18:00:08 <bcotton_> #startmeeting Council (2021-11-11)
18:00:08 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Nov 11 18:00:08 2021 UTC.
18:00:08 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:00:08 <zodbot> The chair is bcotton_. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
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18:00:08 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2021-11-11)'
18:00:13 <bcotton_> #meetingname council
18:00:13 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
18:00:19 <bcotton_> #chair bookwar dcantrell siddharthvipul1 riecatnor spot mattdm bcotton sumantrom marianab bt0 ramyaparimi t0xic0der
18:00:19 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton bcotton_ bookwar bt0 dcantrell marianab mattdm ramyaparimi riecatnor siddharthvipul1 spot sumantrom t0xic0der
18:00:26 <dcantrell> .hello2
18:00:27 <bcotton_> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
18:00:27 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
18:00:35 <riecatnor[m]> .hello riecatnor
18:00:36 <zodbot> riecatnor[m]: riecatnor 'Marie Nordin' <mnordin@redhat.com>
18:01:19 <bcotton_> hello dcantrell and riecatnor[m]
18:01:25 <dcantrell> greetings
18:01:44 <riecatnor[m]> hullooo
18:01:47 <OnuralpSezer[m]> .hello thunderbirdtr
18:01:50 <riecatnor[m]> happy day before release party!
18:01:50 <zodbot> OnuralpSezer[m]: thunderbirdtr 'Onuralp SEZER' <thunderbirdtr@gmail.com>
18:02:44 <mattdm> .hello2
18:02:45 <zodbot> mattdm: mattdm 'Matthew Miller' <mattdm@mattdm.org>
18:03:09 <mattdm> (actually switching computers AFK for 45 seconds then back)
18:03:45 <AleksandraFedoro> .hello2
18:03:46 <zodbot> AleksandraFedoro: Sorry, but user 'AleksandraFedoro' does not exist
18:04:02 <AleksandraFedoro> .hello bookwar
18:04:03 <zodbot> AleksandraFedoro: bookwar 'Aleksandra Fedorova' <alpha@bookwar.info>
18:04:21 <mattdm> ok back :)
18:04:40 <bcotton_> alrighty, let's do this!
18:04:42 <bcotton_> #topic Today's agenda
18:04:43 <bcotton_> #info Planning to plan for an updated strategic plan
18:04:45 <bcotton_> #info Council mentorship
18:04:46 <bcotton_> #info Open ticket review
18:04:48 <bcotton_> #info Your topics here!
18:04:50 <bcotton_> #topic Planning to plan for an updated strategic plan
18:05:14 <bcotton_> mattdm: i'll let you start
18:05:31 <AleksandraFedoro> you broke my parser with this topic name
18:05:38 <mattdm> lol sorry
18:05:52 <mattdm> Here's the short of it...
18:06:01 <mattdm> Fedora.next was intended to be a five-year plan.
18:06:13 <mattdm> That would have been... through 2019, roughly.
18:06:20 <mattdm> But 2020 was, like, A THING
18:06:32 <mattdm> So, we didn't really do a big rethink
18:06:46 <mattdm> We have a basic guiding strategy, mission and vision and all of that...
18:07:10 <mattdm> but not a 3-5 year "what we want and how we're gonna get there"
18:07:36 <mattdm> In normal times, we would be having our annual Fedora Council face-to-face get-together
18:07:48 <mattdm> We've done some virtual f2f meetings, and those have been fine...
18:08:04 <mattdm> but the idea of trying to work on this kind of plan in that format exhausts me
18:08:18 <mattdm> I mean, the idea alone exhausts me.
18:08:42 <mattdm> I don't think we're going to get to do a f2f in the next, say, six months.
18:08:47 <mattdm> So we need to figure out another way.
18:09:06 <mattdm> (I don't know if that was "short". Lots of lines of text. But short lines of text!)
18:09:53 <bcotton_> what's the consequences of waiting until we _can_ have a face-to-face?
18:10:05 <AleksandraFedoro> which part is bad - having 2-days virtual f2f? or having a virtual meeting at all?
18:10:28 <AleksandraFedoro> if it is an hour per week for two months - would it be better?
18:10:44 <riecatnor[m]> I think its hard to say bcotton bc we don't know when we will be able to with certainty
18:10:45 <mattdm> I don't feel like virtual is conducive to the kind of big, open, collaborative work sessions I'd like to do
18:11:15 <mattdm> bcotton_: I think... best case we drift, but worst case, we squander momentum that we've got going
18:11:39 <mattdm> Plus, there are some things I'd like to convince a) Red Hat and b) the general community that we need to do and focus on
18:12:07 <mattdm> And that argument is better with "because here is how it fits into our plan", rather than "I think it'd be good, y'know?"
18:12:17 <AleksandraFedoro> Technically we can organize in person meeting. If you US guys come to EU, because my american visa is not going to happen soon.
18:12:32 <riecatnor[m]> we can't :/
18:12:49 <AleksandraFedoro> ok, so let's scratch that :)
18:12:52 <riecatnor[m]> well, we could but it would take a lot of work and permissions to make it happen. and I am not sure every person could make it
18:13:44 <dcantrell> what is the rule on travel right now?  because the travlers I see on social media are back at it with the usual tradeshow and event pics
18:13:47 <mattdm> Yeah not everyone is US based, so there may be broader issues
18:14:37 <mattdm> I believe the current RH policy is "small team meetings are allowed with approval"
18:14:40 <riecatnor[m]> Almost all travel needs to get approval at this point. Inside your own country i sa bit easier
18:14:45 <mattdm> And I think we could get approval for this.
18:15:25 <bcotton_> But not all of us are at Red Hat, so that may add complications
18:15:55 <dcantrell> we could meet in international waters and not worry about visas and travel restrictions  :)
18:16:13 <riecatnor[m]> I have something I can share, I was just digging it up
18:17:03 <riecatnor[m]> I haven't had a great chance to review it, adding permissions now
18:17:14 <mattdm> dcantrell I hear you have a boat
18:17:36 <AleksandraFedoro> ok, so let's consider other options. Forum discussions seem to be more active than usual lately. We have also hackmd and virtual meetings. Would it be possible to make a working combo out of those tools?
18:18:04 <dcantrell> mattdm: yes, M/Y Beefy Miracle
18:18:21 <mattdm> Aleksandra Fedorova: Yeah, I think we should try
18:18:38 <riecatnor[m]> I just sent it to council-private as I haven't vetted it well yet
18:18:56 <mattdm> I think specifically:
18:19:35 <mattdm> 1.  in the next two months or so, we should try to have active community discussions about Fedora Vision 2025 (or whatever) on Fedora Discussion
18:20:13 <mattdm> 2. In january/february, let's have some of the most interested of us make that into a
18:20:13 <mattdm> * document
18:20:13 <mattdm> * and presentation
18:20:45 <mattdm> 3. Bring that back and present it somehow to the wider Fedora community
18:20:51 <mattdm> 4. Refine and present for Flock/Nest 2022
18:21:25 <riecatnor[m]> I think that sounds doable
18:21:32 <dcantrell> I agree, though I think part 1 is going to be difficult
18:21:41 <AleksandraFedoro> for 2. may be we can ask devconf folks to host our session? The DevConf is familiar to many and it would be easier to get the audience there
18:21:44 <dcantrell> but most things are difficult, this is open source after all
18:21:49 <AleksandraFedoro> s/2/3/
18:22:16 <mattdm> I will put myself on the hook for starting and keeping those conversations going on Discussion. At least one new topic a week...
18:22:25 <dcantrell> I have a question regarding DevConf and Flock, but not related to this discussion
18:22:34 <mattdm> ... and also, to a point that Ben made to me a little bit back, not, like five new topics a day. :)
18:22:46 <bcotton_> I think DevConf is too soon, particularly since the schedule is being set in the next week or two
18:22:50 <dcantrell> mattdm: a summary page of some sort where people can keep up with what's going in to the master plan and maybe comment on it would be useful
18:23:06 <mattdm> The thing I'd like from all of y'all is a commitment to help with those discussions.
18:23:12 <bcotton_> late february seems more realistic. but i like the general shape of matthew's plan
18:23:22 <AleksandraFedoro> Yes, maintaining some summary page would be a big help
18:23:31 <dcantrell> mattdm: yeah, count me in
18:23:40 <riecatnor[m]> I am there!
18:23:42 <mattdm> dcantrell: Yes, but probably somewhere in the middle. I guess hackmd would be a reasonable tool for that
18:24:10 <AleksandraFedoro> I am starting to like the discussion board, I like forums more than mailing lists it seems, so count me in.
18:24:21 <dcantrell> mattdm: I don't care about the tool, so long as (a) I don't have to create a new account somewhere else and (b) it doesn't crash the browser
18:24:28 <mattdm> Or we could make a "wiki" document on Discussion. I'm not strongly attached to anything except _not mediawiki please_.
18:24:43 <dcantrell> if you ask me to set it up, you're going to get a git repo and comments will be pull requests
18:24:44 <riecatnor[m]> I think discussion makes the most sense
18:24:49 <riecatnor[m]> oh, and hackmd :)
18:25:21 <mattdm> dcantrell that would be fine with me too.
18:25:40 <mattdm> in seriousness, we will probably eventually move to that, because docs.fedoraproject.org is an eventual target
18:25:46 <dcantrell> correct
18:26:03 <dcantrell> but in an effort to make it widely accessible, a wiki that records changes of some sort is probably preferable
18:26:09 <bcotton_> so do we have what we need for this conversation for now?
18:26:15 <dcantrell> just, no new accounts!
18:26:29 <mattdm> bcotton_: Yes, i think so. Thanks for watching the clock
18:27:11 <bcotton_> #agreed We'll have discussions on Discussion over the next two months, and interested parties will form a doc and presentation in late February to present at Flock/Nest 2022
18:27:14 <mattdm> #action mattdm start Fedora Discussion conversation about New Plan
18:27:23 <bcotton_> #topic Council mentorship
18:27:29 <mattdm> this will happen after the release party
18:27:29 <bcotton_> oh look, another mattdm topic
18:27:51 <mattdm> Yeah I'm on a roll. :)
18:28:21 <mattdm> So, previously, we talked about "council buddies", and helping objective leads and new council members get onboarded
18:28:29 <mattdm> (onboarded? is that a word? I don't like it.)
18:29:00 <mattdm> In practice -- and including me in the guilty here -- this seems like it's mostly fallen to "riecatnor is great at that!"
18:29:02 <dcantrell> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/onboarding
18:29:21 <mattdm> thanks david I still hate it.
18:29:42 <mattdm> This isn't fair to marie. Not because she is not great at it, but because it takes a lot of time and energy
18:30:06 <mattdm> So this topic is party a plea for help from the rest of us.
18:30:16 <mattdm> Which includes me, but also OH GOD SO BUSY
18:30:49 <AleksandraFedoro> how this process works currently? I don't see anything significant in the #fedora-council chat
18:31:08 <riecatnor[m]> I think it just came to me to mentor/project manage/help guide the objectives
18:31:16 <riecatnor[m]> and, I mentor in other spaces and places as well
18:31:28 <riecatnor[m]> so its become a lot
18:31:59 <mattdm> justin had volunteered to help the web and apps team folks, but then a) was done with his council stint and b) turns out to have an actual lot of time commitment for his actual day job
18:32:13 <VipulSiddharth[m> Can I request someone to mentor me with council stuff? :P honestly, last few months have been tough in real life and I haven't been doing my council duties properly.. now things are looking better and I would definitely like to learn something.
18:32:32 <VipulSiddharth[m> Also sleepy, so sorry if I am not coming off clearly :)
18:32:37 <riecatnor[m]> Justin does come to the w&a revamp when he can! and he's been doing a lot with docs
18:32:42 <riecatnor[m]> revamp meeting*
18:33:04 <mattdm> yeah wasn't meaning to dunk on justin. justin is awesome and as helpful as he can be.
18:33:29 <riecatnor[m]> absolutely understood :)
18:34:05 <bcotton_> i'm in favor of not throwing everything at marie. but i think it would help to have more specifics about what council onboarding looks like in practice. because i think part of the answer is to try to reduce the amount of onboarding needed in the first place
18:34:27 <dcantrell> I agree with that.  I don't understand everything involved in onboarding
18:34:37 <riecatnor[m]> I think its truly a matter of time commitment, like setting a monthly meeting with a new council member and/or willingness to get into a project or initiative. its not just saying "text me when you have questions"
18:34:37 <AleksandraFedoro> riecatnor: can you mentor us how do you actually mentor others :)
18:34:47 <dcantrell> perhaps a self-service type guide could be created as part of this exercise and then new council members could ask questions where specific help is required
18:34:52 <mattdm> Ah, bcotton_ with the excellent "let's work on the _process_" point #programmanager
18:35:24 <riecatnor[m]> I think we are also talking about two or three different things- onboarding, mentoring, project management
18:35:39 <dcantrell> yeah, this sounds like multiple things
18:35:58 <mattdm> Okay someone help me and split out the things :)
18:36:53 <riecatnor[m]> I think we need to 1. improve council member onboarding, because it is currently unclear. I agree with making the process light as Ben mentioned
18:37:36 <riecatnor[m]> 2. understand a bit more about what goes into mentoring so people can feel more confident about doing that. Matthew I know you had machinations for a Fedora Mentors program?
18:38:49 <riecatnor[m]> 3. I dont know. this takes a lot of energy and time. Program management team?
18:39:02 <mattdm> ok let's talk about these in order real quick :)
18:39:06 <mattdm> part of our previous answer to #1 was "assign a council buddy", but we never _really_ formalized that or defined what it means
18:39:29 <dcantrell> onboarding should basically be a checklist, I think
18:39:59 <bcotton_> we have a checklist when people join the council. so the question is "what's missing?" is it that people don't know what they're supposed to do or...?
18:40:04 <dcantrell> correct lists, update various documents/pages, give you a copy of the launch codes, etc
18:40:08 <riecatnor[m]> I think for onboarding, assigning a buddy for those "text me when you have questions" is appropriate.
18:40:16 <dcantrell> +1
18:40:26 <bt0> +1
18:40:27 <dcantrell> yes, bcotton_ was mine when I first joined the council
18:40:32 <dcantrell> and I still ask him things
18:40:36 <dcantrell> I've never fully onboarded
18:40:53 <mattdm> does someone want to take an action item to write up a short doc for "council buddy" for https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/council/policies/ ?
18:41:37 <mattdm> okay, yeah, so that's useful. dcantrell _why not_ and _what's missing_?
18:41:57 <mattdm> (I mean "useful" legitimately, not a sarcastic comment)
18:42:23 <dcantrell> I was actually just trying to make a joke about constantly giving questions to bcotton_
18:42:28 <dcantrell> I consider myself onboarded
18:42:47 <dcantrell> the steps to go through initially were not that complicated and I honestly don't remember what they were because...bcotton_ did them
18:42:47 <mattdm> oh, okay. That's ironically less useful :)
18:43:09 <dcantrell> mattdm: I'll be here all day, be sure to tip the bartender
18:43:45 <bcotton_> okay, i'll take the action, but i won't put it under policies. is that a fair compromise?
18:43:51 <mattdm> So, I guess my remaining question on #1 is: is that level of "council buddy" _generally sufficient_, or are there cases when we should assign a more formal mentor?
18:44:07 <mattdm> bcotton_: maybe. where will you put it?
18:44:35 <bcotton_> mattdm: i'll figure it out when i get there? i'm thinking more a "welcome to Council, here's where the proverbial bathrooms are doc"
18:44:53 <dcantrell> that makes sense
18:44:58 <bcotton_> because we're fundamentally not a complicated body. if a doc can't address 90% of what's needed, then something's wrong
18:45:29 <bcotton_> so a lot of it can be solved with explicit expectations, etc. we've tended to be pretty implicit with stuff and i think it makes it seem scarier than it actually is
18:45:43 <mattdm> okay, works for me.
18:46:01 <mattdm> anyone have opinions on my question? :)
18:46:08 <dcantrell> I propose a zodbot extension called #askindiana that will signal both mattdm and bcotton_ when all other resources have been exhausted
18:46:27 <mattdm> and brian proffit and terry bowling and also neal gompa
18:46:29 <bcotton_> #action bcotton to draft a "Welcome to Council" doc to help new members get settled
18:46:33 <mattdm> probably more.
18:46:41 <bt0> I loved the idea
18:46:56 <AleksandraFedoro> to be honest I thought that if I have a question, i just go to #fedora-council and ask it
18:47:10 <dcantrell> that should also work
18:47:15 <AleksandraFedoro> I didn't feel like there is a need for a proxy onboarding buddy
18:47:35 <mattdm> sorry sidetrack. to answer my own question, I think we should: 1. Put in the document "ask for a mentor if you think that'd be helpful" and 2. proactively assign more active mentors to objective leads unless they've done it before.
18:47:46 <spot> mattdm: bkp is not in indiana anymore, we extricated him in an elaborate SEAL team mission
18:48:23 <riecatnor[m]> Neal isn't there either
18:48:29 <mattdm> NEITHER AM I
18:49:04 <riecatnor[m]> lol
18:49:15 <mattdm> Anyway, also to put my own #actions where my talk is here, Vipul Siddharth, let's do it. Send me a meeting invite for half an hour either weekly or every-other-week? Tuesday is ideal, Friday is out, weekends are iffy, all else is possible. :)
18:50:05 <bcotton_> so does this also address point #2 for now?
18:50:31 <mattdm> Are we in general agreement with my answer to my own question?
18:51:00 <VipulSiddharth[m> mattdm @mattdm:fedora.im: thank you ^-^
18:51:25 * bcotton_ nods
18:51:30 <bt0> yes
18:51:52 <riecatnor[m]> I think so? I am not sure point 2 is going to work with out something more formal but I like it
18:52:05 <mattdm> Beyond that, for point #2... Jona had an idea for a Mentor Summit, back in the before times. I'd like to make that real, but like the other thing, I don't know if it's as useful virtually. The idea was to get people who are interested in mentoring and mentorship as a practice together in one place with actual training as well as a barcamp conference and discussions and social events.
18:52:50 <bcotton_> Could be something we tack on before/after Flock in the After Times™
18:52:53 <mattdm> I don't know how to actually build a program. But... I do know the people who work on Red Hat's internal mentor program and maybe the could help. I intended to invite them to said imaginary summit.
18:53:13 <mattdm> So my rough idea is that "develop a program" would be a _goal_ of that summit.
18:53:28 <mattdm> bcotton_: +1
18:54:13 <mattdm> And I think maybe something to talk about in a couple of months as we get a better of idea of when those After Times might actually be. Might need to go back to the drawing board with virtual :-/
18:54:35 <bcotton_> so in the interests of time,i think we need to move on to a couple other quick things
18:55:08 <mattdm> yeah I don't know what more to say about point #3 anyway. :)
18:55:21 <bcotton_> we don't have time to look at _all_ of the open tickets, but there's one in particular that's pressing
18:55:25 <bcotton_> #topic Election questions
18:55:28 <bcotton_> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/383
18:55:44 <bcotton_> #info We need to have new questions settled by Wednesday or I'm using the old ones
18:56:17 <mattdm> oh and yeah I promised to add one.
18:57:20 <riecatnor[m]> These questions seem pretty good to me
18:58:22 <mattdm> i will add mine (really a replacement for the last one) as soon as this meeting closes
18:58:33 <bt0> cool
18:58:35 <bcotton_> #action mattdm to add the proposed question he promised
18:58:38 <bcotton_> #topic Next meeting
18:58:40 <bcotton_> So!
18:58:58 <mattdm> so?
18:59:10 <bcotton_> Our next scheduled meeting is the Thanksgiving holiday in the US. I'm going to guess there are enough US folks on Council who don't want to spend the holiday having a meeting?
18:59:21 <riecatnor[m]> +1
18:59:25 <dcantrell> I can assure you I will not attend that meeting
18:59:51 <bcotton_> #agreed The 25 November Council meeting is cancelled due to the Thanksgiving holiday in the US
19:00:14 <AleksandraFedoro> have a nice holiday :)
19:00:32 <bcotton_> the next one after that would be 9 Dec, which is supposed to be a video meeting, which would make the next regular meeting 23 December. This also seems like there would be a lot of absences
19:01:06 <mattdm> skip video meeting, do year-end ticket cleanup on the 9th
19:01:11 <AleksandraFedoro> we have agreed we put more activity on discussion board, so let's try to do that, maybe :)
19:01:14 <bcotton_> that works for me
19:01:27 <mattdm> and be more active on the discussion forum, and next meeting in january
19:01:35 <bcotton_> objections to skipping the 9 Dec video meeting and doing a year-end ticket cleanup on the 9th?
19:01:41 <dcantrell> nope
19:01:58 <riecatnor[m]> sounds good to me!
19:02:30 <bt0> nop
19:02:35 <bcotton_> #agreed The 9 December video meeting (no guest scheduled) is cancelled. We will do a year-end ticket cleanup meeting that day and resume the normal schedule in January
19:02:39 <mattdm> VERY AGGRESISVE TICKET CLEANUP
19:03:03 <bcotton_> #info The next regular business meeting will be 6 January 2022
19:03:26 <bcotton_> #info The next video meeting will be 13 January 2022 (guests needed!)
19:03:33 <bcotton_> #topic Announcements
19:03:41 <riecatnor[m]> Remember to stop by the release party :) https://hopin.com/events/fedora-linux-35-release-party/registration
19:03:43 <bcotton_> #info The release party is tomorrow and Saturday
19:03:48 <riecatnor[m]> nice
19:04:02 <bcotton_> if anyone has anything you want matthew, marie, or I to mention in the opening or closing sessions, you know where to find us
19:04:53 <bcotton_> and since we're over time, i'll just say "thank you" and bang the gavel
19:04:56 <bcotton_> #endmeeting