18:00:16 <smooge> #startmeeting fedora-server
18:00:16 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Mar 17 18:00:16 2021 UTC.
18:00:16 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:00:16 <zodbot> The chair is smooge. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:16 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:16 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-server'
18:00:16 <smooge> #chair michel_slm pboyHB nirik
18:00:16 <zodbot> Current chairs: michel_slm nirik pboyHB smooge
18:00:25 <smooge> #topic Introductions
18:00:38 <nirik> morning (but also in another meeting)
18:00:56 <smooge> I am also in another meeting
18:01:16 <pboyHB> good ebening, here in Germany    and I'm not in another meeting. :-)
18:01:27 <smooge> Southern_Gentlem, copperi_ pboyHB if one of you can run this I would be happy to hand it over
18:02:20 <pboyHB> well. I could, but mybe copperi today??  In order to keep chair changing?
18:02:45 <smooge> pboyHB, so I was thinking that we may want to move this to a weekly meeting because people seem to keep forgetting
18:03:11 <jwhimpel> .hello jwhimpel
18:03:12 <zodbot> jwhimpel: jwhimpel 'John Himpel' <john@jlhimpel.net>
18:03:17 <pboyHB> I agree, we a lot of things to discuss to make progress
18:04:14 <cmurf> 30m every week is better than 1h every other week, because of the consistency
18:04:30 <pboyHB> smooge: if we make it weekly, we can dedicate the meeting to one or two topics and get it done
18:04:45 <smooge> yeah I think
18:04:59 <copperi_> sounds good
18:05:02 <smooge> yeah I agree (sorry the I think was for the other meeting)
18:05:10 <Astranox> .hello astra
18:05:11 <zodbot> Astranox: astra 'David Kaufmann' <astra@ionic.at>
18:05:53 <pboyHB> Hello cmurf, are you the first time here? or just a different nick?
18:06:00 <smooge> ok I think we are ready for the next item
18:06:07 <smooge> #topic Housekeeping (next meeting and chair)
18:06:45 <smooge> #idea Move the meeting to weekly with a minimum 30 minute and possible 1 hour
18:07:12 <pboyHB> Should we go for next week now? it would be 24.3.?
18:07:16 <copperi_> proposal next week wednesday at 18.00 UTC
18:07:19 <smooge> Also who can run the next meeting
18:07:29 <smooge> +1 to 24.3 1800 UTC
18:07:39 <pboyHB> copperI could you?
18:07:40 <Southern_Gentlem> +1
18:07:44 <nirik> could we do 17 UTC? :)
18:08:00 <copperi_> yes I can
18:08:01 <Southern_Gentlem> 17 works better for me as well
18:08:18 <cmurf> pboyHB: same nick, I've been in server meetings before, just not recently
18:08:33 <pboyHB> 17:00 UTC worksfor me too. Who is able to change the calendar?
18:09:07 <pboyHB> cmurf: thanks. Whats you FAS account (for my book keeping :-) )
18:10:08 <cmurf> chrismurphy
18:10:17 <Astranox> pboyHB: the entry seems to be owned by user salimma
18:11:00 <smooge> ok new proposal
18:11:06 <pboyHB> cmurf: I should have guessed. :-) And thanks for various infos on the mailing list-
18:11:10 <x3mboy> hi
18:11:13 <cmurf> michel_slm: is on vacation but can probably change the calendar, eventually :)
18:11:16 <x3mboy> .hi
18:11:17 <zodbot> x3mboy: x3mboy 'Eduard Lucena' <eduardlucena@gmail.com>
18:11:29 <smooge> #propose Meeting will be moved to 1700 UTC and weekly. so next meeting is 2020-03-24 1700 UTC
18:11:35 <nirik> +1
18:11:40 <pboyHB> +1
18:11:42 <Southern_Gentlem> +!
18:11:45 <smooge> not sure if #propose is corract syntax
18:11:45 <x3mboy> +1
18:11:45 <Southern_Gentlem> 1
18:12:01 <smooge> Southern_Gentlem, +!! would execute the last one too :)
18:12:02 <jwhimpel> +1
18:12:20 <smooge> any votes against?
18:12:22 <Southern_Gentlem> +1
18:12:41 <smooge> #agreed Meeting will be moved to 1700 UTC and weekly. so next meeting is 2020-03-24 1700 UTC
18:12:46 <pboyHB> I'll contact Michel, at least he answered to my emails, so hi ist not out of the world
18:13:57 <pboyHB> OK, and the chair? copperi?
18:14:10 <smooge> I have updated calendar
18:14:24 <smooge> Next week who can chair?
18:14:26 <pboyHB> smooge: thanks. saves me an email
18:14:32 <smooge> copperi ?
18:14:32 <Southern_Gentlem> smooge, make that an info please
18:14:43 <smooge> #info Meeting will be moved to 1700 UTC and weekly. so next meeting is 2020-03-24 1700 UTC
18:14:44 <copperi_> ok
18:14:52 <smooge> Southern_Gentlem, thanks. I don't know what zod likes
18:14:56 <pboyHB> copper:  +1
18:15:04 <Southern_Gentlem> the you updated the calendar one please
18:15:28 <smooge> #info I have updated the Fedora Calendar https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/meeting/9898/
18:15:34 <Southern_Gentlem> bingo
18:16:00 <smooge> #info copperi will chair next meeting
18:16:08 <smooge> #topic Work needed for Fedora 34
18:17:23 <smooge> So the pre-beta work is being done. I am not sure what our requirements for this or next release would be. This would be a nirik and adamw question but I expect they are busy
18:18:31 <pboyHB> I suppose, there are changes that needs testing. Is there a list / first draft of release notes?
18:18:44 <adamw> ooh sorry
18:19:02 <adamw> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/34/ChangeSet has the f34 Changes
18:19:27 <adamw> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_34_Beta_1.2_Server are the validation tests for the current Beta RC, download links at top of page
18:20:00 <adamw> most of them are run by automation, the AD tests are not automated, sgallagh usually helps run those but he was busy last week; he's given me a login for his setup, i'll try and test there today if no-one else does
18:21:04 <jwhimpel> Was it ever decided if systemd-oomd was going to be "on" by default in fedora-server in f34?
18:21:13 <smooge> adamw, please thank coconut for all the testing
18:21:34 <adamw> hehe
18:21:37 <adamw> it is on by default
18:21:39 <sgallagh> smooge: Yeah, we need to make sure to put a lime in it.
18:21:42 <adamw> (afaik)
18:22:19 <sgallagh> adamw: I'll try to get that testing done today, but my schedule is super-tight. I'll ping you if I get the opportunity so you know if you can skip it.
18:22:44 <jwhimpel> It doesn't seem like it would play will with transaction processing, database servers, etc to have one of those key tasks killed.
18:23:02 <jwhimpel> s/will/sell/
18:23:02 <pboyHB> The list is impressive. I try to figure what a not-maintainer / packager can do. But I#m a bit lost.
18:24:38 <adamw> there isn't actually a lot of specific testing for a human to do these days as we automated almost everything
18:24:50 <adamw> you can always just do one of the tests manually still, and check the robot isn't wrong :P
18:26:18 <adamw> jwhimpel: well, the alternative isn't great either, is it?
18:26:50 <adamw> and there are some scenarios where it'd probably be useful: say the service is set to auto-restart smoothly, and it happens to have a memory leak
18:27:01 <adamw> instead of getting stuck thrashing swap it'll just get killed and restarted
18:28:08 <pboyHB> adamw: OK, I'll try to convict the postgres robot. :-)
18:28:10 <smooge> all sorts of oom have never played well on servers.. mainly because everyone wants some other process to be immune etc
18:28:34 <cmurf> oomd testing week starts tomorrow
18:28:47 <adamw> right, the point at which the system is out of memory is kinda inherently a point at which all choices are going to be bad forsomeone
18:29:12 <cmurf> note that systemd-oomd is based on oomd2 which is server oriented, but is now intended to be more generic
18:29:31 <jwhimpel> Killing an individual transaction isn't too bad, but killing the whole server is pretty drastic.
18:30:06 <pboyHB> Are there changes that require / recommend  administrators to check their installation? something like. resolved?
18:30:13 <cmurf> it's only going to kill something if the system is under some kind of resource pressure
18:30:13 <smooge> cmurf, for a lot of sysadmins.. any sort of automatic thing which seconds guess them is bad. [automatic vs standard transmissions etc]
18:30:36 <smooge> anyway.. this is not a place to discuss it.
18:30:44 <smooge> Test it next week with oomd testing
18:30:53 <smooge> cmurf, do you have a URL for what is needed for that?
18:31:00 <cmurf> the idea is to prevent an application from taking down critical services, which you get to define however you want, but one of those would be sshd so you can pretty much always get a look inside what's going on
18:31:32 <cmurf> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/EnableSystemdOomd
18:31:38 <cmurf> if it's not there, we need to add it
18:31:54 <smooge> #info Test week for oomd is next week https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/EnableSystemdOomd
18:32:01 <smooge> #info please test
18:32:10 <smooge> #topic PRD Update 1.5
18:32:13 <adamw> pboyHB: i think the goal of resolved is that it should be 'transparent', it should get enabled on upgrade and name resolution should keep working
18:32:32 <adamw> one thing i wonder is what happens if you have a non-default existing config, e.g. networkmanager with dnsmasq. i'm not 100% sure that's been decided/tested
18:32:43 <cmurf> sorry test week specific info is here:
18:32:45 <nirik> I think it's supposed to leave it alone
18:32:46 <cmurf> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2021-03-18_Systemd-OOMd_Test_Week
18:32:57 <nirik> but always good to test (more)
18:33:00 <smooge> we didn't get to PRD last meeting I think so pboyHB can cover what is needed
18:33:53 <pboyHB> Yes, we should walk through the capters, probably useing https://hackmd.io/@x3mboy/By5OkH71O
18:34:20 * smooge needs to step away for 5 minutes.
18:34:28 <smooge> could someone continue
18:34:33 <pboyHB> Biggest issue: we need someone to correct my GermanEnglish. :-)
18:34:49 <pboyHB> smooge: I can
18:34:54 <adamw> i'll do my best to help with that at some point after beta's done
18:35:25 <pboyHB> adamw: Thanks, I'm sure you are quite busy nowadays
18:36:33 <pboyHB> OK, what about our vision? My intention, we make the Fedora vision a reality for the server business.
18:36:51 <pboyHB> not intention: intention of my proposal
18:37:57 <nirik> I like the proposed vision. ;)
18:37:57 <adamw> i'm not sure what that means
18:38:01 <adamw> but then i'm terrible at visions
18:38:01 <adamw> :D
18:38:05 * nirik also
18:38:49 <pboyHB> adamw: that's the problem. So I delegate it to the council, responsilbe for Fedora's vision
18:38:52 <nirik> I would reword it a tiny bit tho.
18:39:18 <smooge> x3mboy, thanks for the work on this
18:39:31 <adamw> oh, so the idea is basically "our vision statement is the Fedora one, but for servers"?
18:39:44 <nirik> "organizations, individual users, and developers" could just be 'everyone' ?
18:39:46 <pboyHB> adamw: yes!
18:40:33 <nirik> "to get the deployment of applications and services done in reality –" could just be "to deploy and maintain applications and services"
18:41:13 <pboyHB> nirik: yes but we speak about 2 target groups: developers and "users"
18:41:45 <pboyHB> nirik: your proposal's wording is beter than mine, for sure.
18:41:46 <adamw> maybe 'production' then?
18:42:46 <nirik> I suppose if we want them there so we can have different targets that makes sense... just seems confusing when really we are saying "everyone who we hope uses this"
18:42:55 <nirik> but yeah, wording is always... tedious.
18:42:58 <pboyHB> adamw: yes, our discussion was,  latest version, but stable enough for"usual" production
18:45:01 <pboyHB> OK, I think we agree about the idea. Who could make  a new wording?
18:46:07 <nirik> I can make comments on the doc? or could we have another col for discussed? I'm not sure the best way to go over documents like this as a group.
18:46:24 <Southern_Gentlem> pboyHB, most people will not run fedora in production becasue on its short lifespan
18:46:47 <pboyHB> nirik: I think the easiest way is to add a comment.
18:47:36 <pboyHB> nirik: or you can download my libreoffice version and then send it back to me.
18:48:05 <nirik> well, happy to add comments... but we should get everyone to do that...
18:48:58 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik, gobby?
18:48:59 <smooge> ok anything else on this for this meeting?
18:49:05 <smooge> gobby died long ago
18:49:07 <pboyHB> Southern_gentlem: yes, we disussed that, and some people welcome the short life span
18:49:29 <Southern_Gentlem> then no problem
18:49:40 <pboyHB> Well, we have some more sectiopns. :-). But our time is out?
18:49:41 <nirik> ok, added comment. others can add in too
18:49:52 <smooge> will look at next section next week
18:50:09 <pboyHB> OK. we continue next week.
18:50:17 <smooge> #topic Open Floor
18:50:41 <smooge> I do not think we will hit documentation as a subject this week so it will also be next week. it can be covered under open floor
18:51:27 <copperi_> #link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-server/
18:51:48 <copperi_> You can make PR's against repo as well
18:52:23 <pboyHB> smooge: Yes, and thanks to copperi we have a semi public preview of the documentation work so far.
18:52:32 <smooge> thanks copperi_
18:52:54 <nirik> nice!
18:54:39 <smooge> ok something is up with weber
18:54:51 <smooge> #endmeeting