15:00:47 #startmeeting Fedora Council meeting - 2022-12-07 15:00:47 Meeting started Wed Dec 7 15:00:47 2022 UTC. 15:00:47 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 15:00:47 The chair is jwf. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions. 15:00:47 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 15:00:47 The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_council_meeting_-_2022-12-07' 15:00:56 #meetingname council 15:00:56 The meeting name has been set to 'council' 15:01:05 .hello2 15:01:06 dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' 15:01:09 #info About the Council: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/council/ 15:01:15 .hello t0xic0der 15:01:16 #topic Hellos & welcomes 15:01:16 AkashdeepDhar[m]: t0xic0der 'Akashdeep Dhar' 15:01:18 #chair Akashdeep Dhar 15:01:18 Current chairs: Akashdeep Dhar jwf 15:01:33 Howdy Akash, a good night to you :) 15:01:56 Going a bit busy nowadays but all good :) 15:01:56 How are you doing? 15:02:06 hi all. just got done with my class for this morning. give me a minute and I'll be here... 15:02:19 Hey mattdm! 15:02:36 > <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Going a bit busy nowadays but all good :) 15:02:37 > How are you doing? 15:02:37 I can believe it. There seems to be one big rush before the end-of-year slowdown :) 15:02:48 is zodbot working? 15:02:51 .hello2 15:02:52 dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' 15:02:52 mattdm: All good mattdm! 15:02:55 #chair mattdm 15:02:55 Current chairs: Akashdeep Dhar jwf mattdm 15:03:05 Yes, we have a zodbot today :) 15:03:06 jwf: All this rush might just end up making the slowdown a lot more enjoyable I guess ;P 15:03:07 Howdy dcantrell! 15:03:11 #chair dcantrell 15:03:11 Current chairs: Akashdeep Dhar dcantrell jwf mattdm 15:03:19 AkashdeepDhar[m]: That is the hope :D 15:03:38 ok here I am 15:04:13 Super. We have a good quorum for today :) 15:04:24 So, I don't think an explicit agenda was prepped, or if it was, I missed it. 15:04:34 If there isn't one, I have one. I see five tickets that would be nice to speed through today! 15:05:23 #topic News, announcements, & latest happenings 15:05:28 Before we get to the tickets… 15:05:49 Anyone have some Fedora Community news and announcements to share? Or anything interesting happening around the Linux or Open Source worlds? 15:05:57 I have one news to share from the Fedora Websites and Apps Team 15:06:05 Akashdeep Dhar: Go for it! 15:06:19 I think we should make the Flock decision the primary agenda item, and tickets at the end. 15:06:22 Actually two news(es?), now that I think of it... 15:06:32 Hey!! 15:07:00 The Fedora Websites 3.0 efforts are going in full swing and in the coming Fedora Council calls, we should be able to get a sneak peek into all the exciting stuff the team has been up to. 15:07:20 mattdm: Fair—but I also want to collect votes on the election ticket first so we can have that decision in-hand for Ben. 15:07:34 I guess one of those tickets I saw could fit into this announcements block instead too 15:07:41 Howdy Sumantro Mukherjee! 15:07:46 #chair Sumantro Mukherjee 15:07:46 Current chairs: Akashdeep Dhar Mukherjee Sumantro dcantrell jwf mattdm 15:08:04 The Fedora Websites and Apps Community Survey report 2022 is now available. I should schedule it for one of the coming Council video calls as I have a presentation ready about the summary of our discoveries. 15:08:10 Howdy Justin!! 15:08:19 (Yep, that's about it for the news from me) 15:08:35 Hey Sumantro Mukherjee! :D 15:08:36 #info Fedora Websites 3.0 efforts are moving forward. The team proposed a sneak peek to the work in a Council audio/video call in January. 15:08:40 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/425 15:08:50 I don't think we have to collect votes there, but they're welcome :) 15:09:06 Should I open up a ticket to schedule the Community Survey Report presentation? 15:09:35 #info The Fedora Websites and Apps Community Survey report 2022 is now available. Akashdeep Dhar intends to schedule an update for one of a future Council video calls about the summary of the team's discoveries. 15:09:49 Akashdeep Dhar: I think it is a good idea, given we are going into the year-end shutdown and things might get lost. 15:10:04 Sure, that's an action item for myself. 15:10:08 #action Akashdeep Dhar Open a Fedora Council ticket to propose a video meeting update on Fedora W&A Community survey. 15:10:11 Done :D 15:10:15 * AkashdeepDhar[m] adds it to his Trello board 15:11:12 #info The Fedora Sway Spin and Sericea are ready for votes on trademark. We will get feedback from Red Hat Legal about the names so we can avoid any future headaches, but Council input is ready now. 15:11:15 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/424 15:11:26 #action council Vote in issue #424 15:11:50 Akashdeep Dhar: Thanks for sharing updates here! 15:12:03 Anyone else have anything they want to add in? Fedora, Linux, or FOSS-related? 15:12:31 Going once… 15:12:42 Going twice… 15:12:58 Going thrice… 15:13:08 * jwf bangs the gavel 15:13:11 OK. So, tickets! 15:13:27 #topic Ticket discussion 15:13:30 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issues 15:13:43 #topic Ticket #427: Shorten Fedora Council election voting period for F37 cycle 15:13:48 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/427 15:13:57 I don't think this one warrants a ton of discussion, but I wanted to make sure folks saw this. 15:14:11 I meant to vote on that yesterday and did not, but just did now 15:14:21 Because of the challenges with finding a nominee for the open Council seat (which is worthy of a discussion all its own), Ben proposed shortening the voting cycle 15:14:27 All good dcantrell! 15:14:37 I wanted to flag it here so folks could take 2-3 minutes to vote in the ticket 15:15:16 Done :) 15:15:33 And I see comments coming in, sooo… I think that is all the follow-up or discussion needed on this one? 15:15:39 I am torn between "this is a formal thing about membership and authority so it needs the official full consensus" and "if there is only one candidate, there are no other possible outcomes, so it is trivial doesn't really need anything other than 'anyone think this is terrible?'" 15:15:48 Any objections before we pivot to the main topic for today? 15:16:15 but as it is I'm going to call that approved. 15:16:34 mattdm: mattdm: Thinking about some of our docs conversations, it could be an election policy to think about. But I think we can revisit this one, maybe along with some other docs, at the hackfest in February. 15:16:40 mattdm: Yep! 15:16:48 So then, let's get to the main topic here. 15:17:03 #topic Ticket #426: Flock 2023: Finalize dates and venue for our next in-person contributor conference 15:17:11 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/426 15:17:33 First, I want to apologize because this discussion should have started much sooner here than it did, but I promise there are good reasons why it hasn't yet :) 15:18:01 The very complicated piece of the puzzle now is what we learned from Akashdeep Dhar and Sumantro Mukherjee about the huuuuuuge backlog for U.S. visas 15:18:06 From India 15:18:28 I don't have a gauge for how widespread this is across embassies in other countries too (e.g. Brazil, where I know some people would travel from) 15:19:04 But it is certain that we have always brought folks from India to Flock, and unless folks had a U.S. visa already in their passport, we would have to automatically deny any non-visa holder from India coming to Flock 15:19:18 Which… doesn't give me a nice feeling to start with rejections on Day 1. 15:19:33 The timeline challenge here is that we need to get bids ASAP. 15:19:36 We are already behind the ball… 15:19:50 I'd like to get two more cities on our "of interest" list 15:19:50 There is some suggestion that backlogs might get cleared by this summer? 15:20:09 mattdm: Maybe, but even in normal times, if folks are applying for visas in May or June, that is really tight. 15:20:23 Especially given folks in India would have to fly somewhere just to give the interview, give their passport and docs, etc 15:20:41 And then possibly fly back to another city just to pick up the passport 15:21:12 mattdm: There's a catch to it. 15:21:12 The additional recruitments are happening only for the Delhi embassy and not for those of the others in other provinces of the country. 15:21:12 The backlog would get reduced but not reasonably enough for at least, 2023. 15:21:22 jwf: With regards to this, I was thinking to get one more U.S. city, and then one other… somewhere? 15:21:41 But also, to set some context: it's been a long time since we had Flock in the US. We have a lot of contributors and users here. It's definitely time. But, this is a conference for our contributors. We don't want to have it somewhere which excludes another huge chunk of contributors -- India in particular, but other countries as well. 15:21:47 mattdm and I were thinking aloud yesterday about Bratislava or somewhere in Ireland as an alternative. 15:22:15 I also have a new nugget of information that I haven't shared nor explored in detail yet 15:22:18 jwf: A city in European subcontinent maybe? 15:22:46 I'd love to do flock in India someday, but as this is our first one back after travel restrictions have opened, and also Justin's first, doing it somewhere where we've got more experience (that is, US or EU) seems ... prudent. 15:23:51 jwf: I got an offer from help by someone in my team who is a long-time Fedora friend based in Singapore. This is from last night, so it is so recent that I haven't even responded to it yet, but I will float the offer here too: 15:24:01 Bratislava is a) convenient to Brno, where we have a lot of contributors (Red Hatters and otherwise) and b) cheap and c) Schengen zone. It's not, like, a major tourist destination, but I hear that it is charming. 15:24:04 "I'd like to propose looking at Bangkok as an option for Flock. I am told that visas to Thailand for Indian passport holders is easily attainable (and these rules are in constant flux, so it needs to be verified). Of course, I'd like to propose Singapore as a location as well (not because this is the APAC HQ for RH) but, again, I'm told that visas to Singapore for Indian passport holders is easy. Both RH Singapore and RH Thailand can issue an 15:24:04 inviation to attend should that be needed for easier visa applications." 15:24:27 And Ireland also has a lot of Red Hatters and should be relatively cheap for travel and to stay. 15:25:31 So, yeah, this is about where everything is! +1 to mattdm's points about Bratislava and Ireland. 15:25:36 I think Bangkok doesn't meet the "we've got experience on the ground" thing 15:25:42 Ireland also does not require visas for Indian citizens 15:26:12 mattdm: For us, it is true – but the RH OSPO has a presence there. It isn't as strong but it also isn't nothing either. But yeah, I do share that reservation… 15:26:46 dcantrell: dcantrell: Are you sure? I had a good friend living in EU with Schengen visa and Indian passport, but she needed to apply for an Irish visa to go 15:26:49 dcantrell: Yeah -- not Schengen (I learned, thanks Justin) but seems pretty chill with ...the world. 15:27:01 dcantrell: David Cantrell: Checks out, I suppose 15:27:01 https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/india/visas/applying-for-irish-visa/#:~:text=Under%20the%20British%20and%20Irish%20Visa%20Scheme%20(BIVS)%2C%20or%20the%20Short%20Stay%20Visa%20Waiver%20Programme%20(SSVWP)%2C%20Indian%20nationals%20who%20enter%20the%20UK%20as%20a%20visitor%2C%C2%A0may%20be%20able%20to%20travel%20onwards%20to%20Ireland%20%E2%80%93%C2%A0during%20the%20period%20of%20stay%20time%C2%A0granted%20to%20them%20by%20UK% 15:27:01 20Border%20Force%20%E2%80%93%20without%20the%20need%20of%20a%20separate%20Irish%20visa. 15:27:05 I havent been able to go to a Flock since.... /me checks notes Cape Cod 2017 15:27:11 was that the last US one 15:27:15 Yeah. 15:27:46 Yeah. We want you to be able to go. Both in specific and as a symbolic representation of a lot of folks. 15:28:24 Ireland seem like it miiiight be doable, I was tentatively planning a trip.there this summer anyway but on the fence bc of covid 15:28:52 jwf: I am like 25% sure, but google isn't helping me here. do not assume I am correct. everything about visas is endless exceptions 15:28:55 jwf: That said, when she interviewed (from Germany) for the Irish visa, it took a couple weeks. I don't think an interview was required though, but she was applying from Germany and not India 15:29:00 the fact its an island and they have reasonable covid safety measures is 👍 15:29:41 jwf: permanent resident would probably be different, also working there, schooling there, etc. 15:29:42 dcantrell: Correction to that - I think, Indian citizens need not require a separate Irish visa as long as they have the one for UK and are travelling there. 15:30:03 dcantrell: Oh no worries dcantrell… I feel like a good part of this week was thinking we found the perfect answer for Flock, and then getting side-stepped a couple times on this visa business 😆 15:30:05 * AkashdeepDhar[m] further reads into it 15:30:20 (Wow, flights from Boston to Bangkok are more reasonably priced than I thought they might be. ~1700 with one stop. Let's put that in the running for next year?) 15:30:35 Anyways though… I am feeling like Ireland is getting a positive response here. 15:30:57 I don't know whether one city or another makes too much of a difference, but given the small country size, I think our events team can advise us there. 15:31:19 the main office fedorans are in is in waterford, i think the nest there was in the cork office 15:31:32 mattdm: mattdm: Yeah. This was from Harish Pillay for the record. I think it would be a fun idea, so I'll let him know maybe not this year, but another. 15:31:49 dublin is a more international airport so if you wanted to avoid layover to shannon waterford is better placed 15:32:28 I think it would likely either be Dublin or Waterford, or that's my hunch anyways 15:32:40 Says, the person who has never organized a conference before. :P 15:32:47 dublin is $$$ 15:32:59 This is nifty: 15:33:01 #link https://www.passportindex.org/passport/india/ 15:33:08 but waterford is pretty affordable (ive been speccing it out) 15:33:36 jwf: Justin W. Flory (he/him): Thanks for the link 15:33:41 Cool then. Well, maybe we could get two bids for Dublin and Waterford. I would guess getting two Irish bids is easier than getting two bids from two different countries. 15:34:03 Id look at Cork too 15:34:42 Want me to ask my Irish teammates on it? 15:35:04 #info Ireland is a top contender for an alternate bid. Possible cities could be Dublin, Cork, or Waterford. 15:36:13 mizmo: If you can get more intel, especially around an event like Flock (i.e. a couple hundred people and good network connectivity at venue), that would help. I know our events team can help with this, but I was hoping to give them a very specific ask so we could try and get these bids moving before the year-end shutdown. 15:36:26 Máirín Duffy: I think we'll probably mostly rely on Jen Madriaga and the community events team, so while it doesn't hurt (and we could _absolutely_ use help once something is selected) ... it might cause more complication than good to have someone else investigating.... 15:36:41 jwf: Oh, and this is misc++ our meeting lurker 😉 15:36:41 jwf: Karma for misc changed to 2 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 15:37:04 mattdm: Well, that is also fair. 15:37:45 OK, so being mindful of time… I feel good about going back to the team about Ireland. 15:37:51 But are there are other top possible places? 15:37:55 Would we also want to pitch Bratislava? 15:38:07 mattdm: Sure ill leave it then. There was a group that organized the nest in cork tho (some from waterford) so it might be good to involve them 15:38:25 jwf: Let's keep that door open for now, until more puzzle pieces get solved, you know... 15:38:38 mizmo: I will want that help for sure, as the time comes closer and if we do land on Ireland as a final destination :D 15:39:20 Let's see how our Ireland and US options shake out before we throw in Central Europe. 15:39:40 OK. I think that's fair, especially if we are going to ask about a couple of Irish cities 15:39:51 At least though, the visa and immigration story seems much better here 15:40:01 So I feel like we can be confident enough in pitching Ireland on that basis alone 15:40:31 Ugh. All this stuff with visas always ends up being a headache! 15:41:11 I was hoping for a U.S. Flock too, at the start of all this. 15:41:11 So, let me write a #proposed and then take a quick vote for the record 15:41:55 #proposed We will submit a recommendation from the Council to explore Ireland as an alternate location for Flock 2023, instead of the U.S. This may include cities like Dublin, Waterford, and Cork. We will aim to get bids for some Irish cities hopefully by the year-end (but not guaranteed). 15:41:56 +1 15:42:31 +1 15:42:31 +1 15:42:50 #chair 15:42:50 Current chairs: Akashdeep Dhar Mukherjee Sumantro dcantrell jwf mattdm 15:43:04 Although I might say "bid _from_ venues in these cities" rather than "bids for" 15:43:17 (without the emphasis in the final) 15:43:19 OK, conditional +1 with the grammar fix :) 15:43:34 +1 15:44:04 Sumantro Mukherjee? 15:45:01 +1 15:45:08 Excellent 15:45:40 #agreed +5/+0/-0 We will submit a recommendation from the Council to explore Ireland as an alternate location for Flock 2023, instead of the U.S. This may include cities like Dublin, Waterford, and Cork. We will aim to get bids from some Irish cities hopefully by the year-end (but not guaranteed). 15:45:46 Includes the grammar fix :P 15:45:59 OK then! I have some homework to do, but I am going to try and get this moving ASAP. 15:46:06 Thanks folks for the lively discussion here. 15:46:55 I only see one other ticket that is probably worth squeezing in, but happy to take suggestions for others 15:47:02 #topic Ticket #423: 3-day Council hackfest in Jan/Feb 2023 15:47:11 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/423 15:47:31 I don't think there is an action to take here right now, but there is definitely a lot of behind-the-scenes happening on this one. 15:48:09 Generally, I just wanted to know how everyone was doing? I am working with Akashdeep Dhar and Sumantro Mukherjee on their travel, but I wanted to leave time if someone had a question or if there was anything folks were waiting on me for. 15:48:39 I have booked travel for myself 15:48:53 I have also booked travel. 15:49:23 I wasn't able to lock in a hotel as a venue but I have reserved space in the Red Hat Frankfurt office. And honestly, looking at the lead time required for hotel venue bids and the imminent holiday slowdown, I am reluctant that it would work out here. Unless someone else was willing to champion it, because I am overwhelmed on all the travel things right now 15:49:51 I think using space in the office is fine 15:50:02 But I feel like the RH office would be fine, especially for our group size and how close it is to the main rail station… 15:50:06 * jwf nods 15:51:05 But we're not going to sleep in the hotel, right? :) 15:51:20 mattdm: In the office, you mean? 15:51:28 mattdm: Uhh, I don't think the office includes beds 😆 15:51:28 Er, right 15:51:31 Unless you meant the inverse! 15:51:33 yes, not sleep in office. 15:51:34 Heheh 15:51:35 :D 15:51:38 exactly! 15:52:13 Yeah. There are many hotels near both the rail station and the office. 15:52:21 I don't suppose we have enough people to really get a block rate, but I also assume we want to be at the same place. 15:52:32 That is a good point 15:53:46 I reserved at the Hilton Garden Inn Frankfurt City Centre 15:53:52 From Monday to Friday. 15:54:58 #info Plans for the hackfest are moving along, but if you have any questions or need support, now is a good time to ask. Either in the meeting or on Fedora Discussion. For now, we are on target for Frankfurt and have meeting space already reserved. 15:55:21 we were also talking about FOSDEM and I have booked travel for myself for that too. I'll be there first then in Frankfurt 15:55:55 Justin, will you pay directly for the hotel rooms or should people book and apply for reimbursement? 15:56:06 dcantrell: Likewise! I think this is the plan for many of us too, but not all. 15:56:29 dcantrell: Same here. 15:56:38 mattdm: Good question, and my preference would be to pay on-site. It makes my expensing work much easier later on. 15:56:56 I could pay when folks arrive for check-in at their hotel. 15:57:03 Ok. In that case, is it easier for you to make all of the reservations? 15:57:21 mattdm: I guess that would make sense, huh? 15:57:33 Not trying to create more work for you :) 15:57:37 Well, some folks are already reserved. But I think I can workshop this piece. 15:57:42 In fact trying to make it simpler for you later :) 15:57:56 The benefit here is that at least we have more time and flexibility on hotels than flights 15:58:38 #action jwf Work on reserving a group of hotel rooms for the Council hackfest for anyone who does not prefer to keep their own reservation 15:58:52 OK! I think I have all I need here then 15:59:05 One action is enough 😆 (and we are a minute until time) 15:59:16 #topic Open floor 15:59:21 jflory7++ 15:59:21 mattdm: Karma for jflory7 changed to 3 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 15:59:35 Just saving room for any last urgent topics? I know folks might have places to be after this :) 16:00:16 I wanted to ACK Máirín Duffy on the W&A session in January, that Akashdeep Dhar also repped at the very beginning. I'm looking forward to that :) 16:00:21 But, no other business from me! 16:00:33 Any and all final topics, going once… 16:00:43 Going twice… 16:00:58 Going thrice… 16:01:10 * jwf gavels us out! 16:01:14 Thanks folks for being here! 16:01:28 thanks jwf++ 16:01:30 If we don't see you before the year-end, I hope you all have a wonderful December and get some time to rest and recharge 16:01:33 You are all doing great things! 16:01:41 Have a great rest of your morning/afternoon/nights 16:01:43 #endmeeting