17:00:10 <mhayden> #startmeeting FESCO (2023-05-02)
17:00:10 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue May  2 17:00:10 2023 UTC.
17:00:10 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:00:10 <zodbot> The chair is mhayden. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
17:00:10 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:10 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2023-05-02)'
17:00:10 <sgallagh> Nee, thirds!
17:00:15 <mhayden> #meetingname fesco
17:00:15 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
17:00:27 <mhayden> #chair nirik, decathorpe, zbyszek, sgallagh, mhroncok, dcantrell, music, mhayden, Conan_Kudo, Pharaoh_Atem, Son_Goku, King_InuYasha, Sir_Gallantmon, Eighth_Doctor
17:00:27 <zodbot> Current chairs: Conan_Kudo Eighth_Doctor King_InuYasha Pharaoh_Atem Sir_Gallantmon Son_Goku dcantrell decathorpe mhayden mhroncok music nirik sgallagh zbyszek
17:00:27 <mhayden> #topic init process
17:00:29 <sgallagh> .hi
17:00:30 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
17:00:38 <mhayden> .hello2
17:00:39 <zodbot> mhayden: mhayden 'Major Hayden' <mhayden@redhat.com>
17:00:51 <zbyszek[m]> .hello zbyszek
17:00:52 <zodbot> zbyszek[m]: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' <zbyszek@in.waw.pl>
17:01:00 <mhayden> oh man, i got my matrix/irc thing working properly and .hello2 works 🎉
17:01:03 <bkm> hi fed500
17:01:10 <Eighth_Doctor> .hello2
17:01:11 <zodbot> Eighth_Doctor: Sorry, but user 'Eighth_Doctor' does not exist
17:01:17 <Eighth_Doctor> .hello ngompa
17:01:18 <zodbot> Eighth_Doctor: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
17:02:05 <mhayden> Conan Kudo: i can help with your matrix/irc name sync stuff later if you're interested (if your problem is the same as mine)
17:02:05 <nirik> morning
17:02:15 <bkm> .hello fed500
17:02:16 <zodbot> bkm: fed500 'None' <benson_muite@emailplus.org>
17:02:25 <neil> .hi
17:02:26 <zodbot> neil: neil 'Neil Hanlon' <neil@shrug.pw>
17:02:38 <decathorpe> .hi
17:02:39 <zodbot> decathorpe: decathorpe 'Fabio Valentini' <decathorpe@gmail.com>
17:03:09 <mhayden> i think we have quorum now if i counted properly, but i'll give it another minute
17:03:26 <mhayden> some fun home repairs happening today so my brain is scattered
17:03:50 <sgallagh> Must be nice to have an excuse...
17:04:06 <smooge> sgallagh: you have kids
17:04:25 <smooge> that is your goto excuse til they are 50
17:04:37 * neil is waiting to hear from his realtor about a bid on a house ..
17:04:46 <music[m]> .hello music
17:04:47 <zodbot> music[m]: music 'Benjamin Beasley' <code@musicinmybrain.net>
17:04:53 <mhayden> sending good luck your way, neil
17:05:01 <neil> thanks mhayden.. we need it lol
17:05:07 <mhayden> okay, y'all, let's get this party started
17:05:17 <mhayden> #topic #2984 Change: Remove webkit2gtk-4.0 API Version
17:05:27 <mhayden> .fesco 2984
17:05:28 <zodbot> mhayden: Issue #2984: Change: Remove webkit2gtk-4.0 API Version - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2984
17:05:46 <mhayden> this one might not be a big deal, but i added it since it touches some important packages
17:06:06 <mhayden> if it's not a big concern, we can vote/ask questions in the ticket and move on with the meeting
17:06:58 <mhayden> kudos to Michael Catanzaro for explaining the change well in the proposal 👏
17:07:00 <sgallagh> Eh, nobody cares about Emacs anyway...
17:07:03 <mhayden> Michael Catanzaro++
17:07:12 <decathorpe> well, packages have either 1. already been ported to the new API, 2. have already been fixed, or 3. were already removed since they used libsoup-2.4 ...
17:07:15 <MichaelCatanzaro> .hello catanzaro
17:07:16 <zodbot> MichaelCatanzaro: catanzaro 'Michael Catanzaro' <mcatanzaro@redhat.com>
17:07:22 <nirik> in ticket should be fine IMHO. I guess this means the end for midori. oh well.
17:07:36 <MichaelCatanzaro> nirik: No not really
17:07:43 <MichaelCatanzaro> Our Midori is different from upstream Midori
17:07:57 <MichaelCatanzaro> We have an old version; the new one is another Chromium reskin
17:07:57 <nirik> no?
17:08:07 <nirik> The "new" one... is also old.
17:08:17 * sgallagh is not thrilled with the new browser monoculture...
17:08:19 <nirik> do you have a link for the chromium one?
17:08:31 <music[m]> decathorpe: libsoup2 was not retired: https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/libsoup
17:08:40 <music[m]> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/libsoup_3:_Part_Two
17:08:55 <decathorpe> it wasn't, but any packages that pull in both libsoup-3 and libsoup-2.4 via their dependency tree are b0rked
17:09:17 <MichaelCatanzaro> nirik: https://github.com/midori-browser/core/commits/master, no commits in 3 years, I guess the "new" one is indeed also old... alas
17:10:05 <nirik> yep. Thats not a chromium thing tho...
17:10:15 <MichaelCatanzaro> nirik: Indeed, it uses WebKitGTK O_O
17:10:16 <nirik> anyhow, thats a side track. ;)
17:10:18 <MichaelCatanzaro> What do I know, then. Huh.
17:10:46 * nirik is the maintainer of the fedora midori packages. ;) It was cool back in the day...
17:12:00 <mhayden> do we have any concerns on the proposal that aren't addressed yet? or actions?
17:13:31 * nirik doesn't.
17:14:13 <mhayden> alrighty. i guess we can move on here. if folks can have a look through the ticket and vote / ask questions, that would be great 👍
17:14:13 <decathorpe> nope. just general "meh, if necessary, fine"
17:14:28 <music[m]> There are some other packages in the “intersection” list that I recognize as ”significant,” with large user bases and/or active upstreams, e.g. exaile, quodlibet/exfalso, gthumb. I wish I knew how gnarly their path to staying in the distribution was. In some cases it might just be that the spec file is out of date. But we need to keep chipping away at the libsoup2 transition, so we can’t just keep everything around
17:14:28 <music[m]> indefinitely either.
17:14:30 <mhayden> thanks for the proposal Michael Catanzaro
17:15:01 <mhayden> next item up...
17:15:06 <mhayden> #topic #2982 Create an email list policy
17:15:09 <mhayden> .fesco 2982
17:15:10 <zodbot> mhayden: Issue #2982: Create an email list policy - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2982
17:15:15 * mhayden slowly backs away 😄
17:15:28 * nirik adds a shot to his coffee.
17:15:29 <bkm> Difficult topic
17:15:41 <mhayden> Stephen Gallagher made a good point to focus on the change being requested here
17:15:47 <bkm> PRobably dead list policy seems reasonable to start with
17:16:14 <nirik> so, I'll start by saying fesco should not make such a policy for all lists. If they want to for the technical side of things, ok...
17:16:27 <mhayden> I've heard rumblings that this is a Council responsibility rather than a FESCo one
17:16:36 <sgallagh> mhayden: I think you're conflating two issues, one that hasn't had a formal request made to FESCo yet
17:16:48 <nirik> it has actually. see the next ticket.
17:16:54 <sgallagh> Ah, sorry.
17:17:06 <mhayden> sgallagh: totally possible that i am getting it backwards
17:17:11 <bkm> Ok for council to consider it
17:17:20 <nirik> IMHO we should close this one, and focus on https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2989
17:17:24 <sgallagh> Regarding the mailing list policy, I propose "Any list that hasn't seen a message for the last four Fedora release cycles will be archived"
17:17:26 <bkm> Though good to separate from Discourse discussion
17:17:42 <decathorpe> if making a "Inactive Mailing List Policy" is Council territory then I'd say let's close this as NOTOURBUSINESS
17:17:49 <bkm> Proposal on archiving seems reasonable to me
17:17:53 <sgallagh> But yeah, that could well be COuncil territory
17:18:32 <zbyszek[m]> I don't think it's council territory any more than it is ours. Are council members somehow experts on dead mail lists?
17:18:40 <sgallagh> I'll take the AI to open a Council ticket for discussing a list retirement policy.
17:18:46 <bkm> Can investigate and send to council. Probably infra will need to give input
17:18:57 <zbyszek[m]> > "Any list that hasn't seen a message for the last four Fedora release cycles will be archived"
17:18:57 <zbyszek[m]> Sounds reasonable.
17:19:01 <nirik> well, a number of lists fall under mindshare...
17:19:01 <mhayden> #action Stephen Gallagher to open a Council ticket to discuss a list retirement policy
17:19:01 <sgallagh> zbyszek: Council == strategic stuff, FESCo = tactical stuff
17:19:06 <mhayden> thank you, Stephen Gallagher
17:19:06 <nirik> why is fesco deciding what happens to them?
17:19:25 <sgallagh> s/=/==/
17:19:28 <Eighth_Doctor> I'm not a fan of the idea of using Discussion for Change discussion
17:19:33 <Eighth_Doctor> but if there are teams that want to shift their discussion from lists to forums, that's their prerogative
17:19:44 <mhayden> but yes, we must separate "your mailing list is dormant and needs to be deleted" and "let's go to discourse" 😉
17:20:11 <nirik> to be clear, I am fine with closing inactive lists... although it's work infra has to do, while just ignoring them is no work.
17:20:12 <zbyszek[m]> Conan Kudo: that's a separate topic. Let's discuss the topic at hand.
17:20:16 <Eighth_Doctor> well, we don't need to delete lists, we just close them
17:20:36 <Eighth_Doctor> and we probably shouldn't delete lists since they can contain historical context
17:20:46 <bkm> archive not delete
17:20:48 <mhayden> right, Conan Kudo -- i used the wrong words earlier
17:20:59 <smooge> ignoring them is still work. I have spent a lot of time 'cleaning' the ignored ones
17:21:02 <nirik> we don't. But 'closing' them means having to set a bunch of things in mailman that are anoying.
17:21:30 <music[m]> mhayden: Regardless of whose decision it is, I think the dormant-list idea is the only part of https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2982 that isn’t premature at this point.
17:21:37 <decathorpe> does marking a mailing list as "closed" at least reduce the time spent on triaging held messages?
17:21:47 <mhayden> music: agreed
17:22:00 <zbyszek[m]> nirik, smooge: so this is actually important. Is it less work to keep the list or to close it?
17:22:07 <nirik> well... it depends.
17:22:23 <nirik> held messages go to the list owners/moderators.
17:22:43 <nirik> I am not convinced we have any left that moderate non subscribed emails, but I suppsoe we might
17:22:53 <smooge> we do not.
17:23:07 <nirik> IMHO it's less work to just leave it alone...
17:23:14 <smooge> most of the people I contacted about non-subscribed email told me that they had set up filters to go to trash a long time ago
17:23:21 <nirik> but if everyone wants things 'closed' we can do it, it's just more work
17:23:27 * nirik nods
17:23:31 <bkm> Can it be automated?
17:23:57 <nirik> sure. But someone has to make the scripting.
17:24:01 <smooge> so a lot of the issues to make it easier to do any of these things requires mailman3, hyperkitty and other tools updated
17:24:40 <music[m]> My view (again, perhaps not my decision) is that the only reason to close/archive inactive lists is if the people maintaining the mailing lists say it will reduce maintenance burden.
17:24:44 <nirik> which is underway still... and may finish. In fact it's all in fedora now, we could look at that.
17:26:13 <Eighth_Doctor> indeed
17:26:19 <smooge> but otherwise I agree with nirik. It is a lot of work with limited resources which will require a lot of dedicated focus to accomplish
17:26:27 <nirik> I'm not sure what else to say here... or what fesco would like to do.
17:26:57 <bkm> Ok. Fine to leave as is, and revisit once Discourse discussion is done if needed.
17:27:13 <zbyszek[m]> I don't think that inactive lists matter for users. We have a hundred somewhat active lists anyway, so users have to use search anyway, so the extra 580 inactive lists don't make much of a difference.
17:27:23 <bkm> The issue was raised thera are may inactive lists
17:27:26 <salimma> .hi
17:27:27 <zodbot> salimma: salimma 'Michel Alexandre Salim' <michel@michel-slm.name>
17:27:54 <Eighth_Doctor> hey Michel Alexandre Salim 🎩
17:27:56 <mhayden> how about i update the ticket to say Stephen Gallagher will bring it up with Council (the inactive mailing list part) and that a move to Discourse really isn't a choice for us to make?
17:28:10 <salimma> as someone who admins a couple of inactive lists, I would not mind shifting them to Discourse. maybe let list owners opt in
17:28:31 <salimma> IIRC SIGs used to be required to have lists, right?
17:28:37 <Eighth_Doctor> yes
17:28:46 <Eighth_Doctor> though I think SIGs have generally not requested them as of late
17:28:47 <nirik> packager sigs MUST have lists... and do.
17:28:59 <nirik> you 100% need somewhere to cc bugs. :)
17:29:08 <Eighth_Doctor> right
17:29:16 <Eighth_Doctor> that's why both the asahi and budgie sigs have them
17:29:20 <salimma> can that work with Discourse? that will be interesting
17:29:36 <nirik> Possibly... but not sure yet.
17:30:02 <nirik> I guess... I would say we should let things progress and see where we are down the road...
17:30:48 <salimma> nirik++
17:30:54 <nirik> if we want the council to weigh in on inactive lists, sure, ok...
17:31:56 <Eighth_Doctor> Michel Alexandre Salim 🎩: you and I should sync up on the steps left to get mm3 stack into epel9
17:32:01 <Eighth_Doctor> since I think everything is now in Rawhide
17:32:21 <nirik> I think epel9 just needs django?
17:32:22 <salimma> yeah, let's take that offline after this meeting
17:32:35 <salimma> it's mostly django related IIRC
17:32:42 <music[m]> nirik: I don’t, particularly. But if somebody thinks it’s important, especially if there is a concrete benefit to doing something about them, fine. Otherwise I’d rather see people spend time on things that are directly helpful.
17:32:57 <mhayden> okay, i feel like we've talked through the mailing list ticket pretty well thus far ;)
17:33:08 <salimma> mailman3 still needs unretiring, I think it builds fine now but it is quite hairy, so if Conan Kudo can update that I'd feel more comfortable with it
17:33:19 <Eighth_Doctor> Michel Alexandre Salim 🎩: sure, let's sync and get that done
17:33:29 <Eighth_Doctor> I think mm3 package itself is actually in a weird releng state right now
17:33:36 <Eighth_Doctor> which is why I haven't fixed it before
17:33:48 * nirik happy to help sort it out of band too
17:34:08 <mhayden> #action mhayden to update #2982 with some updates from this meeting
17:34:16 <zbyszek[m]> For housekeeping, I think we should close the ticket as "not desired, at least for now". That seems be the outcome of the discussion here.
17:34:28 <mhayden> agreed
17:34:30 <Eighth_Doctor> +1
17:34:36 <music[m]> +1
17:34:38 <nirik> 1
17:34:42 <nirik> +
17:34:56 <bkm> Ok
17:34:56 <sgallagh> +1
17:34:59 <nirik> nice... markdown + for the win. ;) +1
17:35:04 <decathorpe> +1
17:35:12 <mhayden> nirik: very creative
17:35:18 <mhayden> okay, moving right along...
17:35:26 <mhayden> #topic Next week's chair 🪑
17:35:58 <nirik> So, did we want to discuss https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2989 ? or did it come in too late and we should punt to next week?
17:36:10 <mhayden> anyone want to chair next week's meeting?
17:36:18 <mhayden> nirik: oh, open floor still coming up
17:37:15 <Eighth_Doctor> punt
17:37:16 <Eighth_Doctor> I don't really want to talk about it right now
17:37:43 <zbyszek[m]> I can do it. I don't have anything too much on fire next week.
17:37:54 <mhayden> zbyszek: thank you much
17:38:07 <mhayden> #action zbyszek to chair the next meeting 🪑
17:38:12 <music[m]> zbyszek++
17:38:15 <mhayden> #topic Open Floor
17:38:27 <mhayden> nirik: want to bring up 2989?
17:38:28 <mhayden> .fesco 2989
17:38:29 <zodbot> mhayden: Issue #2989: Proposal to adjust Changes Policy to use Fedora Discussion instead of the devel list - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2989
17:38:30 * nirik is fine with punt too... as treebeard says "don't be hasty!"
17:38:57 <decathorpe> punt +1
17:39:00 <nirik> I am curious what the general thought is... but we can punt to next week, thats fine with me
17:39:05 <Eighth_Doctor> punt +100
17:39:40 <decathorpe> just vote with all your IRC nicks ;)
17:39:40 <Eighth_Doctor> nirik: I don't personally want to do it, I think the way forums work make it unappealing for that discussion
17:39:42 <mhayden> 🙀
17:39:42 * zbyszek[m] wonders if we're waiting for any new information, because otherwise the punt is not useful.
17:40:14 <sgallagh> I'm -1 to making any changes in the immediate future until the loss of the Fedora PgM has time to settle
17:40:17 <Eighth_Doctor> and some of the "features" of discourse make it even more unattractive for long discussions
17:40:22 <decathorpe> zbyszek: I think "I cannot productively discuss this right now" is a valid reason to punt to be honest
17:40:26 <nirik> I'm fine to try it out with Changes discussion... I'm happy to help anyone who wants to interact with it via email (I have been doing this for a while). If it doesn't work out, we can go back.
17:40:51 <nirik> yeah. Agree with everyone there. ;)
17:40:51 <zbyszek[m]> Now Neal started a discussion…
17:41:27 <Eighth_Doctor> but honestly, the number one reason I don't want to do it is because Discourse allows mod/site side topic splitting, which I personally consider extremely rude
17:41:40 <Eighth_Doctor> shoving people out of a discussion is awful
17:41:44 <music[m]> nirik: Ok, general thoughts: I’m in Matt’s “open to the idea” category at this point. I haven’t used Discourse. I see the motivations for migrating, and I see some of the concerns too. I suspect switching things to Discourse might make my life a little worse, but I’m not certain of that. If migrations are going to happen, the Changes process might be an OK place to start eating our own dog food.
17:42:11 <Eighth_Doctor> between that and the automatic topic shutdown after 30 days and some of the other things on discourse, I definitely think it's inappropriate for technical discussions
17:42:42 <nirik> You can set the 'auto close' thing per thread (or whatever they call them) I am pretty sure.
17:42:42 <music[m]> Eighth_Doctor: Do you know if the topic shutdown is configurable? I would find that harmful too.
17:42:54 <Eighth_Doctor> music[m]: the few times I've interacted, it doesn't appear to be
17:43:17 <Eighth_Doctor> I think discourse is perfectly fine for user support and things of that nature, but development discussions suck on discourse
17:43:41 <salimma> I wonder if the Python folks have done any retrospective after switching to Discourse for development
17:43:57 <nirik> It does seem editable per thread.
17:44:01 <Eighth_Doctor> and making it more difficult for connecting outside and inside parties is just unappealing to me
17:44:06 <zbyszek[m]> Michel Alexandre Salim 🎩: there was a mail from Miro on fedora-devel.
17:44:21 <salimma> ah thanks. I need to catch up on that thread
17:44:22 <salimma> (again)
17:44:49 <music[m]> nirik: What about a site-wide default?
17:45:12 <nirik> Not sure, but I don't see any autoclose at all on ask threads...
17:45:31 <Eighth_Doctor> I also don't think discourse is going to help anything for increasing contributors
17:46:10 <Eighth_Doctor> our problems are much more fundamental than the medium of longform async discussion
17:46:17 <nirik> I think there's a lot of folks these days that don't bother with mailing lists... and it would be sure nice to get them involved.
17:47:02 <mhayden> nirik: i'm in the "lost with mailing lists" boat. i go back to work with my team, then return to the list, and an entire novel has been written since i left 😅
17:47:14 <Eighth_Doctor> MIro's message about Python: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/GMK75TUS5LA4Z7F3GWAFYTH4TUKAPAJC/
17:48:01 <zbyszek[m]> I also think that discourse has the potential to make "connecting inside and outside parties" actually easier. It should make it easier for people to move from being pure users who ask questions, to participate in discussions, and then to get more involved.
17:48:58 <zbyszek[m]> I started paying more attention to discussion.fp.o over the last few weeks and I'm surprised how many user topics there are e.g. about systemd, that I would never have been involved in, and that would never make it to fedora-devel.
17:49:00 <nirik> The email interface has it's issues for sure, but it does mostly work if you are used to interacting via email...
17:49:41 <zbyszek[m]> Yeah, the mail interface is usable, in particular when just reading discussions.
17:49:48 <bkm> Lists on sourcehut are really great.
17:50:00 <decathorpe> zbyszek: do we really want that? devel discussions already tend to go off into tangents and side-topics that don't really make following the actual discussion easier
17:50:09 <bkm> However, mostly go, so difficult to package and update
17:50:26 <Eighth_Doctor> bkm: sourcehut is written in Python
17:50:39 <bkm> Email part is mostly go
17:50:44 <Eighth_Doctor> anyway, doesn't matter
17:50:59 <Eighth_Doctor> the bigger thing is that the forums culture is naturally very different
17:51:27 <Eighth_Doctor> for good or ill, we are probably going to lose a significant chunk of our contributor base
17:51:32 <music[m]> I remember when web forums (mostly) died. Now they are fashionable again.
17:51:35 <Eighth_Doctor> if we kill mailing lists
17:52:00 <zbyszek[m]> Fabio Valentini: I'm not sure why discourse would be worse in that regard. At least there there's the possiblity of splitting out subtopics and other measures to make the discussion easier to follow.
17:52:21 <Eighth_Doctor> zbyszek: which is a bad feature
17:52:32 <Eighth_Doctor> because you effectively shunt away people
17:52:46 <nirik> it's not isolating things, there's a link right there saying "XYZ posts have been split off to topic: something else"
17:52:59 <smooge> i think it is a culture issue as you said forum people don't see it as shunting
17:53:12 <Eighth_Doctor> right
17:53:14 <nirik> I don't see it as shunting either, but oh well.
17:53:32 <Eighth_Doctor> as soon as you've separated a discussion, you've split the audience
17:53:36 <Eighth_Doctor> that's a shunt
17:53:38 <zbyszek[m]> Conan Kudo: you wrote that before also. I understand the worry, but I think that it won't be a problem for us. I assume our admins will do things in a reasonable way. I don't think we need to assume hostile use or overpolicing.
17:54:11 <Eighth_Doctor> zbyszek: I don't want to get into it, but I have decent reason to believe the goal is to use that capability a lot more than you think
17:54:18 <decathorpe> I'd be less worried about this if we could make FESCo members admins of those topics
17:54:33 <decathorpe> (s/topic/whatever the correct term is for Discourse/)
17:54:35 <nirik> well, take the discourse thread on devel... there was a subthread about the discourse email interface... and because it wasn't a seperate thread, people asked the same questions multiple times because they didn't want to read the entire thread
17:54:42 <Eighth_Doctor> one of the private pitches I've gotten for discourse is specifically around that capability
17:54:51 <mhayden> we're approaching :55 minutes past -- i need to run at the top of the hour :|
17:54:52 <nirik> Fabio Valentini: I think that might indeed be possible...
17:55:06 <Eighth_Doctor> I need to go too...
17:55:12 <nirik> we are finishing up a plugin to sync account system groups perms.
17:55:31 <nirik> ie, 'fesco' could be automatically granted perms for #devel tag or something.
17:55:31 <Eighth_Doctor> and we got into discussing something I didn't want to talk about today because I don't really have a good headspace for this right now
17:55:41 <Eighth_Doctor> and this is my fault
17:55:42 <Eighth_Doctor> sorry
17:55:56 <zbyszek[m]> I think we should delegate administrations of topics a lot in general, because otherwise it'll be way too much for a small group of people.
17:55:58 <nirik> no problems. :) lets stop.
17:56:00 <salimma> not your fault Neal, you did say you wanted to punt :)
17:56:37 <mhayden> okay, y'all -- thanks to everyone for showing up and participating! 👏
17:56:56 <mhayden> i hope you all have an awesome rest of the week
17:57:01 <bkm> Thanks for the discussion
17:57:25 <nirik> thanks mhayden!
17:57:33 <mhayden> anytime!
17:57:42 <salimma> see you folks around! I'm not voting anyway so it doesn't matter, but will be at conferences in Vancouver next week
17:57:44 <mhayden> i'll go ahead and close us out
17:57:45 <mhayden> #endmeeting