14:00:03 <mattdm> #startmeeting Fedora Council - Wed, 19 July 2023
14:00:03 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jul 19 14:00:03 2023 UTC.
14:00:03 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:00:03 <zodbot> The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
14:00:03 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:03 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_council_-_wed,_19_july_2023'
14:00:09 <mattdm> #meetingname council
14:00:09 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
14:00:15 <mattdm> #chair jflory7, mattdm, sumantrom, bt0dotninja, bookwar, siddharthvipul1, dcantrell
14:00:15 <zodbot> Current chairs: bookwar bt0dotninja dcantrell jflory7 mattdm siddharthvipul1 sumantrom
14:00:24 <dcantrell> .hello2
14:00:25 <mattdm> #topic Welcomes and Hellos and Stuff
14:00:25 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
14:00:45 <mattdm> oh good dcantrell, I can see you
14:00:51 <jwf> .hello jflory7
14:00:52 <zodbot> jwf: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' <jwf@redhat.com>
14:01:03 <mattdm> I've been having a problem where I don't get messages from the IRC side
14:01:06 <dcantrell> so I just now was able to log in to the matrix thing
14:01:23 <dcantrell> I have missed numerous meetings because I never see them happening in irc
14:01:26 <jwf> Are my messages coming to IRC though?
14:01:31 <jwf> Zodbot is not replying to me…
14:01:36 <dcantrell> yes, I am seeing these messages
14:01:43 <mattdm> I got zodbot
14:01:46 <mattdm> .hello2
14:01:47 <zodbot> mattdm: mattdm 'Matthew Miller' <mattdm@mattdm.org>
14:01:52 <mattdm> but i didn't see a reply to you
14:01:53 <jwf> .hello jflory7
14:01:54 <zodbot> jwf: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' <jwf@redhat.com>
14:01:58 <jwf> Oh, okay
14:02:19 <jwf> I just remember a meeting where David must have thought some of us were talking to ourselves, because the relay was busted :D
14:02:30 <mattdm> I guess I'll poke Element again -- they haven't responded yet
14:02:31 <dcantrell> yeah, that's more often than not
14:02:38 <mattdm> Or are all on IRC and haven't seen me :)
14:02:48 <mattdm> Anyway, who else do we have here?
14:03:04 <jwf> I know Vipul is traveling right now
14:03:04 <dcantrell> whenever I log in to matrix, assuming it lets me log in, it insists that I verify myself on another device.  which makes no sense.  or enter a security key, which I don't have
14:03:56 <jwf> Matrix asks you to set an encryption passphrase, which is separate from the login password (or in our case, FAS integration). You have to remember it and save it on account initialization I think, though 😬
14:04:07 <jwf> Not intuitive and not obvious
14:04:09 <mattdm> dcantrell: It's got some sort of chain-of-identity thing which it uses to pass encryption keys around.
14:04:14 <dcantrell> if I did, I promptly forgot that
14:04:31 <dcantrell> it also aggressively logs you out, which I find annoying
14:04:42 <jwf> We might need a Matrix venting session at Flock 😀
14:04:49 <dcantrell> or we could just stop using it
14:04:50 <mattdm> If you don't have another device, there is an option somewhere to reset. This will lose old encrypted messages, but then you can set a phrase.
14:05:02 <mattdm> Which I suggest just saving in a password manager
14:05:10 <dcantrell> mattdm: I have tried that a few times and it never works, though is does succeed at removing all past messages
14:05:28 <jwf> dcantrell: The fragmentation story continues :D
14:05:33 <jwf> Oh, BTW
14:05:42 <jwf> If I have not told both of you yet, I have rooms confirmed for both of you
14:05:45 <mattdm> Once you have the passphrase saved though it should be fine.
14:05:56 <mattdm> Is it just the three of us?
14:06:06 <dcantrell> jwf: good, I hope so since I booked it and all and have the receipt
14:06:45 <mattdm> #topic Agenda
14:07:14 <mattdm> Let's do:
14:07:14 <mattdm> 1. Flock stuff
14:07:14 <mattdm> 2. Tickets that could use attention
14:07:14 <mattdm> 3. Done!
14:07:26 <dcantrell> I have some Flock questions
14:07:35 <mattdm> #topic Flock
14:07:50 <mattdm> questions, then!
14:08:23 <jwf> dcantrell: OK, great, yes I see you on the self-pay list :)
14:08:29 <jwf> Well, with the hotel I mean
14:08:37 <jwf> Versus payment via PO
14:08:39 <dcantrell> so I'm concerned that Rocky Linux will be aggressive and/or antagonistic towards RH associates.  I think we should have some guidance on behavior, etc
14:08:50 <dcantrell> their recent posts online in various walled gardens concerns me
14:09:12 <mattdm> Yeah, that was Not Cool.
14:09:13 <jwf> Well, it was not just in walled gardens. :) But yes, I absolutely hear you on that.
14:09:24 <dcantrell> yeah, they are not being quiet
14:10:31 <dcantrell> as a developer, I really have no interest in participating in those sorts of mud slinging conversations or pretending to work with a group that is clearly not being a good community member
14:10:38 <jwf> So, there is open communication between me and the Rocky folks related to that incident. You might have seen that posts were removed yesterday – which was also not something that was demanded/asked for either.
14:10:55 <jwf> Ugh, talking about this would be a lot easier over an A/V call instead of text.
14:10:55 <dcantrell> it doesn't matter if they were removed
14:11:12 <dcantrell> I can do a call
14:11:19 <jwf> There are a lot of moving pieces to this specific topic and not all of them are things I feel comfortable sharing in a public forum just yet.
14:11:53 <jwf> But I agree on behavior guidance and leading with the best foot forward, but I think this is a Red Hat topic and it is something we are addressing on the Red Hat end of things.
14:12:02 <jwf> I am not sure this is a Fedora community topic but I could be convinced otherwise
14:12:12 <dcantrell> I actually think it's both
14:12:23 <dcantrell> Red Hat needs to address this with Red Hat associates headed to Flock
14:12:42 <dcantrell> Fedora needs to address the CoC to the community and remind everyone of what is expected of everyone
14:12:43 <jwf> One of the key things that I am underlining to everyone regardless of employment is that Flock is a community conference. It is a community of people, not companies and products.
14:13:01 <dcantrell> yes, and that needs to be communicated wearing a Fedora logo
14:13:02 <jwf> dcantrell: Yes, this is planned.
14:13:28 <mattdm> dcantrell: Do you mean a message now, or at Flock, or?
14:13:29 <jwf> The CoC would be underlined with or without the tension that is there.
14:13:47 <dcantrell> a message now to those going as well as at the "Welcome to Flock" opening session
14:13:58 <dcantrell> I don't think this is unreasonable given the tone in the community at the moment
14:14:09 <dcantrell> we are Fedora, but we cannot pretend the Rocky incident doesn't impact us
14:14:58 <jwf> It does. We have some dialogue in the Fedora Marketing dialogue on this as well, about how we position our brand and online presence leading up to Flock
14:15:03 <dcantrell> is it true that we're getting Rocky Linux badge lanyards?
14:15:07 <jwf> s/dialogue/channel/
14:15:17 <jwf> dcantrell: Yes, together with Red Hat, Fedora, and CentOS
14:15:29 <jwf> That was in the sponsorship prospectus.
14:15:34 <dcantrell> yeah, ok, so if I'm showing up and see that, I'm going to be annoyed
14:15:42 <dcantrell> and I know I won't be the only one
14:15:56 <mattdm> I saw some discussion about this in the flock volunteers channel. This isn't a great moment to say "don't say bad things about corporations".
14:16:04 <dcantrell> no, it's not
14:16:18 <jwf> Yes. The pre-event comms would be in the next week or so for Red Hatters.
14:16:33 <dcantrell> privately, no fewer than 3 people have mentioned to me that they are considering not going specifically because of Rocky Linux's behavior
14:17:08 <mattdm> But, "be respectful to each other" still applies
14:17:09 <jwf> One lanyard with all.
14:17:09 <mattdm> justin, is this a "pick your lanyard" thing, or one lanyard style with all names?
14:17:20 * mattdm has worn Oracle lanyards before, and at RH Summit they were... Deloitte, I think?
14:17:38 <mattdm> dcantrell -- ouch
14:18:05 <dcantrell> I know the summit has done different things, but on the Fedora side of the house we're supposed to be seperate from all the corporate and business bullshit
14:18:25 <dcantrell> Rocky is dragging that in and seeing it at Flock will leave a sour taste for some
14:18:30 <mattdm> yeah, we've never had a controversial sponsor before
14:18:43 <mattdm> There is a lot of "can't win" here
14:18:48 <dcantrell> I know
14:18:50 <jwf> Yes
14:18:55 <dcantrell> I have been trying to play out some what if scenarios
14:19:04 <jwf> Red Hat has worked with controversial sponsors before like Docker. But also, Fedora is not Red Hat.
14:19:05 <dcantrell> my plan is to not engage, but I am envisioning the worst from them
14:19:46 <dcantrell> in a way, Flock is supposed to be a venue where we all work together on the same stuff, regardless of employer.  I feel like Rocky is turning this in to college football rivalries
14:19:52 <dcantrell> which I have nearly zero patience for
14:20:01 <mattdm> That's well said.
14:20:02 <dcantrell> (seriously, who tf cares about that?)
14:20:32 <dcantrell> and yeah, I am annoyed about this because this is the FIRST in person event since the sweat lodge that was Budapest
14:20:35 <jwf> In fairness, I mentioned that there is dialogue happening between Rocky and Flock staff since that specific social media event. The people whom I have engaged with have approached this in good faith and underlined that they also want to build a constructive conversation in the upstream.
14:20:36 <dcantrell> I *want* an in person event
14:20:54 <jwf> I think it is fair that I can say that their social media coordination does not seem to be coordinated.
14:21:11 <mattdm> I don't think kicking Rocky out would help things.
14:21:20 <jwf> Does that reflect what the people coming to Flock will be like? I don't know. But I have not gotten that feeling and I have been very cognizant that it is an element.
14:21:22 <mattdm> David, do you have a suggestion of something we (or I) could do that might help?
14:22:35 <dcantrell> the best I can think of is a general communication from you, mattdm, to the community about Flock and why we do it.  don't call out Rocky's behavior but remind people of how we work together to make things and collaborate.  I guess try to set the tone before we're all there and jetlagged
14:22:58 <jwf> This is 100% a conversation that would be easier over a call than text
14:23:03 <jwf> I like that suggestion
14:23:05 <dcantrell> and separately from that, RH needs to send guidance to associates going to Flock and remind us all that we are going as community members, we don'
14:23:10 <dcantrell> t represent RH, etc
14:23:14 <dcantrell> I am ok with a call
14:23:18 <dcantrell> send me a google meat invite
14:23:19 <jwf> And even without the controversy, we have not done Flock in so long, that might be warranted anyways
14:23:26 <dcantrell> jwf: true
14:23:32 <mattdm> I can write something.
14:23:37 <mattdm> google meat lol
14:23:46 <jwf> Fedora Magazine, then echoed out to social media?
14:23:54 <jwf> I know the Marketing team can help with messaging
14:24:12 * mattdm misses his ghost-writer :)
14:24:13 <dcantrell> that works for me.  I'd like it to go to everyone, regardless of whether they are attending Flock
14:24:13 <jwf> s/messaging/outreach/
14:24:33 <jwf> 👍️
14:25:07 <dcantrell> jwf: I trust what you said about RH planning something, but, like....now would be good  :)
14:25:13 <mattdm> #action mattdm to work on that today
14:25:27 <bcotton> mattdm: ghost writing for you is not strictly in the category of "things Red Hat paid me to do", so it's still an option, but the lead time may be longer these days
14:25:58 <mattdm> Ben Cotton (he/him): I _will_ take you up on that! ❤️
14:26:20 <mattdm> 1. Did you have an alert set to pop up in case I ever mentioned ghost writing?
14:26:52 <mattdm> 2. Do you want to take a stab at this one? Probably aiming at a publish date of Monday.
14:28:44 <mattdm> But don't #action yourself on that one. I actually have ideas already.
14:29:04 <mattdm> Anyway we said half hour. I want to mention the other things quickly -- any more on flock?
14:29:32 <jwf> Just my bucketful of pending actions :)
14:29:47 <mattdm> okay then
14:29:52 <jwf> Schedule is due today… all final notifications will go out to pending speakers
14:30:18 <mattdm> #info flock schedule will be published today, and final notifications to speakers
14:30:28 <mattdm> #topic A few tickets of note
14:30:33 <mattdm> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-council-tickets-ticket-461-approve-fedora-logo-usage-for-laptop-special-editions/85814
14:31:28 <mattdm> Tuxedo Computers has a nice Fedora edition. However, they have some not-in-Fedora tools. What to do with trademark request and that.
14:31:54 <mattdm> actually that's the only one that seems really "address-before-flock" urgent.
14:32:31 * jwf clicks
14:32:45 <dcantrell> are the not-in-Fedora tools they include open source?
14:32:47 <mattdm> dcantrell, please leave thoughts when you get a chance.
14:33:01 <mattdm> they are open source, but there is an non-upstream kernel module
14:33:36 <mattdm> and with that, I'll go draft a message for the magazine and justin can get back to work :)
14:33:42 <mattdm> thanks everyone!
14:33:43 <mattdm> #endmeeting