14:00:32 <bcotton> #startmeeting Council (2022-07-02)
14:00:32 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jul 20 14:00:32 2022 UTC.
14:00:32 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:00:32 <zodbot> The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
14:00:32 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:32 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2022-07-02)'
14:00:33 <bcotton> #meetingname council
14:00:33 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
14:00:33 <bcotton> #chair dcantrell siddharthvipul1 riecatnor spot mattdm bcotton sumantrom marianab bt0 t0xic0der
14:00:33 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton bt0 dcantrell marianab mattdm riecatnor siddharthvipul1 spot sumantrom t0xic0der
14:00:40 <bcotton> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
14:00:42 <VipulSiddharth[m> .hello siddharthvipul1
14:00:43 <zodbot> VipulSiddharth[m: siddharthvipul1 'Vipul Siddharth' <siddharthvipul1@gmail.com>
14:00:46 <dcantrell> .hello2
14:00:47 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
14:00:49 <t0xic0der[m]1> .hello t0xic0der
14:00:52 <riecatnor[m]> .hello riecatnor
14:00:53 <bcotton> who's ready to Councilllllllllllllllllllllllll?
14:00:53 <zodbot> t0xic0der[m]1: t0xic0der 'Akashdeep Dhar' <akashdeep.dhar@gmail.com>
14:00:56 <zodbot> riecatnor[m]: riecatnor 'Marie Nordin' <mnordin@redhat.com>
14:01:04 * VipulSiddharth[m hides
14:01:07 <mattdm> Good $TIMEOFDAY!
14:01:19 <VipulSiddharth[m> Good morning (ugt) all \o
14:03:37 <mattdm> hello, crickets!
14:03:44 <bcotton> #topic Today's agenda
14:03:44 <bcotton> #info Action item follow up
14:03:44 <bcotton> #info Council @ Nest
14:03:44 <bcotton> #info Strategic plan update
14:03:44 <bcotton> #info Your topics here!
14:03:57 <bcotton> #topic Action item follow up
14:03:58 <bcotton> time for the shame!
14:04:02 <bcotton> #info mattdm to create a historical documents section for old Council docs, Board decisions, etc
14:04:11 <mattdm> I do not like agenda item # 1
14:04:16 <mattdm> it seems full of guilt.
14:04:17 <t0xic0der[m]1> I have a topic to bring up if we have the time for it
14:04:24 <bcotton> t0xic0der: ack
14:04:46 <bcotton> mattdm i assume this should continue to the net time?
14:04:50 <bcotton> or next
14:04:52 <dcantrell> historical documents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLZQz26-kms
14:05:03 <mattdm> No no it's good :)
14:05:10 * bcotton needs to run his keyboard through the dishwasher again
14:05:12 <mattdm> I mean, yes.
14:05:16 <bcotton> #action mattdm to create a historical documents section for old Council docs, Board decisions, etc
14:05:32 <mattdm> I actually did it in my local fork just need to make the PR
14:05:36 <bcotton> #info bcotton to write the “economic-political/labour relation to Red Hat” content requested in ticket 388
14:05:45 <bcotton> speaking of "things that are not done"
14:05:46 <bcotton> #action bcotton to write the “economic-political/labour relation to Red Hat” content requested in ticket 388
14:05:51 <bcotton> anything other outstanding action items I missed?
14:06:09 * mattdm goes to read ticket 388
14:06:58 <mattdm> I vote for more hours in the day.
14:07:01 <mattdm> Next topic :)
14:07:09 <bcotton> no, that would just lead to more work to do
14:07:19 <bcotton> #topic Council @ Nest
14:07:19 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/flock/issue/399
14:07:41 <bcotton> if you have not yet indicated your availability for our panel session, please do that soon or else marie will be very sad
14:08:57 <mattdm> dcantrell: thank you for opening the ticket :)
14:09:02 <bcotton> and, of course, be sure to register (and tell your friends to register, too)
14:09:03 <bcotton> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/nest-with-fedora-2022-registration-now-open/
14:09:08 <dcantrell> mattdm: you're welcome
14:09:13 <riecatnor[m]> dcantrell++
14:09:30 <t0xic0der[m]1> dcantrell++
14:09:46 <mattdm> #link https://pagure.io/flock/issue/399
14:09:56 <mattdm> oh wait ben already did that lol
14:10:03 <mattdm> #undo
14:10:03 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Link object at 0x7fe2d6c6ec50>
14:10:34 <bcotton> anything else on this?
14:11:41 <bcotton> #topic Strategic plan update
14:11:42 <mattdm> Just -- please make it a priority, everyone.
14:11:55 <mattdm> oh next topic :)
14:12:23 <mattdm> So... Ben, Marie and I got together in person. Travel is still kind of insane, but it was worth it.
14:12:45 <mattdm> We did some brainstorming on the next steps for our next 3-5 year strategy
14:13:00 <mattdm> (And actually, decided based on what we came up with that it's definitely a 5 year thing.)
14:13:08 <mattdm> (Because it's ambitious and not in a bad way.)
14:13:27 <mattdm> #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-in-2025-what-do-we-want-and-how-will-we-get-there/35258
14:14:10 <mattdm> We were hoping we could do a council virtual face to face to move to next steps, but as y'all know, we did not find a good time that worked for even almost everyone.
14:14:57 <mattdm> So, we decided Ben, Marie, and I would work on some of the basic brainstorming and come back with some ideas for the Council and the Community at large.
14:15:29 <mattdm> I decided I'm going to do that through some more Discussion posts....
14:15:48 <mattdm> which expand on each thing
14:16:11 <mattdm> This is a lot of homework for me but I think it's the most critical area where I should focus
14:16:39 <mattdm> Basically, we have the three big areas we outlined...
14:18:13 <mattdm> * a11y
14:18:14 <mattdm> * innovation in the distro space
14:18:30 <mattdm> * grow from the 3-editions strategy to the next phase
14:18:35 <mattdm> give-or-take the wording
14:19:12 <VipulSiddharth[m> I am really excited to see where we go with accessibility things
14:19:12 <VipulSiddharth[m> It's lovely to see it becoming a priority <3
14:19:29 <mattdm> We started on some logic model stuff, and decided those were too big -- like epics in a scrum team or something. So we came up with some specific focus areas for each
14:19:45 <mattdm> and then identified outcomes we'd like to see in each of the focus areas.
14:19:57 <t0xic0der[m]1> We have a11y as one of the primary objectives for the Fedora Websites 3.0 efforts.
14:19:57 <t0xic0der[m]1> More on that later.
14:20:15 <mattdm> So I'm going to write about that process, and the the focus areas we came up with
14:20:18 <mattdm> with the basic goal of:
14:20:25 <mattdm> 1. validating the focus areas we identified
14:20:39 <mattdm> 2. identifying any others we (the council and the community at large) think we should add
14:20:54 <mattdm> 3. attaching solid, measurable outcomes to each of the focus areas
14:21:05 <mattdm> This will give us the strategic side of a logic model
14:21:12 <mattdm> I will also do more logic model refreshering :)
14:22:40 <mattdm> Once we have that, we can work on the pragmatic: each outcome (change we expect to happen in the world but which we can't directly touch) should have corresponding outputs (things we produce that we believe are necessary and sufficient (in the math sense) to cause that outcome)
14:23:19 <mattdm> And then, we break down the activities needed to support those outputs -- the things people will actually do
14:23:38 <mattdm> and then the resources / inputs we will need to make those activies happen
14:24:20 <mattdm> and then we look at that left-most 'inputs' column and see if those are things we have, things we could get, or things that... we wish but don't have. And go back across the chart with realism in mind
14:24:32 <VipulSiddharth[m> so following your ideas and review, I did update Accessibility working group logic model (it's not perfect but maybe we can hack on it together sometimes -- async works for this)
14:24:32 <VipulSiddharth[m> https://pagure.io/fork/siddharthvipul1/FedoraLogicModelTemplate/blob/a11y/f/Accessibility-sig.png
14:25:32 <mattdm> So we end up with a model which reads either right to left (from strategy -> what we plan to do -> what we need)
14:25:50 <mattdm> or left to right (things we have or are asking for -> what we'll do with them -> what that will accomplish)
14:26:56 <mattdm> Vipul Siddharth: Awesome! And, yeah, this will be big, so I think it will be useful to have some fractal-style zoomed in views too.
14:27:13 <mattdm> And of course, not every team will fit into the Grand Overall Model
14:27:33 <mattdm> It's not meant to be a Unified Theory of Fedora.
14:27:58 <mattdm> At least, I don't think so. If we can find some neat way to make it so everything anyone is doing fits in, that would be amazing, but isn't a goal in itself :)
14:28:47 <mattdm> Does this seem ... good to everyone? Thoughts, concerns, skepticisms?
14:29:31 <VipulSiddharth[m> loving it so far
14:29:31 <VipulSiddharth[m> In your discussion Matthew (with Ben and Marie),
14:29:31 <VipulSiddharth[m> what were your goal as per a11y
14:29:31 <VipulSiddharth[m> Accessibility in Fedora Linux or Accessibility in Fedora Contributors workflow (there are some that overlaps both like docs)
14:29:47 <bcotton> i think it's a good approach
14:29:53 <t0xic0der[m]1> mattdm: Looks good as of now
14:29:53 <VipulSiddharth[m> s/goal/focus/, s/as/in/, s/per//
14:29:53 <t0xic0der[m]1> Should be able to fit in enough details
14:31:33 <mattdm> Vipul Siddharth: So, looking at notes... we actually labeled the top-level (right-most on the model) thing "Fedora for all!", and then had a11y and "reach" as focus areas.
14:31:42 <mattdm> Under a11y, we identified four focus areas:
14:33:00 <mattdm> * websites
14:33:00 <mattdm> * docs (the text)
14:33:00 <mattdm> * the OS itself
14:33:00 <mattdm> * project tooling
14:33:00 <mattdm> And under "reach":
14:33:01 <mattdm> * preinstalled systems
14:33:01 <mattdm> * better support for our global community
14:33:02 <mattdm> Many of the topics in different areas touch DEI and accessibility in a broad sense -- like that last item
14:33:35 <mattdm> For the top-level "distro innovation" area, we also split that into two:
14:34:34 <mattdm> technical leadership
14:34:34 <mattdm> * supply chain
14:34:34 <mattdm> * immutable os
14:34:34 <mattdm> * containers
14:35:34 <mattdm> community leadership
14:35:34 <mattdm> * mentorship
14:35:34 <mattdm> * human connections across tech/non-tech parts of project
14:35:34 <mattdm> * measuring community health
14:35:56 <TheExorcist[m]> Can I suggest few points?
14:35:58 <VipulSiddharth[m> Four focus area matches a lot with what Accessibility group has in mind
14:35:58 <VipulSiddharth[m> so that's great to hear
14:36:42 <mattdm> And for completeness while I'm doing this... the beyond-3-editions area split into
14:36:42 <mattdm> * spins, remixes, downstreams
14:37:33 <mattdm> * grouped content (like design suite, comp neuroscience, etc) as something other than bootable media, without losing team identies
14:37:48 <mattdm> this third area needs some more work to be symmetrical with the others :)
14:38:28 <bcotton> symmetry is overrated
14:38:49 <mattdm> > <@siddharthvipul1:fedora.im> Four focus area matches a lot with what Accessibility group has in mind
14:38:49 <mattdm> > so that's great to hear
14:38:49 <mattdm> It's not really a coincidence -- more like plagurism :)
14:39:01 <mattdm> TheExorcist[m]: Yes please!
14:39:24 <mattdm> Although, tbh, if it's big, please bring it to the upcoming forum posts
14:39:38 <mattdm> If it's about the process though we can talk about it some here
14:41:04 <TheExorcist[m]> Educate the users to use tools(trusted third party tools also should be OK), when they approach #Fedora support. Because all users may not be interested in learning CLI commands, to resolve the issues..
14:42:14 <mattdm> TheExorcist[m]: Is there a particular area you would fit that under? Maybe it is "accessibility in documentation content"?
14:42:52 <TheExorcist[m]> like installing tty fonts
14:42:53 <mattdm> or possibly something that fits under the idea of "better global reach". (Or a point that sits next to that about better user experience in troubleshooting?)
14:43:59 <mattdm> TheExorcist[m]: That seems... awfully specific? Isn't this just ("just" -> I don't mean to diminish the importance) a matter of better how-to docs?
14:44:11 <TheExorcist[m]> mattdm: I see Fedora is not packed with few standard Gnome tools. Can Fedora team identify and fix that?
14:44:48 <mattdm> That's definitely way too in the details for the level we're talking about here.
14:46:40 <bcotton> #action mattdm to start Discussion threads on each of the goals for the strategic plan
14:48:20 * bcotton wonders if mattdm is still typing
14:48:25 <mattdm> To send you to the right place: that's for the Fedora Workstation Working Group. There actually is some rhyme and reason to what they've selected. From this level, that team owns the decision and as long as it's not harmful or something, we just care that there is reason and plan, not the specifics. :)
14:48:30 <mattdm> yesssss I was.
14:48:31 <mattdm> Sorry.
14:48:38 <bcotton> all gravy :-)
14:48:39 <mattdm> I think we can wrap this up :)
14:48:50 <bcotton> okay, i look forward to the Discussion discussion
14:49:14 <mattdm> I am not commiting to an urgent timeline btw
14:49:19 <t0xic0der[m]1> bcotton: Some tautology right there ;P
14:49:26 <bcotton> #topic Next meeting
14:49:26 <bcotton> #info The next regular business meeting is Wednesday 17 August
14:49:26 <bcotton> (not meeting on the 3rd because it's the day before Nest)
14:49:43 <bcotton> i made a unilateral decision on that, btw. i am drunk with power
14:49:48 <mattdm> "because Nest" is a good reason for a lot of things right now.
14:49:56 <bcotton> #info The next Video Meeting is 14 September. The guests will be Mariana Balla and Sumantro Mukherjee presenting a wrapup of the Community Outreach Revamp objective
14:49:56 <bcotton> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Council/Video_Meetings
14:49:58 <mattdm> I support your power-move there Ben.
14:50:04 <mattdm> Yay!
14:50:08 <bcotton> #topic Do we have anything to announce?
14:50:08 <bcotton> #info This is a regular check to make sure we're communicating to the contributor (via CommBlog) and user (via Magazine) communities
14:50:12 <bcotton> #info Previously announced
14:50:17 <bcotton> #info Nest registration is open: https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/nest-with-fedora-2022-registration-now-open/
14:50:17 <bcotton> #info We're looking for Marie's successor: https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedora-job-opening-community-action-and-impact-coordinator-fcaic/
14:50:23 <bcotton> anything new?
14:50:51 <t0xic0der[m]1> Some updates from my side
14:50:51 <t0xic0der[m]1> I can wait
14:51:23 <t0xic0der[m]1> (That is if there's nothing else remaining - I can start)
14:51:33 <mattdm> riecatnor: Do you know how long the listing is going to remain posted?
14:51:34 <bcotton> t0xic0der: stand by
14:51:42 <mattdm> I believe we are in the last days....
14:51:44 <t0xic0der[m]1> Ben Cotton (he/him): ack
14:51:46 <riecatnor[m]> I think until tomorrow for the fcaic posting
14:51:53 <riecatnor[m]> actually, let me send a reminder on that :)
14:52:38 <bcotton> #topic Open floor
14:52:40 <bcotton> t0xic0der: your turn
14:52:52 <t0xic0der[m]1> Ben Cotton (he/him): thanks
14:53:04 <t0xic0der[m]1> Fedora Hatch Pune India went really well - I was quite surprised by the interest we were met with and we also were able to onboard around 5-6 contributors in the Fedora Websites and Apps Team - 2 voluntary contributors and 3-4 Redhatters who work for the One Platform Team.
14:53:11 <t0xic0der[m]1> With them being folks who predominantly work on web technologies in their team, they found Websites and Apps Team to be the best entry point to the community and I seized the opportunity to put them together with the existing folks of the team to plan a detailed roadmap.
14:53:17 <t0xic0der[m]1> #link https://github.com/t0xic0der/t0xic0der/raw/master/FW3Proposal_11Jul2022.pdf
14:53:28 <t0xic0der[m]1> I had a 1:1 conversation with a lot of stakeholders handing development and infrastructure from within the Community Platform Engineering team, handling design from within the newly formed Community Design Team, developers from the One Platform Team and folks from the Fedora Websites and Apps Team on this. I came up with a co-jointed workgroup model to ensure that cross-disciplinary teams get to work on the stuff that they have
14:53:28 <t0xic0der[m]1> an interest for and prevent possible gatekeeping among subteams.
14:53:38 <t0xic0der[m]1> As soon as I got everyone together, we laid down a roadmap for the first checkpoint (Flock To Fedora website), we settled on the design and the technological stack that we would want to make use of in the implementation. I had a discussion within the folks from within Community Platform Engineering team as well to ensure that we settle on the technologies that are accessible to the contributors, easy to get started with and
14:53:38 <t0xic0der[m]1> uniform enough to not be a painpoint down the line.
14:53:42 <t0xic0der[m]1> #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/getting-our-tools-right-frontend-frameworks/40663
14:53:58 <t0xic0der[m]1> I met Ben Cotton (he/him) yesterday and told him about all this stuff that we are upto. He shared an excellent idea of revamping the Start fpo site before we push out our Fedora Linux 37 release, and by that, we are not only pushing out a quality Linux distribution but also a quality web experience along with it for our users.
14:54:06 <t0xic0der[m]1> The GetFedora is something that we would get to work on once we are done revamping the Flock To Fedora website and the Start fpo website. We are yet to lay down the roadmap for it as I want to first understand the state of the team with the first two initial revamp efforts and that in turn would put me in a better position to plan better for the team.
14:54:27 <t0xic0der[m]1> Please go through the slide deck that I linked before whenever you have time and that should be able to fill you in with some more relevant details pertaining to our Fedora Websites 3.0 efforts. And as always, I am open to questions/concerns/areyoukiddingmes so please feel free to reach out to me ;P
14:54:28 <mattdm> t0xic0der[m]1: Isn't this what Mo is already working on?
14:54:31 <t0xic0der[m]1> Fin. Well, at least from my side.
14:54:44 <t0xic0der[m]1> mattdm: Máirín Duffy is working with us on it, yes
14:55:03 <t0xic0der[m]1> I am curious to know what you think about this.
14:56:31 <mattdm> t0xic0der[m]1: which part? :)
14:56:58 <mattdm> I think everything you shared about and hatch and the team is excellent :)
14:57:01 <t0xic0der[m]1> mattdm: The entirety of it ;P
14:57:01 <t0xic0der[m]1> To put it, the Fedora Websites 3.0 effort
14:57:29 <mattdm> I am very happy to see it. It is nice to be seeing tangible results!
14:57:29 <t0xic0der[m]1> We could always use more help, opinions, two cents on how we can improve on this.
14:57:57 <riecatnor[m]> there is a lot to read on the discussion post, but I appreciate that you have CPE & design incorporated in the planning
14:58:32 <t0xic0der[m]1> riecatnor[m]: That is how we ensured that the team and the efforts are sustainable in the long run
14:58:39 <TheExorcist[m]> How can I start contributing to Fedora, as a newbie? I would like to start as a Black Box Tester..!
14:59:03 <t0xic0der[m]1> We want to make sure that we not only make a dent but also to document them all.
14:59:03 <t0xic0der[m]1> That way, we enable the community to do big things even when we are not around
14:59:13 <mattdm> TheExorcist[m]: See the #join:fedoraproject.org channel -- that's a great way to get started
14:59:27 <mattdm> Or if testing is your main interest already, jump right into #quality:fedoraproject.org  and say hello
14:59:47 <mattdm> t0xic0der: Maybe we should promote your Discussion post for more feedback?
14:59:53 <bcotton> Alrighty, time to clear the room for IoT
15:00:12 <bcotton> thanks for the great discussion, everyone! see you at Nest
15:00:17 <bcotton> #endmeeting