17:32:27 <riecatnor> #startmeeting Mindshare Committee Weekly Meeting
17:32:27 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Apr  8 17:32:27 2020 UTC.
17:32:27 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:32:27 <zodbot> The chair is riecatnor. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:32:27 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:32:27 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'mindshare_committee_weekly_meeting'
17:32:44 <riecatnor> hellooo! how is everyone doing today?
17:34:16 <x3mboy> Hello
17:34:18 <x3mboy> .hello2
17:34:21 <zodbot> x3mboy: x3mboy 'Eduard Lucena' <eduardlucena@gmail.com>
17:34:23 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Fine, I just think about the daylight savings, in Mexico already apply it
17:35:22 <x3mboy> Here in Chile too. It was applied this saturday
17:35:40 <x3mboy> Now I'm -4 UTC
17:35:51 <riecatnor> should we set the meeting back an hour?
17:36:27 <x3mboy> Well, I'm better with the current time
17:36:52 <x3mboy> hhlp, o/
17:37:01 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> for me it's fine
17:37:15 <riecatnor> ok, also fine for me :)
17:37:34 * hhlp Sorry I'm late muy computer freeze I've just recovered...
17:37:35 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> :)
17:38:19 <tg-fedmindshare> <s​umantro93> Hey
17:38:22 <riecatnor> we have been asked to take a look and weigh in on change process
17:38:23 <riecatnor> https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/197
17:38:25 <tg-fedmindshare> <s​umantro93> I'm late but around
17:38:33 <riecatnor> hiya Sumantro :)
17:43:06 * riecatnor is reading
17:44:35 * x3mboy is reading too
17:48:29 <riecatnor> my first thought is positive towards a community change process that is defined
17:51:48 <tg-fedmindshare> <s​umantro93> I'm supportive of having a change process but we need to know what makes a change process template look like. Also maybe, when do we have that, like in engineering, the changes which are going in for Rawhide now , might be changeset for F33 and which means they have a scope to define what are the new things that goes in every release. Usually always should have a change owner and u
17:51:48 <tg-fedmindshare> <s​umantro93> nless we sort out the teams and who represents them, it's hard to put a change owner name
17:52:28 <tg-fedmindshare> <s​umantro93> I suggest we pour in our thoughts and discuss it on the ticket
17:53:22 <riecatnor> Sumantro, what do you mean by "hat makes a change process template look like" can you clarify
17:53:27 <riecatnor> what*
17:54:05 <x3mboy> My main though is: What things should pass through this process?
17:54:09 <riecatnor> I think we could run this independently of the release cycle, I see now benefit to doing it that way
17:54:17 <riecatnor> no*
17:54:22 <x3mboy> But overall I agreed the idea of having a defined process
17:54:36 <x3mboy> We could just wave in the ML to discuss the details
17:54:48 <tg-fedmindshare> <s​umantro93> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/32/ChangeSet
17:55:19 <tg-fedmindshare> <s​umantro93> Every changeset in the wiki
17:55:58 <riecatnor> I think having this on the wiki is a good idea. I think the things we will want to capture will be similar, but different
17:56:02 <riecatnor> so, we still want an owner
17:56:48 <tg-fedmindshare> <s​umantro93> Has a bunch of placeholders, which need to have information like : owner, progress, contingency plan, benefit to fedora
17:56:49 <riecatnor> and we want some way to track things
17:56:53 <tg-fedmindshare> <s​umantro93> And stuff like that
17:57:15 <riecatnor> yeah, sure, seems like something that needs to be defined. I am not concerned with the feasibility of making a template
17:57:30 <riecatnor> I am more concerned with what we think the process would ideally be, and figure out how to implement
17:58:07 <jwf> riecatnor: +1
17:58:12 <tg-fedmindshare> <s​umantro93> Riecatnor +1
17:58:25 <riecatnor> so I could throw out some questions we can all semi formally answer to see where we want to go
17:58:48 <riecatnor> Do we agree that we want and need a community change process?
17:59:36 <tg-fedmindshare> <s​umantro93> Yes riecatnor!
17:59:37 <riecatnor> Actually, this might be better on the ticket as you mentioned. Can we all throw out questions
17:59:44 <riecatnor> I will put them there
18:00:03 <riecatnor> I think since we all seem to lean towards yes, we can use that as a basis and not go down the "no" route?
18:00:36 <riecatnor> There are mindshare folks who are not here today either.
18:00:39 <riecatnor> hmmm
18:00:48 <tg-fedmindshare> <s​umantro93> I believe it is beneficial and we should make this happen :)
18:00:50 * riecatnor apologizes for rambling
18:01:01 <hhlp> +1
18:01:08 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> +1 too
18:02:01 <riecatnor> I will write something, but I am a bit hesitant. I feel it would be mostly coming from me.. so I want to ask a couple more things
18:02:21 <riecatnor> do we want to run the process as has been suggested?
18:03:38 <x3mboy> +1
18:03:42 <hhlp> +1
18:03:54 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Yes, please
18:04:01 <tg-fedmindshare> <s​umantro93> Yes
18:04:17 <riecatnor> ok, that is enough for me to frame the post accordingly :)
18:05:27 <riecatnor> next I think we can discuss the advocate updates
18:05:50 <riecatnor> unless someone has more to add to community change process topic :)
18:06:09 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Omg, right
18:06:43 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> I don't have Any updates sorry
18:06:48 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Busy week
18:07:38 <riecatnor> absolutely, no worries!
18:07:48 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> :(
18:08:02 <riecatnor> it's fine bt0 :) this is crazy times we are in
18:08:31 <riecatnor> sanity and mental health over contributions right now, and always!
18:09:24 <riecatnor> Maybe we could take a few moments to talk about the git forge situation
18:09:41 <riecatnor> have people been reading the mailing list? I think it finally quieted down
18:09:42 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> ok
18:10:54 <tg-fedmindshare> <s​umantro93> I did. :)
18:11:11 <riecatnor> a lot of feelings there
18:11:18 <tg-fedmindshare> <s​umantro93> Mostly the important parts multiple times
18:11:27 <riecatnor> right, lol.
18:12:29 <riecatnor> does anyone have thoughts? want to just complain or give commentary?
18:12:32 <riecatnor> :)
18:14:10 <tg-fedmindshare> <s​umantro93> I would say, feelings are real. Migration script will be needed and will the council give the team a migration plan ?
18:14:25 <riecatnor> there is this here: https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/292
18:14:58 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Woa, reading
18:15:19 <riecatnor> i also opened this https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/2JXE3GOMER2VQLYDACG2YDE46YR5GB2O/
18:16:25 <riecatnor> So I guess, we can use this instance to think about what we would have wanted to see done.. we can learn from it to help shape the community change process
18:16:57 <riecatnor> yes, feelings are real >.<
18:17:59 <riecatnor> so, I wanted to point those two places out in case anybody here has some opinions and thoughts
18:18:31 <riecatnor> would really love to broaden the conversation and see an overwhelming bunch of positive comments and ideas being brought forth
18:19:23 <riecatnor> I am glad people have the outlet and space to really truly disagree, argue, vent their feelings.. I think we as individual Fedorans can influence the conversation to move in a positive direction
18:20:06 <jwf> +1 for migration scripts
18:20:18 <jwf> Might be a good idea to spread word on Telegram for folks, from https://t.me/fedoranews too
18:20:36 <jwf> I don't know if this news has flowed too far across the non-software parts of the community just yet
18:20:39 <riecatnor> ah, yes, to that too. I think setting that as a hard requirmenet is important
18:21:13 <riecatnor> jwf, which thing exactly? :)
18:21:26 <riecatnor> the two links?
18:21:51 <jwf> It will be tough, but I am honestly a little excited about GitLab. From an issue management P.O.V., there are a lot of features and automation for things that is currently not possible in Pagure. Just keeping a living archive of past discussions and decisions in PAgure issues will be important
18:22:12 <jwf> riecatnor: The announcement itself, that GitLab is the new home for most of Fedora development over Pagure
18:22:14 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> I love pagure; many contributors have worked in the codebase, and it's something than the feel of as the product of the community, but we also know how to move forward and be pragmatic, +1 for the migration script
18:22:19 <jwf> s/is/will be/
18:22:31 <jwf> bt0++
18:22:34 <riecatnor> what do folks think about teams staying on pagure
18:22:41 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Hi jwf
18:22:44 <riecatnor> like, does mindshare want to stay or move?
18:23:03 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> I think to move
18:23:12 <hhlp> +1 to move
18:23:13 <jwf> riecatnor: This is totally my P.O.V., but the worst case scenario is having Fedora folks split across two different platforms /o\
18:23:20 <riecatnor> lol
18:23:42 <riecatnor> I can see your point jwf
18:23:42 <jwf> It would be good for Mindshare to model a migration for the rest of the community too :)
18:24:41 <riecatnor> I was already in a mindstate of "i dont think pagure is the best place to collaborate on a lot of the things the mindshare teams do" but that is totally my P.O.V.
18:24:58 <riecatnor> Like, it kind of sucks for design
18:25:04 <jwf> It took a while for me to come around to that, but me too
18:25:07 <riecatnor> and I don't see gitlab as an improvement
18:25:32 <riecatnor> My thought process says "why are we looking for a tool that works for every part of fedora"
18:25:44 <riecatnor> it makes sense to me that different teams would use different tools
18:26:36 <riecatnor> tho I understand this idea of wanting to keep things in one place.
18:27:06 <jwf> I don't disagree with you :) Sorry if my comments from the peanut gallery took things a little off-direction from the ticket.
18:27:30 <riecatnor> No worries, we are doing open floor and I am glad you spoke up
18:28:29 <riecatnor> does anyone have a response to my perspective?
18:30:01 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Yeah
18:30:15 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Have much sense for me
18:31:16 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> But we need to continue the development pagure to support our current and future workflow
18:31:41 <riecatnor> So, it's interesting, because maybe if the requirements we gave CPE had been curated using this perspective, we would be in a different plcae now
18:31:41 <misc> is the workflow formalized or written down ?
18:32:06 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Not really, or maybe
18:32:31 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> I think no...
18:32:41 <riecatnor> I am not making an argument for Mindshare, or any other team to stay with pagure... I guess I just want to float the idea that I don't see pagure OR gitlab being an optimal fit for some teams
18:32:55 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> I can handle this
18:33:17 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> And I agree riecatnor
18:33:29 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> riecatnor any tool is a good fit for every team
18:33:38 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> But we have tons of tools
18:33:42 <riecatnor> x3mboy, what do you mean?
18:34:07 <riecatnor> (also I realize we have been an hour, I am fine to finish this dicussion tho :)
18:34:16 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> In this case we need a ticketing tool or issue tool and pagure is really good at it
18:34:56 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> For code, the madurity of fedora makes pagure insufficient for some stuff, and gitlab is really good at it
18:34:58 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Yeah and it's integrated magically with antora and docs platform
18:35:09 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Like CD/CI integrations
18:35:46 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> So, maybe 'move' to gitlab is not the best for the whole project
18:36:01 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> But it's totally right for code related teams
18:36:14 <misc> I think pagure has a CI integration
18:36:28 <misc> https://docs.pagure.org/pagure/usage/pagure_ci.html
18:36:59 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> For us, as mindshare is not the best move. I never tried gitlab for following issues, but pagure have done a hell of a job IMO
18:37:20 <misc> and usually, the problem with CI is not on the forge side, cause that part is kinda "easy" (do a web request to trigger, receive the result from web, and bam, that's the basisc)
18:37:54 <misc> the problem is all stuff outside the forge (aka, dealing with jenkins, etc, do it in a way that do not make the cost skyrocket, etc)
18:38:22 <riecatnor> x3mboy, I totally see the reasons why we might want to make the move for technical reasons
18:38:40 <riecatnor> I think jwf made a good point tho, we might want to move as a team to show solidarity
18:38:48 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> misc, the technical part will be OK, we have a lot of great people that can deal with it
18:38:59 <riecatnor> or, we could say nah, we want to do it an entirely new way
18:39:35 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> I can say, let's move
18:39:47 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> We move from tracker to pagure and we didn't die
18:39:47 <riecatnor> for me, the future is still open, and I would encourage people to think with a growth mindset.. and maybe weigh in on those two links I sent
18:40:14 <riecatnor> lol, true that x3mboy !
18:40:26 <riecatnor> it did seem pretty painful at times tho :P
18:40:50 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> ok
18:40:56 <riecatnor> anyways, thanks for all who weighed in on the discussion today. Hope you all have a great day!
18:40:58 <jwf> Personally, there are a lot of things that GitLab offers from a ticket/issue triage P.O.V. that outdoes Pagure, just because I can automate more things than Pagure allows me to. I love Pagure as full FOSS, but it keeps me doing a lot of manual work that other platforms have automation for.
18:41:42 <jwf> I think as a ticketing tool, GitLab is a better platform than Pagure, but that's only if you understand and know the tool. I spend all my working days in git forges, soooo obviously I am biased :P
18:41:43 <riecatnor> jwf, I am curious about the functions. Tbh, I have never used gitlab. Maybe it's time to see what it's all about :)
18:42:10 <riecatnor> #endmeeting