway. 18:52:26 We're planning a commblog post about this soon. 18:52:34 mattdm: and yes, Fedora Linux is less unweildy than the previous string 18:52:48 mattdm: surely, you meant Fedora GN... i'll stop. 18:52:53 what is the answer for the inevitable question of "why not Fedora GNU/Linux" 18:52:57 spot: no interjections 18:52:58 spot: you know it's coming 18:52:59 If council members can try to follow this usage, it'll make me happy 18:53:11 * nirik wondered if there was any news about matrix server. we have a open ticket to help them with auth, but crickets. ;) 18:53:12 spot: yeah bcotton_ made that joke *months* ago 18:53:27 nirik: we _almost_ have news on that 18:53:40 ok, cool. Just wanted to make sure it was still a thing 18:54:05 mattdm: EOF? 18:54:55 mattdm: I mean, jokes aside, people will ask and more importantly it will come up in comment threads and articles 18:55:12 dcantrell: that's what the commblog article is for 18:55:21 bcotton_: yes 18:55:23 jwf|web: tag, you're it 18:55:44 Great, the term I was already using is legally cleared 18:55:46 ah, ok, I thought the commblog article was simply announcing it 18:56:12 bcotton_: Wait, to write the CommBlog article? 18:57:01 dcantrell: the basic answer is: there's more than GNU, and adding a long string of all the things it is would be a mess? 18:57:20 nirik: on Element, we hit some snags in procurement but are almost done 18:57:25 let me clarify, I know what the answer is but I want to make sure I use the same wording and phrasing for my answer if I am asked 18:57:29 jwf|web: no, you had an open floor item 18:57:37 Oh right 18:57:43 I'll just wait for the blog post 18:58:15 You just got "assigned". 18:58:18 (I think) 18:58:19 I just wanted to share that I plan to step down as D&I Advisor at the end of F34. I have shared that with some of you but wasn't sure if I had shared in a Council meeting 18:58:20 dcantrell++ 18:58:20 mattdm: Karma for dcantrel changed to 5 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:58:32 I am working with riecatnor to identify a successor 18:58:34 Stay tuned :) 18:58:41 jwf|web thanks for your work this time around! 18:58:47 jwf|web++ 18:58:51 jwf|web: can't wait to have you back in a few years :p 18:59:00 lolol oh my 18:59:03 x3mboy: okay, the last minute is yours 18:59:19 Sorry 18:59:26 I was without electricity 19:00:03 I've been working with a new colab in recovering the podcast, the new website is done, and we are ready to reship next week 19:00:16 x3mboy++ 19:00:24 x3mboy++ 19:00:33 x3mboy++ 19:00:34 spot: Karma for x3mboy changed to 14 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 19:00:39 The thing is that the people of the Destination Linux Network are asking for colaboration 19:01:12 x3mboy++ 19:01:26 x3mboy that seems... good? 19:01:28 Is there any reason we would not want to collaborate with them? 19:01:38 I was talking with bcotton_ and I will follow the advice to pass through mindshare in case any concerns about the methodology of work 19:01:55 And there a trademark approval ticket 19:01:58 Or clarification on what a collaboration can mean, and if they can use the Fedora trademark? 19:02:02 Makes sense 19:02:08 Exactly the point 19:02:12 A new Council ticket makes the most sense to me 19:02:35 I was talking with @michaeltunnell and basically they want to put our show as part of their network 19:02:49 We can benefit of the large audience and the marketing infra 19:03:00 And they benefit as collaborating directly with a distro 19:03:05 makes sense to me too 19:03:05 Yes, help with infrastructure for the podcast would be amazing 19:03:27 I don't mind Fedora Linux being the Destination Linux destination :) 19:03:40 :) 19:03:51 That's it. I will open the mindshare ticket to give it a week of discussion and then move to the trademark thingy 19:04:02 eom 19:04:22 awesome 19:04:45 we are over time, so thanks everyone and we'll see y'all around the interwebz 19:04:47 #endmeeting