17:06:29 <bcotton> #startmeeting Council (2021-04-14)
17:06:29 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Apr 15 17:06:29 2021 UTC.
17:06:29 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:06:29 <zodbot> The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:06:29 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:06:29 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2021-04-14)'
17:06:41 <bcotton> #meetingname council
17:06:41 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
17:06:46 <bcotton> #chair bookwar dcantrell jwf riecatnor spot mattdm bcotton asamalik sumantrom marianab bt0
17:06:46 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton bookwar dcantrell jwf riecatnor spot mattdm bcotton asamalik sumantrom bt0 marianab
17:06:52 <bcotton> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
17:06:55 <riecatnor> .hello riecatnor
17:06:56 <zodbot> riecatnor: riecatnor 'Marie Nordin' <mnordin@redhat.com>
17:06:59 <dcantrell> .hello2
17:07:00 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
17:07:01 <spot> .hello spot
17:07:04 <zodbot> spot: spot 'Tom Callaway' <spotrh@gmail.com>
17:07:05 <sumantro> .hello sumantro
17:07:06 <mattdm> hello all!
17:07:06 <zodbot> sumantro: sumantro 'Sumantro Mukherjee' <sumantro@outlook.com>
17:07:07 <jwf> .hello jflory7
17:07:09 <bcotton> oops, i shouldn't have chaired adam. oh well
17:07:09 <zodbot> jwf: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' <foss@jwf.io>
17:07:10 <spot> (sorry i am late, i managed to break lua, because, well...)
17:07:21 <marianab[m]> .hello marianab
17:07:21 <zodbot> marianab[m]: marianab 'None' <marianaballa848@gmail.com>
17:07:38 <jwf> spot: No worries, zodbot was taking a nap
17:07:38 <jwf> nirik woke it up
17:07:40 <jwf> nirik++
17:07:40 <zodbot> jwf: Karma for kevin changed to 37 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:07:49 <bt0> .hello bt0dotninja
17:07:50 <zodbot> bt0: bt0dotninja 'Alberto Rodriguez Sanchez' <hotgalan@gmail.com>
17:08:00 <Eighth_Doctor> .hello ngompa
17:08:01 <zodbot> Eighth_Doctor: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
17:08:08 <Southern_Gentlem> .hello jbwillia
17:08:09 <zodbot> Southern_Gentlem: jbwillia 'Ben Williams' <vaioof@gmail.com>
17:08:19 <bcotton> #info Welcome to bt0, our newest member (new Mindshare rep)
17:08:26 <jwf> bt0++
17:08:33 <jwf> 🥳🥳
17:08:35 <bcotton> okay, let's part this starty
17:08:50 <bcotton> #topic Today's agenda
17:08:55 <bcotton> #info New Code of Conduct
17:09:05 <bcotton> #info Proposal: contributor-announce mailing list
17:09:10 <bcotton> #info Your topics here!
17:09:19 <bcotton> #topic New Code of Conduct
17:09:24 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/145#comment-726938
17:09:29 <bcotton> #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/policy-proposal-new-code-of-conduct/28822
17:09:58 <mattdm> Thanks riecatnor for all your work on this!
17:10:01 <bcotton> So we're still in the community comment period for this. So far the feedback seems generally positive. Just a few wording tweaks primarily
17:10:13 <jwf> yes
17:10:19 <mattdm> Yeah, honestly... I was prepared for DRAMA. So far, no DRAMA.
17:10:23 <jwf> bex++ riecatnor++
17:10:23 <zodbot> jwf: Karma for bex changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:10:26 <mattdm> Not even lower-case drama.
17:10:27 <riecatnor> yw :)
17:10:38 <bcotton> not even on Twitter!
17:10:51 <mattdm> well that doesn't sound right
17:11:10 <jwf> After a disappointing start to this week, it was very nice to see the initial feedback and response to the new CoC draft
17:11:22 <mattdm> yes, exactly
17:12:02 <jwf> Are we discussing or reviewing anything in specific now? I like a lot of the feedback raised so far, but I don't have a lot of commentary yet
17:12:24 <riecatnor> I was thinking to round up all the feedback and post a new draft at the end of the commentary period
17:12:32 <bcotton> nothing specific, it just seemed like a good opportunity to discuss the current state, since we'll by voting by the time we get to the next meeting
17:13:03 <riecatnor> I can take that as an action item.
17:13:10 <mattdm> riecatnor, what process do you want to take here? Some of the suggestions seem pretty simple to implement (like using a descriptive phrase instead of the term "sealioning")
17:13:27 <mattdm> should we make changes based on feedback and present another draft?
17:13:39 <jwf> riecatnor: that sounds good to me, also detailing the changes you are still considering or will make
17:13:49 <bcotton> #action riecatnor to post an updated draft at the end of the community comment period
17:13:54 <jwf> also I assume we are talking about Clarifying Notes & Statements, not CoC text approved by lawyers?
17:14:14 <riecatnor> We can make small adjustments to the code still
17:14:29 <riecatnor> replacing the word sealion with a description of that behavior for example, will not need to be reviewed
17:14:51 <jwf> excellent
17:14:56 <bt0> cool
17:15:02 <mattdm> Not by legal, right, but I want to make sure _we_ know what final version we're voting on
17:15:06 <jwf> Also about the comments about children and underage, would like to re-emphasize this point too: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/policy-proposal-new-code-of-conduct/28822/38?u=jflory7
17:15:28 <riecatnor> What day is the commentary period up?
17:15:39 <mattdm> I think we shouldn't burden the code of conduct with things that are practical restrictions
17:16:19 <mattdm> So I don't think we really need to mention that while discrimimation based on age is against the code of conduct, we have to _restrict_ based on age in some cases.
17:16:40 <mattdm> Does anyone have a strong opinion either way?
17:16:58 <riecatnor> mattdm, you are saying we should add this into the notes instead?
17:17:11 <mattdm> riecatnor: yes that's probably a good solution
17:17:20 <jwf> Yes, that is true. I just would like to be explicit about in-person events being inclusive of children, even if a child cannot legally participate in Fedora. Or at least, just some way that we can be clear about that. We have a lot of parents in Fedora.
17:17:31 <bcotton> riecatnor: the comment period ends on the 27th
17:17:33 <jwf> (legally participate online I mean)
17:17:57 <bcotton> jwf[m]: is there something in the text that you think makes it not inclusive of children?
17:18:23 <jwf> I was following some of the discussion in the thread
17:18:33 <jwf> I didn't come to my mind until the discussion in the thread
17:18:39 <bcotton> okay, that's what i thought. i just wanted to make sure
17:18:45 <jwf> 👍️
17:19:10 <riecatnor> I feel the hottest topic from the commentary is the inclusion of "political orientation"
17:19:19 <riecatnor> my inclination is this does not need to be included in the code/
17:19:22 <mattdm> Does anyone have any thoughts on the suggestion of adding political orien... yeah what marie said
17:19:55 <mattdm> I do not think it needs to be added, because I think bashing someone based on politics is clearly not okay anyway
17:20:21 <Eighth_Doctor> if anything this past year has taught us, that is not obvious to people
17:20:24 <mattdm> Like, if someone says "Matthew, you're an idiot for wasting your vote on the Pirate Party of Massachusetts", that would already be not okay
17:20:46 <mattdm> On the other hand, I also do not see harm in putting it in
17:21:13 <spot> I do not want to create even the perception of a loophole though, "you can't kick me out because I vote LizardAlien!"
17:21:23 <mattdm> Like, if I say "As a member of the Pirate Party, it is my political belief that you are a poopyhead because you use a website that isn't 100% FOSS"...
17:21:31 <riecatnor> I can see it being an issue if a political orientation comes with some hateful ideology....
17:21:44 <mattdm> that wouldn't be protected just because you claim that your insult is aligned with some political party.
17:22:28 <bcotton> i'm with spot. i see it being abused more than beneficial. i don't want people using "i was just discussing my political beliefs" as cover for being abusive or harassment
17:22:53 <Eighth_Doctor> hmm, fair point
17:23:00 <bcotton> i don't think having a discussion about different political beliefs is an issue if done in line with the CoC and in the appropriate context
17:23:30 <bt0> maybe we can add it as example of unacceptable behavior
17:23:34 <mattdm> I think that's possible too. However, it's worth noting that the example list of different axis of diversity is a "we welcome regardless" statement, _not_ part of the standards of behavior
17:23:39 <riecatnor> based on the climate we are living in, this might have to be something we run by our legal support as well.
17:23:42 <jwf> <funnelfiasco[m] "i don't think having a discussio"> it is only a difficult line to walk
17:24:08 <jwf> Honestly this is one where I would want a lawyer to take a look… the political ideology one is dicey.
17:24:08 <mattdm> yeah I think this is something that _would_ need to go through legal.
17:24:13 <mattdm> yep
17:24:25 <riecatnor> I have a meeting with legal support before the end of the commentary period
17:24:37 <bcotton> i don't see that adding it solves more problems than it creates. imo, the "any other dimension of diversity" would cover it
17:24:57 <spot> agreed.
17:24:59 <mattdm> Since it was brought up by a community member, I want to make sure we have a serious discussion about it and not just dismiss out of hand.
17:25:15 <mattdm> It sounds to me like most of us think that leaving it out is best
17:25:24 <bcotton> i don't plan on asking for handedness being explicitly included, even though we left-handed people have faced discrimination
17:25:26 <spot> That's fair, but I don't think it gains us anything and it potentially causes a lot of trouble.
17:26:13 <bcotton> yeah, i don't see anyone strongly in favor of it. i think we're averaging slightly to the "no" side of ambivalent
17:26:31 <riecatnor> I will bring a summary of this to the meeting with legal support to get their input.. it could be "that is not advised"
17:26:41 <riecatnor> or, "that is advised" ?
17:26:47 <riecatnor> I will let them know our inclination
17:26:47 <spot> fwiw, i am not ambivalent, i am opposed. :D
17:26:48 <mattdm> that sounds like a good step. thanks riecatnor
17:28:16 <mattdm> anything else on this?
17:28:20 <bcotton> any other points we want to discuss on this topi... that
17:28:38 <riecatnor> I'm good, I know what needs to be done :)
17:28:52 <bcotton> #topic Proposal: contributor-announce mailing list
17:28:57 <bcotton> #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/proposal-contributor-announce-mailing-list/28902
17:29:02 <mattdm> Okay, this is my suggestion
17:29:16 <bcotton> this one generated more debate than i expected :-)
17:29:36 <mattdm> We've got two main announce lists. A low-traffic, user-focussed "announce" one, and the relatively-high-traffic 'devel-announce"
17:29:45 <riecatnor> email is a highly debatable topic, it seems
17:30:03 <mattdm> Ben and I propose adding a "contributor-announce" and moving some of the things that would normally be sent to one or the other of those to that.
17:30:54 <bcotton> FWIW, this would also address a long-standing Mindshare issue
17:30:56 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/197
17:31:28 <jwf> Oh, that is new context for me
17:31:34 <mattdm> In my experience, devel-announce is too heavy for people who are not actively involved in, well, *devel* of Fedora Linux
17:31:35 <bcotton> the outcome of that ticket as i understand it basically comes down to "we don't really need a process[tm], just a good way to communicate these things"
17:32:12 <mattdm> And I don't want to start sending more things to regular announce, because I think the consequence of that would be primarily "people unsubscribing from announce"
17:32:24 <bcotton> jwf[m]: yeah, i didn't even think about that until after i first posted the proposal. and i guess i forgot to add that context. sorry :-)
17:32:30 <mattdm> possibly along with "yelling at us about sending too much mail that they didn't sign up for, back in 2006"
17:33:13 * jwf cannot remember the last time he received an email that was for announce@ and also CC'd to devel-announce@
17:33:33 <jwf> Err, not CC'd I mean to say
17:33:36 <riecatnor> I see this as useful from a variety of mindshare team perspective. Their is a desire to have codesy folks more in the know and potentially involved in Mindshare side of Fedora things
17:34:14 <jwf> After all the work we have been doing over the last year, and given the general pattern of the Mindshare teams to work in places like Discourse and Telegram, I am just feeling very "meh" about yet another list, and one that unless you know about it, you will miss it
17:34:17 <riecatnor> And that was expressed at the D&I meetup as well
17:34:19 <jwf> Like, isn't this what the CommBlog is for?
17:34:30 <jwf> Could we have CommBlog posts go to this new mailing list and save someone a lot of manual work?
17:34:42 <bcotton> commblog is much higher traffic, imo
17:34:56 <mattdm> We could possibly do it for commblog posts with an "announcement" tag?
17:35:15 <jwf> mattdm: That is a compromise I could get behind
17:35:19 <bcotton> we couuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuld
17:35:53 <mattdm> My personal opinion is that while email is falling apart as a communications exchange mechanism (bad for conversation, terrible for dialog), it is still the best "push" mechanism we have
17:35:55 <jwf> I am also thinking back to the work I did in 2015-2017 doing the mailing list hustle, and it just… gets old when you are the same person sharing across multiple lists
17:36:03 <jwf> We are human, we make mistakes, we forget things
17:36:06 <bcotton> but that means running infrastructure somewhere to listen to the rss feed and turn it to email?
17:36:31 <jwf> I guess we either choose RSS + mailing list infra, or `#action bcotton` infra? :P
17:36:34 <mattdm> bcotton doesn't it have built-in email features?
17:37:21 <mattdm> I thought you told me it did :)
17:37:25 <bcotton> sort of
17:37:31 <bcotton> you can certainly subscribe via email
17:37:46 <bcotton> but i don't know that you can subscribe to only particular categories/tags
17:37:48 <jwf> We could ping stickster or another Fedora Magazine pro for advice
17:39:29 <mattdm> crickets :)
17:39:43 <mattdm> so... continue discussion?
17:39:46 <bcotton> yeah, i think email subscription is sitewide
17:39:51 <Eighth_Doctor> it is
17:39:58 <Eighth_Doctor> and very exhausting to get
17:40:14 <Eighth_Doctor> I had to switch to digest mode for it
17:40:20 <Eighth_Doctor> it's too much unrelated, unsortable things
17:40:58 <jwf> I would be shocked if there were not a WordPress plugin to do something like this
17:41:16 <jwf> Even though we like to be First, we are definitely not First for this dilemma
17:41:27 <bcotton> there are also cases where the reader might need to be pointed to somewhere else (e.g. another mailing list, a discusison thread), so the commblog makes an unnecessary stopping point. in those cases, it's easier for me to add the non-commblog community-announce discussions to my weekly Friday's Fedora Facts
17:42:17 <bcotton> if we really want to do it this way, i won't say "no", but it feels like more machinery than is necessary
17:43:05 <mattdm> I am not locked to this idea.
17:44:03 <jwf> Maybe it could use more discussion or feedback. I am also concerned about us segmenting our message too much. It is like playing the game Telephone, the message from the start ends up being different from the end
17:44:06 <mattdm> let's discuss further in the thread.
17:44:16 <jwf> It works fine if every communication to every place is the exact same, but I have not usually seen it work this way in practice
17:44:19 <jwf> OK. Works for me
17:44:46 <bcotton> #topic Next meeting
17:44:51 <bcotton> #info The next regular business meeting is Thursday 28 April
17:44:59 <bcotton> no
17:45:01 <bcotton> #undo
17:45:04 <bcotton> #info The next regular business meeting is Thursday 29 April
17:45:14 <bcotton> #topic Do we have anything to announce?
17:45:18 <bcotton> #info This is a regular check to make sure we're communicating to the contributor (via CommBlog) and user (via Magazine) communities
17:45:23 <bcotton> #info Previously announced
17:45:28 <bcotton> #info The Council is considering an update of the default content license
17:45:33 <bcotton> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/policy-proposal-update-default-content-license-to-cc-by-sa-4-0/
17:45:40 <bcotton> #info Voting is now open! https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/355
17:45:45 <bcotton> #info The Council is considering a new Code of Conduct
17:45:49 <bcotton> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/policy-proposal-new-code-of-conduct
17:45:58 <bcotton> anything new that we haven't announced?
17:46:03 <mattdm> welcome bt0!
17:46:11 <bt0> thanks :)
17:46:45 <mattdm> glad to have you on board. if you have any questions about anything let me know!
17:47:04 <bt0> sure
17:47:14 <bcotton> #topic Open floor
17:47:26 <jwf> Upgrading to CC BY SA 4.0 gives me more warm fuzzies than maybe it should lol
17:47:28 <jwf> bt0++
17:47:41 <bt0> lol
17:47:44 <riecatnor> welcome bt0 !!
17:48:10 <riecatnor> register for the upcoming release party!
17:48:21 <riecatnor> #link https://hopin.com/events/fedora-linux-34-release-party
17:48:34 <bcotton> a reminder if you haven't yet indicated your availability for the upcoming face-to-face, please do that (see council-private thread)
17:49:26 <bt0> thanks everyone for the warm welcome
17:49:48 <bt0> I will look it bcotton :)
17:49:59 <riecatnor> There is an outreachy social this saturday
17:50:12 <riecatnor> siddharthvipul, do you have an invite for that?
17:51:04 <riecatnor> Fedora Outreachy social hour this Saturday, that is on 17th April 2021 at 13:30hrs UTC
17:51:14 <riecatnor> This meeting would take place on https://app.element.io/#/room/#fedora-social-hour:matrix.org
17:52:08 <bcotton> open to everyone?
17:52:18 <riecatnor> yea!
17:52:43 * bcotton adds it to Friday's Fedora Facts
17:52:57 <bcotton> and twitter dot com
17:53:02 <mattdm> excellent
17:53:07 <riecatnor> The outreachy socials are quite popular when we've done them :)
17:53:19 <jwf> I'm hoping to make it :)
17:53:20 <riecatnor> I plan to attend
17:54:34 <bcotton> anything else for today's meeting?
17:54:39 <mattdm> that's not TOO early for me :)
17:54:50 <jwf> nothing from me
17:54:59 <jwf> keep being awesome
17:56:10 <riecatnor> have a great week :)
17:56:55 <bcotton> okay, thanks everyone!
17:56:57 <bcotton> #endmeeting