15:00:01 #startmeeting Council (2023-03-01) 15:00:01 Meeting started Wed Mar 1 15:00:01 2023 UTC. 15:00:01 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 15:00:01 The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions. 15:00:01 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 15:00:01 The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2023-03-01)' 15:00:11 .hello t0xic0der 15:00:13 t0xic0der: t0xic0der 'Akashdeep Dhar' 15:00:17 ooh, so close 15:00:20 #meetingname council 15:00:20 The meeting name has been set to 'council' 15:00:24 #chair dcantrell siddharthvipul1 jwf bookwar mattdm bcotton sumantrom bt0 t0xic0der 15:00:24 Current chairs: bcotton bt0 dcantrell siddharthvipul1 jwf bookwar mattdm bcotton sumantrom t0xic0der 15:00:30 #topic Introductions, Welcomes 15:00:43 Hello, everyone, and welcome to meteorological spring in the northern hemisphere 15:00:46 .hello2 15:00:47 dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' 15:01:25 A spike in humidity here in places near the equator 15:02:22 * jwf waves 15:02:22 I read that as "a spike in humanity" and clearly I did not make enough coffee this morning 15:02:24 Welcome to March 15:02:33 A spike of humanity would be nice, not gonna lie 15:02:44 hi all 15:03:08 sorry i'm late busy being annoyed at RH internal slack for not being willing to update the wrong fedora logo emoji they have 15:03:33 that's it. they don't get to use Fedora Linux for CSB then 15:04:00 .hello siddharthvipul1 15:04:01 * SumantroMukherje is here 15:04:01 VipulSiddharth[m: siddharthvipul1 'Vipul Siddharth' 15:04:29 It's a party 🎉 15:04:31 bcotton: Come on now. Give them an older release but give em something ;P 15:04:39 Ah, I forgot Element does that :P 15:06:11 okay, let's get this party started 15:06:15 #topic Today's agenda 15:06:15 #info Reminders 15:06:15 #info CName and SSL cert for component-registry.fedoraproject.org 15:06:19 #info Mindshare representative status 15:06:19 #info Open ticket review 15:06:19 #info Your topics here! 15:06:25 #topic Reminders 15:06:29 #help Please fill out the WhenIsGood for the new Council meeting time 15:06:29 #link https://whenisgood.net/nnqghp7 15:06:29 #info Only 5 responses so far! 15:06:58 If you don't tell me when a good time for you is, I will tell you what a good time for you is :-) 15:07:10 #help Please participate in the Strategy2028 discussions 15:07:10 #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/tag/strategy2028 15:07:23 mattdm: did you want to say more about the strategy posts or is this enough? 15:07:39 i have a little bit :) 15:07:59 the next "focus area review" post is coming out later today 15:08:05 (almost ready0 15:08:19 it's actually 4 posts -- one for the overall focus area, one for each objective 15:08:32 this is "reaching the world" -- preinstalled systems, cloud/ci, and global communities 15:08:40 It definitely feels a bit like a grab-bag :) 15:09:02 Aleksandra Fedorova: I'd appreciate in particular if you could reply when that comes out and expand on the CI point 15:09:45 I'm actually a little bit disposed towards merging cloud/ci back with preisntalled hardware, and adding an onboarding experience objective 15:09:46 which I know Justin W. Flory (he/him) is interested in too.... 15:09:53 so here's the place to do -- or not do -- that :) 15:11:07 EOF? 15:11:29 EOM 15:11:40 any other reminders before we move on? 15:12:01 To myself: I hope to get the future ones of these scheduled to run on mondays 15:12:17 Next ones should be easier because they all kind of follow a template 15:12:19 Umm about the next meeting being a call and about the Fedora Websites and Apps Community Survey results? 15:12:38 that's at the end :-) 15:13:13 Alrighty then. Nothing else I gues 15:13:17 #topic CName and SSL cert for component-registry.fedoraproject.org 15:13:17 #link https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/11143 15:13:42 this was a last-night addition, so i haven't had a chance to read it in detail yet 15:14:13 * jwf clicks 15:15:19 uh, yeah, I should explain :) 15:15:25 please do 15:15:34 This is a service that generates SBOMs -- "software bill of materials" 15:15:54 this is hot %$%#% in the software supply chain ... world? ... yes, world 15:16:24 Red Hat is working on a thing -- a service. They would like to try upstream-firsting their service. I said that sounds like a great idea. 15:16:37 (It will be all open source.) 15:17:35 I probably jumped the gun in saying "cool, yes let's do that" 15:18:17 But candidly it's so hard to get people to do the right thing here (in the face of whatever business pressures they have) that I was very excited to have someone show up eager to Just Do It 15:18:23 I'm wondering what the deliverable is for this? Like what is the consumable object at the end? RPMs? Containers? I'm trying to understand what this looks like for the community and who would use it? 15:18:40 the "and Openstack RDO" in the ticket makes me think this is not a Fedora thing 15:18:44 also what Justin said 15:18:51 mattdm: for things like this, there is a strong business push to do the thing quickly for the customer and then figure out the open source part later since that always feels "hard" for some people 15:19:17 dcantrell: yes exactly 15:19:20 https://github.com/RedHatProductSecurity/component-registry/blob/main/docs/user_guide.md 15:19:57 I really wish we could come up with better communication in general that helps people understand "open source first" really should be at the start of any new project, not something you bolt on later. But here we are. 15:20:03 The consumable object is a big ol' bunch of json 15:20:12 nom nom nom json 15:20:25 dcantrell: yes. This is better than most 15:20:46 mention of json makes me feel obligated to spread information about DSON: https://dogeon.xyz/ 15:20:51 everyone should be using this in place of JSON 15:21:14 so none of this conversation tells me why this should be on the fedoraproject dot org domain 15:21:16 support exists in Fedora as libcdson...and rpminspect supports Doge-compatible config files, thus making it more dog friendly 15:21:50 mattdm: Sort of seems like… Anitya? 15:22:41 Justin W. Flory (he/him): This is about what goes _into_ each thing. it's like a reverse PDC :) 15:22:50 Ben Cotton (he/him): give me a sec here 15:23:25 mattdm: So, seeing some-nodejs-library@v1.33.7 is in Fedora 36, Fedora 37, Rawhide, EPEL 9, CentOS Stream 9, etc? 15:24:10 I don't think it's revealing any company secrets to say: Red Hat is working to change from being a "here's the bits, pay us for them" company to a "there are a bunch of bits of various types, and we provide incredibly valuable services around them" company. 15:24:30 (Context for Anitya for the unaware: https://release-monitoring.org/ ) 15:24:31 (jwf wait plz) 15:24:38 honestly, that's sort of the next evolutionary step for a company like us 15:25:07 In the current world, Fedora is pretty firmly and comfortably ensconced in the critical path. yay us -- we have influence and get attention and resources. 15:25:08 I, for one, welcome these various bunch of bits 15:25:20 wait, you guys get resources? 15:25:28 Also, Red Hat wants to continue to do whatever Red Hat does in an open source, upstream first way. 15:25:38 That's being made up as we go along. 15:26:09 There is no automatic reason Fedora ends up important at all in that future. 15:26:49 But we're actually set up pretty well for it -- we have the same needs 15:27:06 and to what dcantrell says, it could be a next evolutionary step for a _project_ like us 15:27:22 indeed 15:27:47 I guess the short version is: I want to be the project that says 'yes' here, when people come to us wanting to try stuff out. 15:28:01 we could put them on some other domain (fedorainfracloud or whatever?) 15:28:24 That makes sense. But what is "community data" vs. Red Hat data in the context of the original ask? 15:28:24 but... I don't think that does anything except make us feel more distant 15:28:25 what I'm still not understanding is the "what are we trying out?" part 15:28:47 > "This project is funded by Red Hat, and is already deployed within the Red Hat firewall. However we also have an agreement with Matt Miller that we will be able to use the fedoraproject.org domain to host community data outside of the Red Hat firewall." 15:28:50 ben -- you mean, what the service is? 15:28:53 That is the part I want to better understand 15:29:06 Also, s/Matt/Matthew :P 15:29:26 yes, to the question justin asked earlier: who is going to use this? how? Why? 15:29:27 there is an internal, business, RH-data version of this service. for RHEL. 15:29:43 they want to run a community version equivalent 15:30:15 I think it's ok if Fedora doesn't have a direct use for it right now, it's more this is a community where this upstream work should exist 15:30:32 I think "do you have the sboms" is shortly going to be table stakes for a distro. so _we_ can use that. 15:30:35 +1 dcantrell 15:31:11 if Fedora does not do this, it can lead to other fractured upstream communities that seem weird and unusual when placed next to Fedora 15:31:17 e.g., ansible, jboss.... 15:31:36 (i.e., fractured from Fedora....Fedora being the umbrella for upstream work) 15:32:16 my thinking is: let's get it there, and then we can work to get it integrated with community processes, contribution, operate first, etc. 15:32:45 the alternative is to demand a bunch of things first, and then hope that they don't walk away 15:32:45 Not to get too much into the Red Hat end of things in what is a Fedora meeting, but I also know "community version" is a loaded term at Red Hat. I am all for people trying and building things upstream and working inside Fedora, but I also want to make sure someone isn't engineering an application that isn't actually useful for your average developers or OSPOs or whoever the target audience is for this. Whatever is coming into Fedora shouldn't 15:32:45 just be random bits but also useful bits. I'm not saying this is specific thing is or isn't, but I want to make sure there is value for the Fedora community, and that the Fedora community isn't an afterthought. 15:33:00 * Not to get too much into the Red Hat end of things in what is a Fedora meeting, but I also know "community version" is a loaded term at Red Hat. I am all for people trying and building things upstream and working inside Fedora, but I also want to make sure someone isn't engineering an application that isn't actually useful for your average developers or OSPOs or whoever the target audience is for this. Whatever is coming into Fedora shouldn't 15:33:00 just be random bits but also useful bits. I'm not saying this specific thing is or isn't useful, but I want to make sure there is value for the Fedora community, and that the Fedora community isn't an afterthought. 15:33:31 i still don't understand what you're trying to tell me. it seems like a lot of vague words with no actual substance. but basically the only thing they're asking of us is for a DNS entry so sure, i don't care. if Infra is okay with it, then I'm okay with it 15:33:58 Justin W. Flory (he/him): I think this will be useful and I think the people working on it _want_ it to be useful 15:34:00 I'm basically in the same spot as Ben here 15:34:12 Ben Cotton (he/him): I will take that 0 vote for now and we can talk more later 15:34:18 anyone -1? 15:34:27 I'm +1 15:34:31 mattdm: I'm willing to trust your feeling that there is a genuine willingness to work upstream and try to do things right. 15:34:35 +1 15:34:36 (i am also +1) 15:34:41 thanks Justin :) 15:35:49 My feedback is I don't want there to be some half-baked "community" thing that nobody wants to touch (and tied to our Fedora brand) while there is some butt-kicking, amazing RHEL-centered version that is only available to Red Hat customers 15:36:08 As long as Fedora can get a butt-kicking, amazing Fedora-centered thing, I'm in 15:37:04 yeah. I'll relay that back. 15:37:11 I guess I am +0.5? Which rounds up to +1 :P 15:37:25 cool. next agenda item? 15:37:29 okay, are we ready to move on? 15:37:43 👍️ 15:38:31 #topic Mindshare representative status 15:38:32 the other thing mattdm added 15:38:54 actually, wait 15:38:55 #undo 15:38:55 Removing item from minutes: 15:38:57 Psychhhhh 15:39:11 #agreed There are no objections to the cname request so long as Infra is okay with it 15:39:14 okay, now! 15:39:16 #topic Mindshare representative status 15:39:18 let's try this again 15:39:18 :) 15:39:41 as I understand from the Council F2F, Alberto is stepping back from the role. 15:40:07 bt0dotninja++ times one thousand 15:40:07 jwf: Karma for bt0dotninja changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 15:40:45 bt0dotninja++ 15:41:29 is there....record of this somewhere? I don't see a mindshare ticket about it and he's still on the docs as a Mindshare Committee member 15:42:08 (i took away the same understanding from the F2F, but we seem to be in a Schrödinger's Representative state at the moment) 15:42:30 I guess that is on me for due diligence with Mindshare 15:42:56 I have about 15 tabs of follow-ups from yesterday's Mindshare meeting, so I can follow up and make a ticket to track this 15:43:07 I also don't know if it was mentioned other than the CommOps Pagure tracker 15:43:30 #link https://pagure.io/fedora-commops/issue/305 15:44:02 This should also be a Mindshare ticket most probably 15:44:02 we should have either something from Alberto or from Mindshare officially... 15:44:02 yeah. 15:45:01 I guess I'm not sure what the action for the Council is here. Mindshare decides their rep, so unless we want to formally vote Alberto off the island, what's there for us to do? 15:45:10 I'm not sure if this is anything more than #action jwf to do my job or if there is more? 15:45:54 I think #action jwf is fine for now... escalate if nothing happens... 15:46:10 because we do need an active Mindshare rep 15:46:11 * jwf wonders what escalation looks like 🙂 15:46:15 Yeah, it is definitely a priority 15:46:31 For deeper context, I want to have more 1:1 time with each Mindshare Committee member 15:46:42 And better understand some of these team health challenges that are there now 15:46:54 I can't promise it will be fast, but it is something important and a priority for me 15:47:20 For the record here, "Mindshare rep" (as we discussed at the Council F2F) isn't just "representing the mindshare commitee" but should have a bigger role covering the non-engineering parts of the project as a whole (which we call "mindshare" for lack of a better term honestly) 15:47:22 The last couple weeks, I have mostly been in 2022 emails from things that fell off my list and then also trying to get things ready for SCaLE next week which I forgot about and our event box is missing… 15:47:27 (tempted to #info that.) 15:48:00 use #info liberally, plz 15:48:05 jwf: To say, I haven't given the Mindshare stuff my full focus since coming back from Frankfurt, but I really do intend to make space for that in March. It needs to happen 🤷 15:48:15 #info For the record here, "Mindshare rep" (as we discussed at the Council F2F) isn't just "representing the mindshare commitee" but should have a bigger role covering the non-engineering parts of the project as a whole (which we call "mindshare" for lack of a better term honestly) 15:49:28 Does scott williams have the event box? maybe! :) 15:50:07 mattdm: The common denominator here is that it is _most likely_ in California—but this is off-topic for the meeting :P 15:50:25 I think we can move to the next topic along with an action for me to update docs / make a Mindshare ticket for the Council rpe 15:50:28 * rep 15:50:58 #action jflory7 to Make a Mindshare ticket for a new Council rep and update docs 15:51:15 👍️ 15:51:49 i don't think we have time to go through tickets in a meaningful way at this point, so next time! 15:52:01 #topic Next meeting 15:52:01 #info The next regular business meeting is Wednesday 15 March, unless we settle on a new schedule before then 15:52:36 YmBQPoqbc7Cwwri1NkXB 15:52:40 I, for one, will be in spain. 15:52:49 #info The next video meeting is Wednesday 8 March, featuring Akashdeep Dhar talking about the Web & Apps community survey results 15:52:49 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Council/Video_Meetings 15:52:50 #topic Do we have anything to announce? 15:52:50 #info This is a regular check to make sure we're communicating to the contributor (via CommBlog) and user (via Magazine) communities 15:53:37 there is the readout from the f2f, yeah? 15:53:45 The FCAIC -> FCA CommBlog article is finally coming tomorrow. 15:53:53 mattdm: This too 15:54:14 justin do you have new badge designs in the works? :) 15:54:31 #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2023-02-28/council.2023-02-28-21.05.html 15:54:37 mattdm: https://pagure.io/fedora-badges/issue/894 15:54:57 #info A Community Blog post about the Hackfest is in the works 15:55:02 is there anything we don't have planned that needs announcement? 15:55:03 bcotton: Is this you Ben Cotton (he/him)? 15:55:20 only unknown unknowns 15:55:42 excellent 15:55:55 anything else before we #endmeeting? 15:56:19 mattdm: Maybe not now, but after some time, a CommBlog post to summarize where we are with the strategy discussions would be nice… there has been a lot of output from the hackfest, and I suspect I wouldn't be the only one who feels this way 15:56:29 But maybe after a month more of getting feedback in Discussion? 15:56:42 bcotton: Not really but I think Akashdeep Dhar had some topics? 15:56:46 #info The commblog about our participation in FOSDEM is now in review and will be published shortly 15:56:50 * Not really from me but I 15:56:55 yeah, I think another commblog post when we get to the next planning phase 15:57:07 jwf: Ah, the one that Ben Cotton (he/him) mentioned of 15:57:17 About the next meeting being about the Websites and Apps Community Survey results 15:57:23 bcotton: bcotton++ 15:57:23 jwf: Karma for bcotton changed to 4 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 15:57:40 AkashdeepDhar[m]: t0xic0der++ 15:57:40 jwf: Karma for t0xic0der changed to 2 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 15:57:47 Let the cookies rain 15:58:06 bcotton++ 15:58:06 t0xic0der: Karma for bcotton changed to 5 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 15:58:10 alrighty, sounds like we're done here 15:58:12 thanks everyone 15:58:19 Thanks for chairing Ben! 15:58:24 #endmeeting