17:00:07 <mhroncok> #startmeeting FESCO (2022-05-17)
17:00:07 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue May 17 17:00:07 2022 UTC.
17:00:07 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:00:07 <zodbot> The chair is mhroncok. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
17:00:07 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2022-05-17)'
17:00:08 <mhroncok> #chair nirik, decathorpe, zbyszek, sgallagh, mhroncok, dcantrell, mboddu, tstellar, Conan_Kudo, Pharaoh_Atem, Son_Goku, King_InuYasha, Sir_Gallantmon, Eighth_Doctor
17:00:08 <zodbot> Current chairs: Conan_Kudo Eighth_Doctor King_InuYasha Pharaoh_Atem Sir_Gallantmon Son_Goku dcantrell decathorpe mboddu mhroncok nirik sgallagh tstellar zbyszek
17:00:09 <mhroncok> #topic init process
17:00:14 <mhroncok> .hello churchyard
17:00:15 <zodbot> mhroncok: churchyard 'Miro Hrončok' <mhroncok@redhat.com>
17:00:18 <nirik> morning
17:00:23 <nirik> .hello kevin
17:00:24 <zodbot> nirik: kevin 'Kevin Fenzi' <kevin@scrye.com>
17:00:25 <sgallagh> .hi
17:00:27 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
17:00:47 <mhroncok> nirik, Stephen Gallagher hi
17:01:20 <bcotton> .hello2
17:01:21 <zodbot> bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' <bcotton@redhat.com>
17:01:24 <mhroncok> hey Ben Cotton (he/him)
17:02:09 <zbyszek> .hello2
17:02:10 <zodbot> zbyszek: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' <zbyszek@in.waw.pl>
17:02:26 <mhroncok> hello zbyszek
17:02:37 <tstellar_> .hello tstellar
17:02:38 <zodbot> tstellar_: tstellar 'Tom Stellard' <tstellar@redhat.com>
17:03:06 * mhroncok is still a bit confused seeing 3 instances of the same person when trying to tag them (Matrix)
17:03:12 <mhroncok> hey tstellar_
17:03:22 <mhroncok> that means we have a quorum
17:03:53 <mhroncok> #topic #2790 Election Interview Questions — FESCo (F36)
17:03:55 <zbyszek> We haven't had a meeting in a long time, it seems.
17:03:58 <mhroncok> .fesco 2790
17:03:59 <zodbot> mhroncok: Issue #2790: Election Interview Questions — FESCo (F36) - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2790
17:04:33 <mhroncok> a point has been made in the ticket that there are probably to many ELN-rleated questions in there
17:04:43 <mhroncok> but no specific proposal has been made
17:05:01 <zbyszek> I think ELN is completely non-controversial at this point, so I'd prefer 0 ELN-themed questions.
17:05:14 <mhroncok> considering the deadline is in 8 days, I added thsi to the agenda
17:05:17 <sgallagh> I'm good with that
17:05:33 <zbyszek> I like what Miro proposed, or the ~equivalent proposal from Ben.
17:05:34 <nirik> +1 to dropping the eln themed one
17:05:36 <mhroncok> I agree that ELN is completely non-controversial at this point
17:05:38 <sgallagh> My intention with those questions previously was to make sure we weren't just being quietly loathed :)
17:05:44 <mhroncok> (which is excellent BTW)
17:06:20 <mhroncok> if we drop both
17:06:27 <sgallagh> I did want to ask if we should add a question about Fedora's relationship with CentOS Stream
17:06:28 <mhroncok> should we have 2 replacements?
17:07:15 <sgallagh> I don't think it needs to be an equivalent exchange
17:07:52 <mhroncok> olright
17:07:55 <mhroncok> *alright
17:08:08 <mhroncok> How should we handle cases where Fedora's and Red Hat Enterprise Linux's needs conflict in an incompatible way? is the historical reference
17:08:22 <mhroncok> Stephen Gallagher: would you like to formulate a question about centos stream?
17:08:35 <zbyszek> So… what about: 1. How do feel we should balance the needs of RHEL and CentOS with the needs of Fedora? 2. What should the be the next big directions in the Fedora project?
17:08:38 <sgallagh> "With the advent of CentOS Stream, Fedora's positioning in the Red Hat family has changed a bit. What opportunities and risks do you see with this new approach?"
17:09:04 <sgallagh> (Draft suggestion, wordsmithing quite welcome)
17:09:21 <zbyszek> +1 to sgallagh proposal, over my 1.
17:09:26 * nirik is fine with all those...
17:09:34 <zbyszek> I'd just drop "a bit".
17:09:42 <bcotton> my concern with those kinds of question is that it seemingly indicates the presence of conflict where none (mostly) exists. i worry about the external (mis)interpretation
17:09:54 <sgallagh> sure, we can drop that
17:10:35 <sgallagh> Ben Cotton (he/him): I don't think it's implying the presence of conflict, I think it's asking if the respondent feels that conflict is occurring.
17:10:39 <zbyszek> bcotton: dunno, I think it's better to ask explictly. Most people answer that a balance needs to be struck, which seems OK.
17:10:39 <mhroncok> Ben Cotton (he/him): does "What opportunities and risks do you see..." adress that concern?
17:11:01 <mhroncok> s/adress/address/
17:11:10 <decathorpe> hello! I'm here, sorry for being late.
17:11:30 <bcotton> Does that conflict exist for people who don't report up through Mike McGrath, though? If so, I don't see it
17:11:45 <sgallagh> You're not the target for that question :)
17:11:47 <mhroncok> hey Fabio Valentini , we are discussing the election questions, there seems to be a consensus to replace the ELN questions
17:11:49 <bcotton> And if not, then it's not a question we should be asking of candidate for Fedora bodies
17:12:00 <mboddu> Hello
17:12:49 <sgallagh> Ben Cotton (he/him): I disagree. I think it's important to know if a Fedora candidate (Red Hat employee or otherwise) feels that Fedora is *threatened* by this change, or sees opportunity in it.
17:12:59 <mhroncok> or both :)
17:13:05 <sgallagh> Or both, indeed
17:13:32 <bcotton> I guess the next question is: what if they do?
17:13:43 <bcotton> Like what do we as a project (or FESCo specifically) change?
17:13:53 * mhroncok goes fetch some popcorn, brb
17:13:56 <sgallagh> Maybe add "How would you address these risks and opportunities?" to the end of the question.
17:14:05 <bcotton> i'm not saying it's not important to know if the community feels threatened or excited about it, because it is. but i'm not sure this is the right venue to ask that
17:14:30 <bcotton> and i don't want some of the bad faith tech bloggers to use it as fuel for their bad faith articles
17:14:42 <sgallagh> or perhaps: "If elected, what policies would you propose to address these..."
17:14:55 <sgallagh> Haters gonna hate.
17:15:12 <zbyszek> I think the questions are open-ended enough as they are. We don't need to guide the answers.
17:15:14 <bcotton> indeed they are. but no need to feed the trolls :-)
17:15:27 <sgallagh> Doesn't matter what we write. If we don't give them ammunition, they just invent it anyway
17:15:49 <bcotton> at any rate, i've expressed my concerns. it's not my decision to make, but thank you for listneing :-)
17:15:50 <bcotton> true story
17:16:18 <tstellar_> I'm fine with the original working of sgallagh question.
17:16:20 <sgallagh> Your input is valuable, Ben. Thank you.
17:16:43 <mhroncok> With the advent of CentOS Stream, Fedora's positioning in the Red Hat family has changed. Where do you think Fedora stands now and where should it move to?
17:16:55 <nirik> we could drop opportunities and risks and just ask what you think of it in general?
17:16:55 <mhroncok> what about that? no implied conflict
17:17:11 <tstellar_> mhroncok: I think that version is fine too.
17:17:15 <mhroncok> nirik: that was more or less my idea here
17:17:15 <sgallagh> I think that could lead to "griping" responses
17:17:28 <nirik> well, fedora hasn't really changed tho... it's still upstream for rhel. ;)
17:17:39 <sgallagh> But I like mhroncok's version a lot
17:18:04 <sgallagh> nirik: It's less "upstream" and more "the point where the tributaries come together to become a river" :)
17:18:51 <mhroncok> ok
17:19:08 <Eighth_Doctor> .hello ngompa
17:19:09 <zodbot> Eighth_Doctor: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
17:19:15 * Eighth_Doctor is back from the dentist
17:19:22 <mhroncok> shall we vote for my version? I propose to replace both ELN questions with that one
17:19:25 <nirik> how about just: With the advent of CentOS Stream, where do you Fedora stands now and where should it move to?
17:19:44 <mhroncok> where do you Fedora stands
17:19:46 <nirik> Eighth_Doctor: fun! :(
17:19:47 <sgallagh> Conan Kudo: I hope they gave you nitrous. You're going to need it for this meeting :-D
17:19:50 <mhroncok> apart from that, I liek it
17:19:55 <nirik> sorry, copyandpasta
17:19:55 <mhroncok> s/liek/like/
17:20:18 <nirik> With the advent of CentOS Stream, Where do you think Fedora stands now and where should it move to?
17:20:23 <Eighth_Doctor> not that I have any idea what's going on, but the question seems okay other than the missing "think" :)
17:20:40 <sgallagh> I have one patch to that
17:21:12 <nirik> Eighth_Doctor: talking about election questions... replacing the ELN ones.
17:21:18 <sgallagh> "With the advent of CentOS Stream, Where do you think Fedora stands now and what advantages does that bring?"
17:21:38 <sgallagh> Ben: can you find any negatives in that phrasing? ;-)
17:21:38 <nirik> sure. +1
17:21:45 <Eighth_Doctor> that's an... interesting question
17:22:11 <zbyszek> Hmm, I liked the "where should it move to" in nirik's version more.
17:22:15 <sgallagh> I'll admit, it's a somewhat leading question
17:22:22 <bcotton> Stephen Gallagher: of course i can ;-)
17:22:43 * nirik came up with one, but decided not to type it.
17:22:43 <Eighth_Doctor> Stephen Gallagher: I think we shouldn't try to lead so obviously in a question
17:22:45 <sgallagh> zbyszek: I'm concerned that "where should it move to" implies that it's not in a good place now
17:22:56 <zbyszek> Yeah, what Eighth_Doctor said.
17:23:14 <zbyszek> No, to me "where should it move to" is neutral and ask about plans for the future.
17:23:22 <mboddu> I like nirik' suggestion
17:23:31 <sgallagh> "What's your least favorite color and why is it magenta?"
17:23:36 <decathorpe> It kind of imples that we need to move.
17:23:41 <mhroncok> With the advent of CentOS Stream, where do you think Fedora stands now and what should be the plans for the future?
17:23:45 <Eighth_Doctor> "With the advent of CentOS Stream, what do you think Fedora's role and what do you think we should do next?"
17:23:50 <sgallagh> Maybe "where would you like to see it go?"
17:24:07 <Eighth_Doctor> blech, missing prepositions
17:24:15 <zbyszek> sgallagh: +1
17:24:36 <mboddu> nirik, mhroncok and Eighth_Doctor are all good, maybe mhroncok is better worded
17:24:39 <sgallagh> mhroncok: That's pretty much the same as mine, but with better wording. +1
17:24:39 <decathorpe> I like mhroncok's last suggestion.
17:24:41 <mhroncok> we could also replace the entire set of questions with: Why should people vote for you in this election? (half serious)
17:25:07 <zbyszek> mhroncok: keep in mind that we're already 24 minutes into the topic :)
17:25:42 <nirik> mhroncok: I proposed that and people didn't like it.
17:26:16 <mhroncok> ok, let's vote?
17:26:28 <Eighth_Doctor> it's harder for people who don't know how advocate for themselves by doing that
17:26:34 <mhroncok> proposal: "With the advent of CentOS Stream, where do you think Fedora stands now and what should be the plans for the future?" replaces the ELN questions
17:26:40 <tstellar_> We could also just drop the ELN questions and not replace them.
17:26:41 <zbyszek> mhroncok: +1
17:26:42 <nirik> +1
17:26:47 <sgallagh> +1
17:26:49 <Eighth_Doctor> mhroncok: +1
17:26:49 <mhroncok> +1 to my own prposal
17:26:53 <decathorpe> mhroncok: +1
17:26:55 <tstellar_> mhroncok: +1
17:27:19 <mhroncok> #agreed "With the advent of CentOS Stream, where do you think Fedora stands now and what should be the plans for the future?" replaces the ELN questions, +7,0,-0
17:27:23 <mhroncok> thanks
17:27:27 <sgallagh> \o/
17:27:30 <mhroncok> #topic Next week's chair
17:28:01 <sgallagh> It's been a while. I can take it.
17:28:09 <mhroncok> thanks
17:28:17 <mhroncok> #action sgallagh will chair next meeting
17:28:33 <mhroncok> #topic Open Floor
17:28:58 <sgallagh> Is a pop-tart a calzone? Discuss.
17:29:03 <Eighth_Doctor> I've got something to say..
17:29:13 <mhroncok> it is a sandwitch
17:29:34 <mhroncok> nice typo
17:29:46 * bcotton gets in the queue
17:29:59 <mhroncok> https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.452143788.3850/flat,750x,075,f-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.u3.jpg
17:30:11 <mhroncok> what's up Ben Cotton (he/him)
17:30:33 <Eighth_Doctor> So, in the last FESCo meeting, I acted with more antagonism than is warranted. More particularly, I became predisposed to assume ill intent from folks working on Changes in Fedora.
17:31:04 <Eighth_Doctor> It led to me blowing up and blowing out in the last FESCo meeting.
17:31:09 <Eighth_Doctor> This is not acceptable from myself or anyone else in FESCo, and I'm sorry for that.
17:31:38 <sgallagh> Conan Kudo: You're passionate about Fedora. We can respect that.
17:31:59 <mhroncok> we should explicitly mark ill-intended changes so this doesn't happen in the future
17:32:06 <Eighth_Doctor> The only excuse I can give is that I've been under a ridiculous amount of stress from multiple angles this cycle, and it shortened my fuse to an unacceptable level.
17:32:49 <Eighth_Doctor> I don't particularly want to get into all the things that happened this cycle to me publicly, but I will discuss it in private for anyone who might want to know.
17:33:09 <zbyszek> Eighth_Doctor: +1 to what sgallagh said.
17:33:18 <nirik> kudos for the appology. Stress happens to us all...
17:33:23 <Eighth_Doctor> Hopefully, it won't happen again, and I'm going to try to be better about this in the future.
17:33:38 <Eighth_Doctor> Oh, "anyone" being other FESCo members.
17:33:52 <Eighth_Doctor> I unfortunately will not air it out beyond that.
17:34:27 <mhroncok> Conan Kudo: don't worry about it too much, it can happen to all of us. I remember that the modularity discussions were quire heated for me.
17:34:56 <Eighth_Doctor> Yeah, whoo boy that was a mess
17:35:13 <sgallagh> "was"?
17:35:14 <mhroncok> you might consider resending this apology to the change owners who were present at that meeting and are not present on this one (I don't know if that happened)
17:35:26 <mhroncok> Stephen Gallagher: don't start :D
17:35:47 <nirik> There's been a lot of heated ones over the years... we just need to strive to be kind to each other.
17:36:01 <sgallagh> We all have days like that, Conan Kudo . Thank you for the apology anyway.
17:36:29 <mhroncok> Conan Kudo++
17:36:46 <zbyszek> Eighth_Doctor++
17:36:46 <zodbot> zbyszek: Karma for ngompa changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:36:54 <mhroncok> Ben Cotton (he/him): I guess you can take it now
17:36:57 <zbyszek> Hah, zodbot likes me.
17:37:08 <bcotton> .fesco 2713
17:37:09 <zodbot> bcotton: Issue #2713: Change proposal: Make Rescue Mode Work With Locked Root - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2713
17:37:47 <bcotton> are we leaving this open or should it be considered withdrawn?
17:38:00 <Eighth_Doctor> up to zbyszek
17:38:02 <mhroncok> I would consider it withdrawn
17:38:19 <zbyszek> It wasn't my proposal actually, so I don't think I should take that decision.
17:38:23 <sgallagh> I say consider it withdrawn and will be resubmitted later
17:38:25 <bcotton> the "we have a plan but no timeline yet" to me suggests it should be withdrawn for now, but i don't want to act unilaterally
17:38:25 <Eighth_Doctor> I'm fine with either
17:38:46 <zbyszek> I was very much against the original proposal and submitted some alternative approaches, but they are not at the level of a working proposal yet.
17:38:46 * nirik agrees with withdrawn, resubmit when it's baked
17:38:57 <Eighth_Doctor> consider it withdrawn at this point
17:39:15 <Eighth_Doctor> it's a problem we need to deal with eventually, but we have no working model yet
17:39:18 <mhroncok> #agreed #2713: Change proposal: Make Rescue Mode Work With Locked Root is withdrawn at this point
17:39:25 <Eighth_Doctor> though I don't like that CoreOS is shipping this way already
17:39:26 <bcotton> ack. thanks!
17:40:01 <mhroncok> ok folks
17:40:01 <mhroncok> I need to leave
17:40:02 <mhroncok> anything else for open floor?
17:40:04 <sgallagh> Nothing but more jokes, so I'll save them for next time
17:40:08 <nirik> I had one short thing: Elections are coming up soon! Nominate if you are interested in running for anything!
17:40:40 <mhroncok> Stephen Gallagher: I wanted say "and no jokes" but that would just be a joke-magnet
17:40:45 <mhroncok> ok, thanks nirik
17:40:51 <mhroncok> and everybody else
17:40:55 <mhroncok> have a nice rest of the day
17:41:01 <sgallagh> You too. thanks for chairing
17:41:05 <mhroncok> #endmeeting