14:00:23 <bcotton> #startmeeting Council (2022-04-13)
14:00:23 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Apr 13 14:00:23 2022 UTC.
14:00:23 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:00:23 <zodbot> The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
14:00:23 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:23 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2022-04-13)'
14:00:23 <bcotton> #meetingname council
14:00:23 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
14:00:23 <bcotton> #chair bookwar dcantrell siddharthvipul1 riecatnor spot mattdm bcotton sumantrom marianab bt0 t0xic0der
14:00:23 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton bookwar dcantrell siddharthvipul1 riecatnor spot mattdm bcotton sumantrom bt0 marianab t0xic0der
14:00:31 <bcotton> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
14:00:37 <bcotton> hello, friends!
14:00:40 <riecatnor[m]> .hello riecatnor
14:00:41 <t0xic0der> .hello t0xic0der
14:00:41 <zodbot> riecatnor[m]: riecatnor 'Marie Nordin' <mnordin@redhat.com>
14:00:42 <VipulSiddharth[m> .hello siddharthvipul1
14:00:44 <dcantrell> .hello2
14:00:44 <zodbot> t0xic0der: t0xic0der 'Akashdeep Dhar' <akashdeep.dhar@gmail.com>
14:00:47 <zodbot> VipulSiddharth[m: siddharthvipul1 'Vipul Siddharth' <siddharthvipul1@gmail.com>
14:00:50 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
14:00:52 <VipulSiddharth[m> turns out I can drive at decent speed to make it home on time
14:01:06 <MarianaBalla[m]> .hello marianab
14:01:08 <zodbot> MarianaBalla[m]: marianab 'None' <marianaballa848@gmail.com>
14:01:51 <t0xic0der> VipulSiddharth[m: Please drive carefully ;P
14:04:56 <mattdm> hello!
14:05:14 <bcotton> okay, let's do this
14:05:17 <bcotton> #topic Today's agenda
14:05:17 <bcotton> #info Objective updates
14:05:17 <bcotton> #info Your topics here!
14:05:18 <mattdm> Sorry I'm late. Previous meeting ran right to the hour.
14:05:31 <bcotton> (i have another topic in my back pocket if we run out of time)
14:05:39 <bcotton> #topic Objective updates
14:06:08 <bcotton> Mariana Balla: and sumantro , I'll let you go first, as your Objective is "older"
14:06:19 <bcotton> #topic Community Outreach Revamp Objective update
14:06:55 <bcotton> the floor is yours (please #info and #link liberally for the benefit of the minutes)
14:09:19 <VipulSiddharth[m> I think they might not be around
14:09:31 <riecatnor[m]> Mariana is here
14:09:36 <riecatnor[m]> I am not answering on purpose :)
14:09:42 <VipulSiddharth[m> Mariana Balla: \o
14:09:45 <bcotton> riecatnor++
14:09:47 <zodbot> bcotton: Karma for riecatnor changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:11:10 <MarianaBalla[m]> In order to check where we stand so far with the objective we took outcomes and marked them as “complete” “work in progress” percentage estimate “blocking” “out of scope”
14:11:19 <MarianaBalla[m]> I will paste a list for you
14:11:46 <MarianaBalla[m]> (Work in Progress, 80%) Completion of Role Handbooks for CommOps, Join SIG, Advocate, Ambassador, Ambassador Emeritus. Timeline: February 2021 - June 2021... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/30cc1526c2e3b70a1ba42d6173110a3872d1d22c)
14:12:27 <mattdm> Mariana Balla: can you re-paste that with #info in front of each line?
14:12:39 <riecatnor[m]> i think we could remove the dates too
14:12:40 <mattdm> (possibly one message per entry)
14:13:10 <mattdm> (in fact, definitely only one message per entry. I don't think zodbot can deal with multi-line things separately)
14:13:38 <MarianaBalla[m]> #info Also, a blogpost is ready for the community blog: https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/?p=10891&preview=1&_ppp=30f6d6be3e
14:15:16 <MarianaBalla[m]> #info (Work in Progress, 80%) Completion of Role Handbooks for CommOps, Join SIG, Advocate, Ambassador, Ambassador Emeritus.
14:15:43 <MarianaBalla[m]> #info (Complete) Formalized and documented process for reps to Mindshare.
14:15:53 <MarianaBalla[m]> #info (Complete) Execution and analysis of Community Outreach survey.
14:16:02 <MarianaBalla[m]> #info (Complete) Execution and documentation of Mindshare Team Interviews.
14:16:11 <MarianaBalla[m]> #info (Complete) Branding for CommOps team/subteams.
14:16:18 <MarianaBalla[m]> #info (Out of scope) Draft and execution of Marketing plan.
14:16:30 <MarianaBalla[m]> #info (Blocking on completion of Role Handbooks) Translations of Role Handbooks into 5-8 key languages.
14:16:37 <MarianaBalla[m]> #info (Complete) Community health survey for future use (periodically, every year).
14:16:46 <MarianaBalla[m]> #info (Work in progress, 80%) Update and add to CommOps docs page to make it a complete indexed set of resources for each team under the CommOps umbrella.
14:17:04 <MarianaBalla[m]> #info (Complete) Informal polls to be developed and implemented (by the Revamp team at first and later by other teams) to measure awareness.
14:17:15 <MarianaBalla[m]> Done 🙃
14:17:32 * bcotton disables reactions on mattdm's Matrix client :-)
14:17:42 <mattdm> NOOOOO
14:17:43 <VipulSiddharth[m> woot woot 🎉
14:17:52 <mattdm> I have a question about the "out of scope" one.
14:18:45 <mattdm> Is that because some other group is picking it up, or another reason?
14:20:21 <riecatnor[m]> the marketing plan was to be aimed at Ambassador and outreach groups to accept the changes we have made, and that has kind of happened naturally without a full marketing plan
14:20:39 <riecatnor[m]> tho we did discuss this and take actions in order to make that happen, it never made it into a full plan
14:21:08 <mattdm> Okay, so an internal marketing plan, really.
14:21:12 <riecatnor[m]> yes
14:22:01 <mattdm> I don't think there's any problem here, but I think adjustments like this would be great to bring to the council as they come up.
14:22:13 <mattdm> Not necessarily for approval, but for awareness at least.
14:22:37 <mattdm> And I can imagine some cases where it is a big change from the approved plan where bigger discussion would be useful.
14:23:12 <mattdm> (fin)
14:23:26 <riecatnor[m]> makes sense, I would agree
14:25:33 <bcotton> sounds like this objective is nearly complete. yay! what could the Council or the broader community have done better to support it? (or asked a different way: what unexpected problems did you encounter?)
14:26:38 <riecatnor[m]> a lot of people said they wanted to help and then it was really just Mariana, Sumantro and I who ended up doing things. I am not sure if thats bc we did a bad job at including people or people are just burnt out bc of the pandemic
14:26:50 <riecatnor[m]> maybe a dash of the first, but mostly the second
14:27:18 <bcotton> it also seems pretty typical of how volunteer projects work :-)
14:27:26 <riecatnor[m]> i think any team revamp should know that the bulk of the work is in stakeholder conversations and documentation
14:28:45 <bcotton> that's good advice
14:29:07 <riecatnor[m]> we guessed it would take 18 months, its going to take 24 (or 2 years)
14:29:26 <riecatnor[m]> when you have a small team working, even if consistent, it takes a while to work through everything
14:30:12 <VipulSiddharth[m> I guess working with People and working on a things which is so emotional for a bunch.. and then working based on volunteer level
14:30:12 <VipulSiddharth[m> Kinda expected
14:30:25 <VipulSiddharth[m> happy to see it wrapping up
14:30:44 <VipulSiddharth[m> Anything we can do now to help/wrap up?
14:30:44 <VipulSiddharth[m> even retrospective?
14:31:03 <riecatnor[m]> a cool thing that we noticed is that their is plenty of "ambassador" activities still happening even without the program "up and running"
14:31:15 <riecatnor[m]> people love fedora and spend their own time to further our goals
14:31:34 <VipulSiddharth[m> riecatnor[m]: It would be fun to brainstorm how we catch or improve catching up those efforts
14:31:49 <riecatnor[m]> we have heard some nice stories about people doing that at their work place or university-- kind of unbeknownst to us as a community the efforts these people are making
14:31:58 <riecatnor[m]> yes
14:32:40 <riecatnor[m]> I probably have more reflections- i think that would be a good blog post for the co-leads to work on together
14:32:48 <riecatnor[m]> don't want to take this whole meeting :)
14:32:52 <mattdm> Remy D used to say "heat and light" -- "light" being showing off those cool things that are happening "in the dark" to most people.
14:33:03 <mattdm> +1 to more blog posts
14:33:43 <riecatnor[m]> we have an overview of blogs, videos, links, etc here
14:33:44 <riecatnor[m]> #link https://hackmd.io/uYGN_O7LS5iXACBWVKxuDg?view
14:33:47 <mattdm> (and "heat" being bringing resources, to complete the saying)
14:34:05 <bcotton> in the interests of time, i think we'll stop here and let Web & Apps go
14:34:11 <VipulSiddharth[m> riecatnor[m]: should we migrate to Fedora Docs
14:34:11 <VipulSiddharth[m> do you think that would be helpful
14:34:14 <VipulSiddharth[m> * be helpful?
14:34:28 <riecatnor[m]> > <@siddharthvipul1:fedora.im> should we migrate to Fedora Docs
14:34:29 <riecatnor[m]> > do you think that would be helpful?
14:34:29 <riecatnor[m]> probably to the objective wiki
14:34:36 <bcotton> if you have more questions, comments, etc. bring them to #council:fedoraproject.org or Discussion
14:34:39 <riecatnor[m]> but let's let w&a take the floor :)
14:34:50 <bcotton> #topic Websites & Apps Team revamp Objective update
14:34:55 <bcotton> okay, t0xic0der all yours
14:35:07 <bcotton> (again with the reminder to please make liberal use of #info and #link)
14:35:12 <t0xic0der[m]1> Ben Cotton (he/him): Thanks.
14:35:22 <t0xic0der[m]1> Alright - let's start
14:35:31 <bytehackr> \o
14:35:34 <t0xic0der[m]1> We have three subteams now, that are distinct in function but integrated in purpose. There's the Fedora Websites Revamp Stakeholder Team, Fedora Websites Engineering Team and Fedora W&A Objective Co-leads team.
14:35:35 <t0xic0der[m]1> #info About the adventures of Fedora Websites Revamp Stakeholder Team
14:35:46 <t0xic0der[m]1> The stakeholder team constitutes of folks from the design team and various other subprojects, SIGs and workgroups. They come up with mockups for the offerings websites, review them and improve upon them continually.
14:35:52 <t0xic0der[m]1> #link https://chat.fedoraproject.org/#/room/#fedora_website_revamp:fedora.im
14:36:09 <t0xic0der[m]1> They have been upto sharing these mockups on the Discussion fpo and obtaining suggestions from the wider community. Máirín Duffy has also mentored a couple of Red Hat interns (Namely, Emma and Jess) while doing so.
14:36:19 <t0xic0der[m]1> #info Into to cyber-future with the Fedora Websites Engineering Team
14:36:27 <t0xic0der[m]1> The engineering team looks into the technical side of things - helping with developing and maintaining the websites in the state that they are in for now, assisting with the issue tickets and onboarding/mentoring contributors.
14:36:34 <t0xic0der[m]1> #link https://chat.fedoraproject.org/#/room/#websites:fedoraproject.org
14:37:08 <t0xic0der[m]1> They have been upto ensuring that the tickets get addressed as quickly as possible and the issues related to content, translation, banners etc. are taken care of. We recently mentored two interns under Outreachy which makes @thunderbirdtr, @darknao, @misc and yours truly, "officially awesome". ;P
14:37:15 <t0xic0der[m]1> #info Stepping together as one with the Fedora W&A Objective Co-leads team
14:37:26 <t0xic0der[m]1> The objective co-leads team looks into the cohesion of the aforementioned two teams - introspecting the current state of the teams, ensure contributors feel rewarded and that the objective outcomes are met.
14:37:31 <t0xic0der[m]1> #link https://chat.fedoraproject.org/#/room/#websites-apps-objective:fedora.im
14:37:57 <t0xic0der[m]1> We went through our objective requirements, outputs and outcomes and worked on reshaping and revisiting them as per the teams. We also worked on an inventory of websites and applications and their remits/responsibilities - thanks to @grahamwhiteuk and the awesome looking infographic by riecatnor .
14:38:02 <t0xic0der[m]1> #info What's next for us then?
14:38:07 <NishantMishra[m]> hello
14:38:11 <t0xic0der[m]1> Welp, we plan to do more of what we have been doing until now ;P + High visibility discussions in forums and representations in conferences/e-events + Bagdes/swags to incentivize short-term/long-term participation + Laying down processes for both technical and management aspects of the team + Documenting everything that we do.
14:38:26 <t0xic0der[m]1> We are now focusing more on the "repeatability" of an "estabilished" process. Everything that we document would be subjected to contributors with little-to-no context to see if they produce similar results in the end. If not, we would go back to the drawing board and fill the lacunaes there might be in our processes.
14:38:53 <t0xic0der[m]1> I documented the updates/plans for the council objective as a commblog that Vipul Siddharth  and Ben Cotton (he/him)  thankfully helped to edit (So they are "officially "awesome" too ;P). It should be published in the next week for the wider community. Here's a preview link in the meanwhile.
14:38:59 <t0xic0der[m]1> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/?p=10871&preview=1&_ppp=3391f6e3ef
14:39:05 <t0xic0der[m]1> Now let us look into some quantified progresses, shall we?
14:39:12 <t0xic0der[m]1> #info Completion with respect to planned outputs
14:39:14 <VipulSiddharth[m> yess
14:39:16 <t0xic0der[m]1> #info [NEEDS ATTENTION] Badges! Team swag!
14:39:23 <t0xic0der[m]1> #info [50% complete] At least one webapp (møte) is modernized, as well as one web site (spins/labs).
14:39:38 <t0xic0der[m]1> #info [50% complete] A documented plan for updating websites on new Fedora Linux releases, with understood team roles and responsibilities.
14:39:42 <t0xic0der[m]1> #info [ACTIVELY MAINTAINED] A selected list of apps and websites with service level expectations. The websites in use are the most maintained ones.
14:39:54 <t0xic0der[m]1> #info [ACTIVELY MAINTAINED] A continuously curated list of issues and tasks, organized by skillset and interest.
14:40:02 <t0xic0der[m]1> #info [75% completed] Updated Fedora Websites documentation that explains the inventory of websites and how to get involved.
14:40:11 <t0xic0der[m]1> #info [ACTIVELY MAINTAINED] A documented process is in plce for making sure requests (both PRs and requests for work) are triaged in a timely manner.
14:40:16 <t0xic0der[m]1> #info [NEEDS ATTENTION] "Websites Apprentices" program in place, and connections with Fedora Infrastructure team established.
14:40:23 <t0xic0der[m]1> #info [NEEDS ATTENTION] Fedora Mindshare Committee has an active, engaged representative to represent Fedora's Websites & Apps community.
14:40:30 <t0xic0der[m]1> Please do not be alarmed by looking at the points marked with a NEEDS ATTENTION tag. I did that to remark that these tasks require addressing from beyond within the team to make a sizeable progress. We are trying to make that happen but I suppose, those could go a bit more faster.
14:40:41 <t0xic0der[m]1> Please. _/_
14:40:56 <t0xic0der[m]1> I suppose, that is it for now. riecatnor , please feel free add in stuff that I probably have missed out on - I doubt that though and please feel free to ask questions that you may have.
14:41:31 * t0xic0der[m]1 drops the mic (on a cushion)
14:41:38 <mattdm> This is all very exciting.
14:42:10 <mattdm> I'm particularly interested in "A documented process is in plce for making sure requests (both PRs and requests for work) are triaged in a timely manner." can we get a link to that?
14:43:04 <t0xic0der> mattdm: Please find the stub here https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/websites/
14:43:44 <t0xic0der> We are slowly elaborating on the processes - like I mentioned - and making sure that when we disappear, people can still follow that stuff and get to the desired results. The quality of documentation would improve along the way.
14:44:52 <mattdm> What is the process for ensuring triage is in place?
14:44:55 <t0xic0der> For parts that have better resources elsewhere, say the shiny Developer fp.o - we do make it a point to redirect people there than to reinvent the wheel and do it all over in the same place.
14:45:24 <mattdm> That's one of the big parts of Ben's "Flywheel theory" -- making sure that there's some momentum held at all times.
14:45:35 <mattdm> I just skimmed the doc but don't see anything about that?
14:46:37 <t0xic0der> mattdm: It is not there (yet). In one of the last meetings, we did have a conversation to regain the momentum on the documentation side of things. I would make its way there very soon as it is one of the outputs which we are looking into right now.
14:47:41 <mattdm> Separate from documenting the plan, what is the plan? :)
14:48:01 <mattdm> I'd love if there are ideas we can learn from and apply to other teams.
14:48:12 <t0xic0der> Let me elaborate some.
14:48:46 <t0xic0der> @jwf came up with this runbook idea some time back which consisted of information to essentially run the team in both an operational as well as technical basis.
14:49:27 <t0xic0der> That would involve onboarding people, rules for meetings, examples for newcomers etc. and how those need to be done in as open a way as possible.
14:49:41 <t0xic0der> #link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/websites/runbook/
14:49:52 <t0xic0der> This is something that we tasked ourselves to expand upon
14:50:51 <t0xic0der> Things like meeting etiquette, skill levels prerequisite for contribution, tech stacks etc. have a likeliness to be assumed but we always prefer to have them explicitly stated to ensure smooth operation of the team.
14:51:46 <t0xic0der> One good example is the co-leads team. riecatnor[m], GrahamWhite[m], Justin and myself have been collaborating together to ensure the cohesion of the teams that are involved with the engineering and stakeholder side of things. As a result, we also had to adjust with the changing states of the teams.
14:52:14 <mattdm> Those thing are important, I agree
14:52:44 <mattdm> They might not solve what I am worried about, but that may just be because it's a bigger issue with no easy solution :)
14:53:23 <t0xic0der[m]1> So if I were to put it more clearly, we have established processes - some of them might lie in a hackmd document, some in a google doc or some in a repository but those are established and followed - and I like to see that as a good thing.
14:54:25 <t0xic0der[m]1> mattdm: Yes. And to be honest, those are the times when we cannot quite document precisely the situation and a vague generic description of the same does no favor to the issue. Lest that issue might just happen again :/
14:54:41 <mattdm> Yeah. :)
14:54:43 <mattdm> Thank you!
14:55:03 <t0xic0der[m]1> Folks, please feel free to ask questions that you may have :)
14:55:12 <riecatnor[m]> I think its important to take all those processes and put them in one place :)
14:55:29 <riecatnor[m]> t0xic0der[m]1: re: this message
14:56:34 <t0xic0der[m]1> riecatnor[m]: Exactly and that is what we tasked ourselves right now. Admittedly, documentation can be seen as "not a very exciting" thing to do but I have been making it a point that it is what we impart after following those processes. Hence, it is something important to work on.
14:56:39 <VipulSiddharth[m> you mentioned co-leads team
14:56:39 <VipulSiddharth[m> I suspect you mean different sub-teams leads.. am I correct?
14:57:16 <t0xic0der[m]1> Just yesterday, we had this brainstorming session in the engineering team where we had a 10-min countdown for folks to look through the documentation in its current state and come up with lacunaes and requirements.
14:57:25 <VipulSiddharth[m> (I asked this in yesterday's meeting as it was confusing for me .. so just ensuring I got it right and others also feel the same) :)
14:57:25 <VipulSiddharth[m> about co-leads teams
14:57:42 <VipulSiddharth[m> s/teams/team/
14:57:56 <bcotton> in the interests of time (and because IoT has this space in ~2 minutes), I'm going to ask that we take further questions/discussion elsewhere :-)
14:58:07 * riecatnor[m] googles lucunaes
14:58:12 <t0xic0der[m]1> Surprisingly (or not), we had loads of responses and those are in the process of being prioritized now. Once we separate the important documentation sections from those which are say, less important - we would get to offload our processes there :)
14:58:16 * riecatnor[m] * googles lacunaes
14:58:36 <bcotton> but thank you to t0xic0der and Mariana Balla for the updates! we should do this more often so they're less big
14:58:51 <bcotton> #topic Next meeting
14:58:51 <bcotton> #info The next regular business meeting is Wednesday 27 April
14:58:51 <bcotton> #info The next Video Meeting is TOMORROW. The guest will be Leonardo Rosetti talking about the KubeDev SIG
14:58:51 <bcotton> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Council/Video_Meetings
14:58:55 <t0xic0der[m]1> > <@siddharthvipul1:fedora.im> (I asked this in yesterday's meeting as it was confusing for me .. so just ensuring I got it right and others also feel the same) :)
14:58:55 <t0xic0der[m]1> > about co-leads team
14:58:55 <t0xic0der[m]1> I do think that the name can be confusing. Let's bring it up the coming OBjective Co-leads discussion?
14:59:08 <mattdm> Yes! Monthly was too much, but yearly-or-less is clearly too little :)
14:59:11 <t0xic0der[m]1> bcotton: Thanks for hearing me out :D
14:59:15 <bcotton> #endmeeting