14:04:12 #startmeeting Fedora Council (2023-06-07) 14:04:12 Meeting started Wed Jun 7 14:04:12 2023 UTC. 14:04:12 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 14:04:12 The chair is jwf. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions. 14:04:12 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 14:04:12 The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_council_(2023-06-07)' 14:04:21 #meetingname council 14:04:21 The meeting name has been set to 'council' 14:04:36 #topic Hellos & welcomes 14:04:37 .hello jflory7 14:04:38 jwf: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' 14:04:42 .hello2 14:04:43 mattdm: mattdm 'Matthew Miller' 14:04:53 .hello2 14:04:54 dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' 14:04:55 #chair mattdm 14:04:55 Current chairs: jwf mattdm 14:05:07 #chair dcantrell 14:05:07 Current chairs: dcantrell jwf mattdm 14:05:33 In case you missed it, I put together a brief agenda here: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/upcoming-fedora-council-meetings/35619/60 14:06:04 * dcantrell looks 14:06:41 Thank you Justin! Agenda in advance is nice. :) 14:06:56 We should put it here for the zodbot log too though 14:06:57 Not sure who else we will have, but this would be a good excuse for some banter :) 14:07:12 yes, +1 on the agenda. I like it 14:07:13 #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/upcoming-fedora-council-meetings/35619/60 14:07:36 I was really just curious if y'all have anything nice or fun planned for the northern hemisphere summer :) 14:07:53 well, I get to put together a trampoline this week 14:07:58 Any exciting time off planned? 14:08:02 but also I have to figure out how to dispose of the old wooden swing set 14:08:25 dcantrell: Nice, for family? Or for something else? 14:08:28 wait hold on let's make zodbot dance... 14:08:29 nothing planned right now. I've put that on hold awaiting what's happening with Flock 14:08:34 jwf: for family 14:08:37 #topic agenda 14:08:57 1. **First 5-10 minutes**: Something fun, something light. What are people up to over the next few months? Any holidays or time off? Or, what is something you are excited for this week? 14:08:57 1. **Announcements, news, & member updates**: Any specific updates that a Council member wants to share, highlight, or promote to other Council members. 14:08:57 1. **Ticket review**: I am proposing these three, and if we have extra time, we can [review the backlog](https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issues): 14:08:57 1. [#459 Commercial post request](https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/459) 14:08:57 1. [#456 Gitlab Groups and Permissions](https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/456) 14:08:57 1. [#454 Run a Fedora Annual Contributor Survey 2023](https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/454) 14:08:58 1. **Open floor & closing**: Topic spillage from other discussions and any final things to say. 14:08:59 oh, we are planning a 4th of July thing on the water 14:09:10 #topic Something Fun, Something Light 14:09:13 #info topic is in progress :) 14:09:18 There :) 14:09:25 I am going to Brno! 14:09:31 we will again travel to sea with the USS Constitution, then spend the day out on the water, then watch fireworks from 4 different towns 14:09:33 Hahah, fair. I guess that is more formal than "Hellos & welcomes" :P 14:09:47 dcantrell: I was super bummed that I missed the chance to go on your boat in Boston :P 14:10:10 jwf: yeah, the weather didn't work out for us unfortunately. if you make it back here in the summer, it will still be in the water 14:10:19 Also, next week, contractor starts on a major home project that turned into an emergency. Whee! 14:10:21 I am trying to come up with a Boston water day though with some of the office people 14:10:29 dcantrell: What kind of ship is that? An aircraft carrier or a battleship? 14:10:31 mattdm: plumbing or structural? 14:10:47 jwf: https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/ 14:10:55 mattdm: I am trying to remember if this was the project you said you had been waiting on for… a long long time 😅 14:11:27 jwf: pic of ship: https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/visit/museum-ship/plan-your-visit/ 14:11:39 Structural! And it's been a while to figure out. 14:11:58 dcantrell: I totally missed this in Boston, unless it was one of those boats that was docked there in the harbor between the bridge of downtown and the Seaport 14:12:18 Was supposed to be an enhancement, uncovered some hidden problems. (Look ma, no footers!) 14:12:34 jwf: also called Old Ironsides, one of the original US naval ships and the oldest US naval ship still in service. it was launched in 1798 and still has a crew 14:12:36 mattdm: The story of home maintenance in one sentence 14:12:51 mattdm: never peel back home layers, it's all code violations 14:13:22 dcantrell: Wow, that is cool. I feel like I need to go back to Boston so I can, uh… actually _see_ the city and not just the work stuff 😆 14:13:28 They say, the third time is the charm… 14:13:50 jwf: there's a lot to see, but I get it. I've been going to Brno annually since 2008 and still haven't seen the typical stuff 14:13:53 Yes, definitely! Boston is great. September or early October is probably the best time to visit. 14:14:21 It's beautiful for about two weeks in spring, but it's impossible to guess which two weeks. (And also, whether they will be contiguous.) 14:14:41 Annnyway. Maybe time for next agenda item? :) 14:14:55 every 4th of July they take the Constitution out for a turn. it "sails" to Castle Island where it turns and fires its funs. rec boats are allowed to follow it out, but you have to stay 300 feet away. but the coast guard has a different tape measure 14:15:01 mattdm: never 14:15:11 The discrepancy between work travel and personal travel is big :) I was super envious to miss Brno for a summer DevConf… but perhaps another time, or maybe I can get them to consider running the week before next Flock :D 14:15:15 Anywayssss… 14:15:22 mattdm: Yeah, let's do it :) 14:15:45 #topic Ticket follow-up 14:15:47 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issues 14:16:02 #action jwf Organize tickets for meetings in Pagure by priority 14:16:13 heh. Thanks, Justin W. Flory (he/him) 14:16:17 #topic Ticket #459: Commercial post request 14:16:23 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/459 14:16:28 #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-council-tickets-ticket-459-commercial-post-request/83549 14:16:51 So… this one seems pretty easy… I have logistics questions but it is about the coordination than whether we should do it. 14:17:36 This ticket is just "can ben make the post", yeah? 14:18:15 I originally understood this as a request that Ben wanted to do around Flock, but I guess it is more about just asking for permission to make the post than it has to do with distribution tied to Flock 14:18:48 It does underline this creeping trend of commercial things on our Discussion site, which we will have to implement before that totally eats us :P 14:19:21 But I think mattdm is going to help us solve that challenge, perhaps with kicking off a Discourse team at Flock? 😉 14:19:30 mattdm: But yeah, essentially 14:19:33 So for that, I am +1 14:19:44 I just added a +1, I have no problem with this 14:19:54 Unless they start happening all the time, I think the precedent Ben is setting here is an okay one -- but I think probably we'll make that a Discourse Team decision not a council one, eventually. 14:20:00 But as Justin says, need Discourse Team first :) 14:20:10 So, next? :) 14:20:27 Yep, going to record this and then prep the next 14:20:54 dcantrell: Sorry for the runaround… but could you make the vote on the Pagure ticket? https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/459 14:21:02 I get mixed up sometimes too 14:21:13 yeah, doing that now. sorry about that 14:21:25 (would like to abandon pagure :) 14:21:46 jwf: dun 14:22:10 dcantrell: Maybe I could get a Council hackfest at Flock for GitLab :P 14:22:13 Thanks! 14:22:15 On to the next one. 14:22:33 Aleksandra Fedorova: Are you around? 14:22:51 Aleksandra Fedorova: Wondering if we will have a chance to cover the contributor survey, I know we have been discussing a bit 14:22:58 I'll come back to that one in case we can get bookwar 14:23:15 Well, speaking of GitLab… 14:23:23 #topic Ticket #456: Gitlab Groups and Permissions 14:23:29 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/456 14:23:41 #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-council-tickets-ticket-456-gitlab-groups-and-permissions/82722 14:23:46 This one has received a lot of discussion 14:23:47 Ugghhhh. 14:25:01 From what I understand from Richard Fontana, it's probably okay to use the common "license in, license out" approach for git forge contributions. 14:25:02 There are definitely two ways to slice this. 14:25:13 1. What is the immediate action we can take to solve the problem at hand 14:25:18 That is, contributions are assumed to be under the license of the project uses. 14:25:19 2. What _should_ we actually be doing 14:25:47 For #1, I'd love to remove the requirement from our GitLab that you have to be FAS-linked to participate. 14:26:02 It essentially excludes the majority of gitlab.com users from doing anything with our GitLab repos 14:26:06 Even issue comments 14:26:11 BUT, I do not want to bifurcate our account system. It is confusing enough. 14:26:28 mattdm: I think membership in the Fedora org tied to FAS makes sense. 14:26:31 a separate gitlab really seems like the better option, despite that also being terrible 14:26:39 But I shouldn't have to be a member of the Fedora org to comment on an issue. 14:27:08 I think we should ask them to keep using the FAS groups for now. And, yes, what David said: I think our long-term (which should become short-term real soon now) plan is to set up our own dedicated instance. 14:27:18 dcantrell: Yeah, I think this is probably the #2 thing, but we couldn't figure this one out at the Council hackfest either (at least, not with allocating way more time to the topic than we could afford) 14:27:18 I don't think it's unreasonable to require an account to comment on an issue, but that shouldn't also require becoming a signed and notarized contributor 14:27:32 mattdm: For participation, membership, or both? 14:27:56 FAS groups for membership. And they shouldn't be required for participation. 14:28:12 mattdm: I'd vote +1 on that. That is my ideal outcome here. 14:28:22 same, +1 for that 14:28:40 Then let me write a #proposed and we can log an official vote 14:28:54 The Fedora gitlab.com space should be able to be configured so that people can participate without group membership, right? 14:29:18 yes, without group membership but with an account 14:29:22 #proposed The Council approves the continued use of the GitLab SAML link for membership to the Fedora GitLab.com organization, but participation in the Fedora namespace repositories and issue trackers should not require a FAS-linked GitLab account to participate. 14:29:23 +1 14:29:36 +1 14:29:50 +1 14:29:53 mattdm: Sigh. I hope so. 14:30:08 #approved +3/0/0 The Council approves the continued use of the GitLab SAML link for membership to the Fedora GitLab.com organization, but participation in the Fedora namespace repositories and issue trackers should not require a FAS-linked GitLab account to participate. 14:30:21 Two tickets in 15 minutes, not bad… 14:30:31 I'd like teams to avoid setting up non-FAS groups -- if there is a case where that might be useful in gitlab, that group is probably important enough to be in FAS. 14:31:38 mattdm: Yeah, I would also like to see the FAS-linked groups become standard practice – but this can probably be influenced by whatever the long tail action ends up shaking out to be. 14:32:05 For the log reader's context, this is something we have been looking into for a while, and still are looking at (re: a self-managed GitLab site separate from gitlab.com). Stay tuned for more. 14:32:06 Gahd, Gitlab is like the KDE of gitforges 14:32:13 Shall we move on to the next ticket? 14:32:14 * mattdm digs through the configuration for all the options 14:32:26 Although I think it will be tough to do without Aleksandra Fedorova 🤔 14:32:30 mattdm: ha! 14:33:04 Ticket #456 on GitLab, going once… 14:33:15 Going twice… 14:33:21 Going thrice… 14:33:31 🧑‍⚖️ 14:33:46 #topic Ticket #454: Run a Fedora Annual Contributor Survey 2023 14:33:53 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/454 14:33:58 #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-council-tickets-ticket-454-run-a-fedora-annual-contributor-survey-2023/82321 14:34:12 I had another gitlab thing but it can go elsewhere :) 14:34:38 As I understand it, this is ready to go but waiting for someone with Limesurvey access? 14:34:41 Is the question set final here? Was there anything still pending on the Council for this? 14:34:46 I imagine bookwar is participating in RHEL Days right now 14:35:04 dcantrell: That is more than probable I would guess. I forgot. 14:36:01 mattdm: Unless bookwar specifically does not want the access, I wonder if it would be more direct to add her as a survey creator in LimeSurvey, so she could always set up the contributor survey and "fork" the old ones when making one for a new year. 14:36:29 But also, if it is only a matter of LimeSurvey here, this does not need to be a Council discussion either 🤷 14:36:51 I triaged it because I wasn't sure if we had any final things to take care before it goes to the digital press 14:37:01 * the digital printing press 14:37:22 I say ship it. 14:37:55 Cool. Then I'll just make a note and then maybe we can choose a lucky ticket to make it into the time we have left today. 14:38:40 #info This ticket does not appear to need further Council input, but actually seems ready to ship! Some LimeSurvey coordination still needs to happen, but JWF and Aleksandra Fedorova can coordinate this in other channels. 14:39:24 yep 14:39:49 Oh, here is something that should be easy 14:40:00 #topic Ticket #449: Trademark approval for container/fedora-toolbox as a Fedora Linux 39 release-blocking deliverable 14:40:08 #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/449 14:40:17 #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-council-tickets-ticket-449-trademark-approval-for-container-fedora-toolbox-as-a-fedora-linux-39-release-blocking-deliverable/81236 14:40:28 And also seems to be a good one for dcantrell to check out as our engineering rep 14:40:33 Looks like we're waiting on a +1. :) 14:40:43 I just added my +1 14:40:51 I had already read that discussion, but did not vote in the ticket 14:40:54 which I just did 14:41:03 Super. 14:41:24 Then, uh… is anything else needed from a Council level here? mattdm, looking at you a bit for this one with how trademark tickets are typically handled? 14:41:56 I wanted to ask what, if anything, do I need to be doing now for Flock? 14:42:10 dcantrell: Submit to the CFP! :D 14:42:12 planning and travel wise because I don't want this to get down to the wire 14:42:28 Just to be clear, there are two things here: 1. Trademark use approval, and 2. The question about variant_id. The former is really what needs council approval -- honestly the variant_id should be given 14:42:48 (I'll circle back to this at open floor but perhaps we can switch over now to provide ample time to discuss Flock – https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/flock-2023-cfp-open-now-until-20-june/) 14:43:02 mattdm: OK. Then… we should be all set and this ticket can be closed as `approved`. Right? 14:43:14 The reporter is clear to go ahead with the trademark use and the variant_id change. 14:43:15 I am fine with the trademark use. And I agree with a different variant ID. What may be useful is a registry of variant IDs or at least a standard form for selecting them 14:43:36 dcantrell: I sense a SPDX perspective creeping in here :D 14:43:54 heh, not necessarily but maybe a little 14:44:06 It would be cool to have some registry or database of all the variant_id's actually in use today across what data we are getting back for our usage metrics. 14:44:09 os-release is meant to be machine readable, so defining a naming convention for variant ID in Fedora is a good idea 14:44:17 right, that would be useful 14:44:35 Sounds like a FESCo policy? 14:44:46 I can bring that up with FESCo, yes 14:45:01 this seems like something procedural we can implement 14:45:09 #idea Room for expanding here: A registry or database of variant_ids would be helpful to standardize. Although it is not something driven at the Council level, it would be useful data to have at the Council level! 14:45:25 dcantrell: dcantrell++ That would be awesome 🙌 14:45:25 jwf: Karma for dcantrell changed to 2 (for the release cycle f38): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 14:45:46 Oh, I used #approved earlier when I meant to use #agreed. Ah well 14:46:37 #agreed +3/0/0 This trademark use request and the additional request of a new variant_id is approved. The reporter is authorized to go forward with their changes. 14:47:12 thanks dcantrell 14:47:15 OK. So 30 minutes, we accomplished three tickets. I'm OK with that and using the rest of our time as open floor. Thoughts? 14:47:27 (We might be able to squeeze in one more ticket but I don't want to take away time from the Flock topic) 14:47:32 Yep! Or a quick nap before next meeting! 14:48:00 Do we have the hotel code yet? 14:48:06 it's on the page 14:48:12 REDH010823 14:48:13 And have we heard back from Amazon? 14:48:16 Yes, it was in the CFP announcement. But I want to make a new post just about the venue so it doesn't get missed. 14:48:28 * mattdm uploaded an image: (30KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/fedora.im/627feab3a868c11210483f31b6866daa1d6d9db1/image.png > 14:48:30 I am going to take this as, "Let's go to open floor!" 14:48:34 #topic Open floor 14:48:46 The website is another thing. 14:48:50 Ah, yes, like... I missed it in the CFP announcement :) 14:49:12 I am trying to work on it and figure out the deployment. I am also building up volunteers of folks who may be able to help us with quick site edits. 14:49:17 .hello2 14:49:18 x3mboy: x3mboy 'Eduard Lucena' 14:49:23 * jwf waves to x3mboy 14:49:24 Howdy! 14:49:28 so I have CFP topic ideas, but I don't want to submit things until I know I'm going or not. and I am receiving mixed info about travel 14:49:54 Justin W. Flory (he/him): o/ 14:50:06 dcantrell: To your earlier question, and this is something that I think is good to put on the record in an open room, but a workshop or session presentation will be tied closely to Flock funding this year. This is different from what we have required for past Flocks. 14:50:29 Speakers and session presenters will receive first priority for any financial assistance for getting to Flock. 14:50:47 Although we will certainly organize something as the Council, I wouldn't let that be your boundary for what to submit :) 14:51:18 OK, I suppose I will submit my ideas and go from there. 14:51:54 We'd like to get the Council there. We'd LIKE for the Council's employers to fund their travel for such an important role. 14:51:57 I am optimistic that we can begin processing assisted travel by the end of June. 14:52:16 What's the blocker on that? 14:52:29 so here's the thing, if my employer or another entity does not pay for my travel, I will not be going 14:52:47 and I'm sure I'm not the only one in that situation 14:52:50 mattdm: In the best case scenario. Because being on the Council is a huge responsibility in the largest upstream community that Red Hat has 🙂 But I digress, I think this goes in a very different direction from the topic at hand. 14:53:03 dcantrell: Yes, I understand that fully. And you are definitely not alone 14:53:37 It does bite, but Flock will be different this year. At least, comparing to the pre-COVID events we ran. My hope is that this will be a gradual step to getting us back to where we have been historically. 14:53:54 yeah 14:53:55 mattdm: Budget accounting. 14:54:22 Surprisingly, everyone who is been in my role before me has managed the budget differently. So now it is my turn to figure out how to manage it publicly and now I am going to have to come up with something pretty fast :P 14:54:44 The deliverable I am trying to produce this month is a Google Sheet with the data and numbers. 14:54:50 i think pretty much every way the budget was given differently 14:55:02 It is not budget.fp.o, but I can't learn accounting software to get that back up and running, at least not before Flock. 14:55:44 smooge: The gold standard that I want to work towards again is the way that Bex did it, with data being almost real-time availability. 14:55:59 But Bex had that accounting/finance background, and do I ever dearly envy him for that :D 14:56:38 yeah. i would actually put that as a platinum standard. go for a copper or bronze standard this time 14:56:51 Keeping a spreadsheet up to date seems like a decent-enough approach. 14:56:53 +1 smooge 14:56:55 smooge: Yes, and absolutely heard. Thus, Google Sheet :) 14:57:02 just remember which shoebox you put which receipts in 14:57:18 heh 14:57:21 though that is probably a pewter standard 14:57:27 Ooh, look at the time! 14:57:32 lolol 😆 14:57:36 mattdm: Ah yeah 14:57:36 Justin W. Flory (he/him): Thank you for running the meeting! 14:57:43 dcantrell: Did this help to reassure you on the Flock question? 14:57:50 Are there any other quick doubts that I could help resolve for you? 14:57:53 jflory7++ 14:57:53 mattdm: Karma for jflory7 changed to 3 (for the release cycle f38): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 14:57:55 jwf: yes, thank you 14:57:58 We could also take this back to #council:fedoraproject.org 14:58:03 OK, cool! 14:58:04 jflory7++ 14:58:04 smooge: Karma for jflory7 changed to 4 (for the release cycle f38): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 14:58:07 Then, I guess this does take us to the end 14:58:24 x3mboy: I am mindful you showed up here. Did you have something? Or would you mind following us back to #council:fedoraproject.org to discuss? 14:58:29 Or, maybe you were just saying hi :D 14:58:56 dcantrell: 👍️ 14:59:00 No, I have nothing 14:59:07 I was just reading the log 14:59:17 Ok, cool. Well, it is good to see you 😀 14:59:37 I won't be attending flock this year, but I was good to know what efforts are running to make it possible 14:59:50 With that, I do think we have someone right on the heels of our meeting, so best for us to yield this space for the next one :) 14:59:59 I hope to organize next year flock at Latam (probably in Chile) 15:00:05 I will end the logs but we can carry the conversation forward to #council:fedoraproject.org :) 15:00:18 x3mboy: Let's definitely keep the conversation open next year for more regional events. 15:00:21 I have a lot to pick on that thought :) 15:00:22 Anyways! 15:00:23 #endmeeting