17:00:57 <pboyHB> #startmeeting fedora-server
17:00:57 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Mar 31 17:00:57 2021 UTC.
17:00:57 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:00:57 <zodbot> The chair is pboyHB. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:57 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:57 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-server'
17:01:04 <michel_slm> fedora-meeting-1 looks like it has a meeting conflict :p (I know it's not the Rust SIG meeting :p)
17:01:09 <michel_slm> .hello salimma
17:01:10 <zodbot> michel_slm: salimma 'Michel Alexandre Salim' <michel@michel-slm.name>
17:01:17 <pboyHB> hi everyone!
17:01:24 <ab> .hello abbra
17:01:26 <pboyHB> We should give a few minutes for folks to show up
17:01:26 <zodbot> ab: abbra 'None' <abokovoy@redhat.com>
17:01:36 <copperi> .hello2
17:01:37 <zodbot> copperi: copperi 'Jan Kuparinen' <copper_fin@hotmail.com>
17:01:39 <pboyHB> #info please say either .hello2  or .hello <fasname>  (the latter if your nick here is not your fasname)
17:01:57 <jdubby> .hello jwhimpel
17:01:58 <zodbot> jdubby: jwhimpel 'John Himpel' <john@jlhimpel.net>
17:01:59 <pboyHB> I’ll post the agenda next
17:02:20 <pboyHB> #topic Agenda
17:02:28 <dcavalca> .hi
17:02:28 <pboyHB> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/server@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/JMZY2TI3W6QMKDPNSZ2SRQN5QDW46A4A/
17:02:28 <zodbot> dcavalca: dcavalca 'Davide Cavalca' <dcavalca@fb.com>
17:02:37 <pboyHB> 1. PRD Update Section 3: Fedora Server Mission
17:02:42 * nirik is fighting some fires today. ;( ping me if I can help with anything.
17:02:48 <pboyHB> 2. PRD Update Section 4: Market Opportunity
17:02:57 <pboyHB> 3. PRD Update Section 6: Server Edition Objectives & 6.1 Additional Obj.
17:03:04 <pboyHB> 4. New Documentation: menue items#
17:03:12 <pboyHB> 5. New Documentation: how/when going online
17:03:20 <pboyHB> 6. New Documentation: landing page (proposal)
17:03:26 <pboyHB> 7. Open Floor
17:03:34 <pboyHB> Any additions?
17:04:25 <pboyHB> #topic PRD Update Section 3: Fedora Server Mission
17:04:33 <pboyHB> #link  https://hackmd.io/@x3mboy/By5OkH71O
17:04:43 <pboyHB> I would like to discuss the PRD a maximum of 2/3 of our time and dedicate the remaining time to docs.
17:04:51 <pboyHB> The goal is to push both projects forward.
17:04:58 <pboyHB> Last meeting we discussed Section 4.1 but didn’t discuss and decide about section 3 (nor section 4.0)
17:05:08 <pboyHB> As to further proceeding: The current plan is: We will transfer the results of our discussion into a "one page" version, which we can then finally discuss and decide on
17:05:20 <pboyHB> floor is open
17:08:58 <pboyHB> Well, from my side, I would like to Change the ordering, first user, second developer
17:10:38 <pboyHB> I see no objections ?
17:11:29 <pboyHB> #agreed Section 3, change order, first user, second developer
17:11:30 <michel_slm> if there's no objection in a meeting, should we just assume the text is OK? rather than waiting for people to actually +1 the text
17:11:40 <michel_slm> ah, I see that's what we're doing :)
17:11:57 <dcavalca> yeah, fwiw section 3 looks great to me
17:12:08 <pboyHB> What about the arguments (not the wording)
17:12:53 <pboyHB> So, there is no objection about the argument / the message to bring
17:13:53 <pboyHB> We need a native speaker to revise the wording (e.g. that "at short notive term ")
17:14:00 <dcavalca> as I said last time, I think the "server of the future" messaging is great and makes it very clear where Server is positioned
17:14:06 <dcavalca> so that's a +1 for me
17:14:39 <pboyHB> #agreed content of sectoipn 3
17:15:43 <michel_slm> the wording is not fixed yet, right, just the message? "at short notice" at the very end seems slightly vague, but I don't really have an objection
17:16:02 <pboyHB> we can postpone the revision of the wording until later. This concerns all sections.
17:16:31 <pboyHB> #topic PRD Update Section 4: Market Opportunity
17:17:09 <pboyHB> Again: what about the argument, the message (not hte wording again)
17:18:57 <pboyHB> #agreed Section 4, content and argument. Revision of the wording later
17:19:23 <michel_slm> +1
17:19:29 <ab> +1
17:19:38 <michel_slm> TL;DR targeting early adopters
17:20:15 <pboyHB> michel_slm: +1
17:20:41 <michel_slm> is #5 missing from the list?
17:20:46 <pboyHB> #agreed Adding target early adopters
17:21:40 <pboyHB> michel_slm: The inevitable: Can you put a phrase in the comment?
17:21:43 <michel_slm> (oh, early adopters are already mentioned in the current text, just saying that seems to be the theme of the section 4 argument)
17:22:20 <michel_slm> second paragraph has it
17:22:25 <dcavalca> yeah, fwiw that's my read as well (which I think is fine)
17:22:43 <pboyHB> Oh yes, I see. (I forgot my own text, tut.tut.tut)
17:23:37 <pboyHB> Anything elase, otherwise I switch topic (we are very quick today)
17:24:38 <pboyHB> #topic PRD Update Section 6: Server Edition Objectives & 6.1 Additional Obj.
17:25:10 <pboyHB> There are no comments yet. Any idea here?
17:25:54 <pboyHB> What about the arguments?  (It's quite a lot).
17:25:55 <ab> in general, they look good, though I added one comment that we lack FreeIPA in the infrastructure part. This should also apply to other sections, for example personas consistenly lack own infrastructure there.
17:26:33 <ab> we have many hobbysts and small companies running FreeIPA on Fedora as their infra
17:27:39 <michel_slm> yeah, I think adding FreeIPA in the same breath as DNS and DHCP probably makes sense. Esp given it also seems to require some effort to upkeep in the past (with the Java 11 migration)
17:27:56 <pboyHB> ab: Is FreeIPA a general objective or rather an important service, comparable with Apache?
17:29:07 <Southern_Gentlem> most people are not going to run RDE on a server they will ssh in
17:29:11 <ab> pboyHB: both. We have been discussing Fedora Server at Flocks in past in terms of it being a primary definition of FreeIPA-based secure infrastructure for enterprise/home deployments
17:29:46 <pboyHB> ab:  I have you here on my note asking if you could contribute to our doc with FreeIPA (that's not a threat. :-) )
17:30:18 <ab> pboyHB: my primary issue is a lack of time for that (I wish I had some for my sleep too)
17:30:34 * michel_slm wishes he gets more sleep too
17:30:48 <pboyHB> ab: welcome in the club. But ok.
17:32:21 <pboyHB> We may add a topic like "provide basic services" and add DNS, DHCP, FreeIPA and probably others.
17:32:46 <ab> we can start with that, yes
17:33:09 <ab> right now the changes in the right column look more like notes than the final text
17:33:25 <pboyHB> #agreed. Add topic about basic services (DNS, DHCP, FreeIPA and others)
17:34:12 <pboyHB> OK, any other missing argument or message?
17:34:28 <ab> pboyHB: a working FreeIPA deployment is a blocker criteria for Fedora Server releases, btw.
17:35:26 <pboyHB> ab: OK, we may check if it still is.
17:35:40 <michel_slm> ab: do you have a link to the blocker criteria? might be worth having it referenced in the logs
17:36:39 <ab> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Basic_Release_Criteria#FreeIPA_server_requirements
17:37:44 <ab> it needs some uplifting because we also need to include replica operation into that as we test for it in OpenQA already but that's extension of the existing requirement
17:38:24 <ab> there are more criteria about Server Edition, btw.
17:39:38 <michel_slm> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Basic_Release_Criteria#Server_Edition_requirements
17:39:38 <pboyHB> The page it rather recent (Jan. 2021) so it can't actually be obsolete.
17:39:50 <michel_slm> here's all the server requirements it seems, including FreeIPA
17:40:19 <michel_slm> ah, it's just the section immediately surrounding it
17:41:40 <ab> yep
17:41:50 <pboyHB> I suppose, we should discuss that on one of our next meetings.
17:43:07 <pboyHB> Back to PRD. I'll aggree the content, if here are no further ideas.
17:44:09 <pboyHB> #agreed  content section 6, with addition of "basic services" as discussed.
17:44:24 <pboyHB> #topic New Documentation: menue items
17:44:34 <pboyHB> #link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-server/
17:44:45 <pboyHB> Something missing? / something superfluous?
17:46:47 <michel_slm> looks nice after briefly perusing it. Fedora Server Documentation needs to be consistently capitalized in the navigation bar
17:47:35 <pboyHB> michel_slm: thanks for the hint.
17:48:23 <pboyHB> If no further ideas, I'll agree the navigation items.  adn switch topic
17:49:26 <pboyHB> #agreed  intended navigation items as current preview
17:49:37 <pboyHB> #topic New Documentation: how/when going online
17:50:35 <pboyHB> We should go online as soon as possible and need a self-sustaining partial content. e.p: landing page, installation virualization Container.
17:50:59 <pboyHB> These texts can be completed in 2-4 weeks.
17:51:26 <pboyHB> Is that too little? Are we embarrassing ourselves with it?
17:52:59 <jdubby> While it certainly will not be comprehensive, for now let's focus on accurate and complete
17:53:07 <michel_slm> I think it looks fine and we can iterate as we go along. maybe... add a pointer to the old docs and mentioned they're being brought over?
17:53:30 <michel_slm> (and mention they might not be accurate). if we think we can iterate quickly though, maybe don't bother linking to the wiki
17:53:48 <pboyHB> michel_slm: Issue is, there is not much old docs.
17:54:12 <ab> do we have upstream documentation we can link to?
17:54:55 <pboyHB> ab: as good as nothing. And that is largely outdated
17:55:03 <ab> in FreeIPA case we had a chapter in Fedora but then RHEL documentation writers decided to only work in a single place and instead of duplicating effort we direct to RHEL documentation
17:55:24 <ab> there was basically zero community contribution for documentation
17:55:33 <pboyHB> Ok: we should discuss that in 2 weeks and see, what we have
17:55:43 <pboyHB> #topic Open Floor
17:55:53 <pboyHB> Just as an info about our recent cloud coop discussion Fedora Cloud had had a meeting yesterday with no of part. > 0
17:56:07 <pboyHB> And we can feel honored: As Dusty put it: „the server WG has approached us again about possible collaboration/merging. There seems to be more interest this time.“
17:56:23 <michel_slm> more interest from their side? nice
17:57:09 <pboyHB> michel_slm: I supose it is meant the other way around. https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2021-03-30/fedora_cloud_meeting.2021-03-30-16.00.log.html
17:57:53 <pboyHB> Nevertheless, I think it is a positive trend
17:58:09 <michel_slm> yeah!
17:58:10 <pboyHB> #info Ben Cotton compiled a change set listing all changes F33 > F34. Please check
17:58:19 <pboyHB> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/34/ChangeSet
17:58:23 <michel_slm> I thought we're always interested, we just couldn't reach them previously :)
17:58:31 <pboyHB> At a first glance I didn’t detect potential issius for existing Fedora server instances, beside oomd as already discussed.
17:58:39 <pboyHB> What about Installation issue with nextcloud, any progress?
17:59:29 <michel_slm> haven't checked. also relevant for server: btrfs compression, zram, and... huh, Stratis
17:59:31 <ab> 'deprecate nscd' is one of those that might be relevant to the server
17:59:42 <michel_slm> not sure if anyone deploys Fedora Server with stratis+xfs but that's a possibility
17:59:42 <ab> postgresql bump
17:59:51 <ab> bind 9.16
18:00:03 <Eighth_Doctor> O.o
18:00:09 <michel_slm> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1941014
18:00:13 <Eighth_Doctor> I guess I have the timezone wrong for this
18:00:19 <ab> Eighth_Doctor: yes. ;)
18:00:20 <michel_slm> looks like nextcloud is being fixed. it's a leftover unused dependency
18:00:37 <michel_slm> Conan Kudo: daylight saving must die
18:01:03 <pboyHB> Well, time is up. I forgot to ask about a chair next week. Who is willing?
18:01:54 <michel_slm> I can
18:02:29 <pboyHB> #agreed next chair michel_slm
18:02:40 <michel_slm> do we keep agenda items in pagure? if not, should we?
18:02:54 <copperi> Thanks pboyHB
18:03:11 <pboyHB> Currently we don't, but use mailing list. Pagure is a good idea.
18:03:21 <copperi> michel: it has been on wiki at some point
18:03:43 <copperi> but could be better on Pagure
18:03:55 <michel_slm> ah. let me see if I have the right permissions for Pagure, and if I can't get that sorted I can keep using the mailing list for next week
18:04:13 <michel_slm> off to get food and then fix a server issue (ha). thanks pboyHB
18:04:15 <copperi> michel: I'll add you
18:04:21 <pboyHB> copperi: +1
18:04:22 <michel_slm> copperi: thanks!
18:04:40 <pboyHB> #endmeeting