17:30:17 #startmeeting Mindshare (2020-05-27) 17:30:17 Meeting started Wed May 27 17:30:17 2020 UTC. 17:30:17 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 17:30:17 The chair is riecatnor. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:30:17 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 17:30:17 The meeting name has been set to 'mindshare_(2020-05-27)' 17:30:17 #meetingname Mindshare 17:30:17 #chair bt0dotninja codeblock hhlp nb pbokoc riecatnor sumantrom x3mboy 17:30:17 #info Agenda is at: https://board.net/p/fedora-mindshare 17:30:17 The meeting name has been set to 'mindshare' 17:30:17 Current chairs: bt0dotninja codeblock hhlp nb pbokoc riecatnor sumantrom x3mboy 17:30:17 #info About Mindshare: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/mindshare/ 17:30:17 #topic Hello 17:30:27 .hello2 17:30:28 nb: Something blew up, please try again 17:30:28 roll call :D whose here today 17:30:36 umm, ok? 17:30:38 .hello nb 17:30:39 Me 17:30:39 nb: nb 'Nick Bebout' 17:30:42 .hello2 17:30:43 nb: nb 'Nick Bebout' 17:30:44 hi everyone 17:30:44 I saw this earlier today in the council meeting 17:30:45 .hello siddharthvipul1 17:30:46 siddharthvipul: siddharthvipul1 'Vipul Siddharth' 17:30:53 .hello hhlp 17:30:53 .hello sumantrom 17:30:53 hhlp: hhlp 'Héctor H. Louzao P.' 17:30:56 sumantro: sumantrom 'Sumantro Mukherjee' 17:31:03 relrod, ping 17:31:04 nb: Ping with data, please: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/No_naked_pings 17:31:12 Alberto Rodríguez bt0dotninja 17:31:18 . 17:31:28 .hello2 17:31:29 x3mboy: x3mboy 'Eduard Lucena' 17:31:33 hey everyone! 17:31:45 oh relrod, i had something to ask you regarding outreachy.. are you in #fedora-outreachy? 17:32:07 no, but I can be 17:32:20 relrod: would be a good place :P just a small doubt 17:32:24 thank you :D 17:32:32 siddharthvipul: though... we kinda lost our intern due to a conflict she had 17:32:39 for websites 17:32:46 Oh, yes that is the question 17:32:47 aah, that's what I wanted to know.. 17:33:15 She's still doing work voluntarily, but unofficially 17:33:28 She sent me a mockup today 17:33:56 okay, just wanted to write projects in the outreachy doc.. will leave it out (since it's not a part of outreachy anymore) :) 17:34:02 yep 17:34:56 Before we look at tickets or anything 17:35:23 I wanted to give folks a chance to say whatever they want or need to say about the mindshare ticket opened about telegram 17:35:28 #topic telegram ticket 17:35:54 Telegram ticket? 17:35:55 I closed the ticket, and asked them to move it elsewhere. I did see our team engaging a bit tho, is everyone ok? 17:36:04 About moderation 17:36:14 I'm ok now 17:36:23 The mods are also ok 17:36:43 It was a little bit tense, but now everyone is more calm 17:36:54 Ok, x3mboy, really glad to hear that 17:36:55 Ohh, Sorry for missplaced that ticket 17:37:17 bt0, don't think you have to be sorry for anything :) 17:39:07 if there is nothing else, we can move on. if people have thoughts they don't want to say publicly, a DM is okay with me 17:39:25 when the ticket owner asked on CommOps I pointed it here, then I read it and see the screenshot with the nick of the 15yo boy 17:40:16 I see, have we done much with telegram policies in the past? I thought that was a council thing 17:40:18 i unilaterally make it private 17:40:34 that was the right call 17:41:05 bt0: how does one becomes Admin? (question is to understand the policy and willingness to become one) 17:41:14 *not* willingness 17:41:29 so really anything that is calling anyone else out needs to go to the CoC. I know the person said they took out names from that log, but anyone reading it could see who it was. 17:41:42 Admin of a telegram channel? 17:41:56 riecatnor, well, actually it was a lot in the past 17:42:01 bt0: yeah, just wondering if there is a process 17:42:35 I don't know, I become admin when i decide clear spam from some channels 17:42:44 ah, thanks :) 17:42:53 I passed the query to the Council, because I wanted the telegram group was recognized as official 17:43:13 I proposed some guidelines to make any channel to be recognized 17:43:15 siddharthvipul, there is a process.. we just need a way to document it in a better manner ( I believe). The directory problem, the one picked up during council meeting..will solve that one to an extent. 17:43:50 afaik, the admins of the telegram group choose and vote on any new admins. 17:44:02 For other channels, idk 17:44:14 riecatnor, yes 17:44:30 siddharthvipul, I can put a document together 17:44:38 If there is needed 17:44:45 cool 17:45:02 x3mboy: since I already know the answer, I am fine without the doc as well :) 17:45:03 But basically an admin propose one, and we vote yes or no 17:45:10 but a doc is never a bad idea :) 17:45:26 Lazy consensus apply 17:45:33 If there is a -1 then no 17:45:51 If there are more than 50% +1 and no -1, then yes 17:46:00 x3mboy, I don't think it's necessary. 17:46:04 Ok 17:46:18 Would be better to focus on this: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/mindshare@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/NGFDSDIA3JLHVGNLBLB6DVHPAYXU2HWS/ 17:46:32 riecatnor, agreed 17:46:36 I already fork that 17:46:45 I think I will work on that this weekend 17:46:45 x3mboy, great! 17:46:52 Maybe next week 17:46:54 \o/ 17:46:56 Sure :) 17:47:22 :) 17:48:17 ok so.. thanks for the thoughts. Glad to see things moving in a better direction 17:48:23 #topics tickets 17:48:28 #topic tickets 17:48:29 ;P 17:48:38 https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/215 17:48:40 #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/215 17:49:05 +1 17:49:41 anyone opposed? 17:50:13 * bt0 no 17:50:56 * hhlp no 17:51:11 * x3mboy no 17:51:56 ok sumantro do your thing :D 17:52:03 good set of responsibilities for the mentored-seat, it can always be modified later if it lacks certain things, right? 17:52:13 yes 17:52:14 follow up ticket 17:52:16 #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/216 17:52:19 send a PR :D 17:52:27 absolutely siddharthvipul :D 17:52:41 riecatnor, #216 will take care of it :D 17:53:03 sigh, we can also reduce them, right? :P 17:53:04 I just want to make sure everyone sees 216 17:53:30 and you know, forever hold your peace, bc then siddharthvipul will be in every meeting :P 17:53:53 ohh, yikes, and that person speaks a lot 17:54:17 :P 17:54:18 hehe 17:54:44 welcome unofficially, next week we give you the full welcome 17:54:48 #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/213 17:55:06 I need to ask on 213 for the credentials. anything else or can we close this? 17:55:28 +1 to close 17:55:40 +1 to close too 17:55:54 unofficial +1 to close. riecatnor maybe you can link your gpg keys there for them to share credentials 17:55:56 +1 to close, #216 too .. since I am finishing the commit rn :D 17:56:30 +1 to close too 17:56:53 where are the credentials for other things? like official twitter account? I remember Justin opening a ticket in Infrastructure to ask that.. maybe this can be stored in the same keystore? 17:57:22 * jwf waves 17:57:36 hey jwf 17:57:39 CPE or Fedora Infra owns the encrypted credentials 17:57:45 It is in ansible-private, I think 17:58:11 Then, some people have manually been given the password. I requested it for @fedoracommunity but I store that in my own password manager 17:58:15 Some are with OSPO as well, for example our youtube channel 17:58:22 ^ that too 17:58:34 so siddharthvipul everywhere and anywhere lol 17:58:43 we can ask this in Infrastructure meeting tomorrow if they are willing to store this as well 17:59:01 My only preference is to keep like things together so we can find them in one place whenever we do need them 17:59:11 siddharthvipul, please do 17:59:22 siddharthvipul: +1, that would be nice 17:59:44 siddharthvipul++ 17:59:44 sumantro: Karma for siddharthvipul1 changed to 20 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 17:59:54 +1 18:00:07 for the record, OSPO has a encrypted store (internal only) 18:00:11 I can ask it and comment on the ticket tomorrow 18:00:19 (and we are looking if bitwarden is better) 18:00:51 misc good to know. if CPE doesn't want to store these credentials, would ospo? 18:01:05 it is for Neuro Fedora twitter account 18:01:14 riecatnor: yeah, I just think it is internal only right now 18:01:23 understood. 18:01:30 (because we use a python2 old unmaintaned django app *cough*) 18:01:36 lol 18:01:40 riecatnor: umm, are we sure it's CPE? I was thinking it's Infrastructure group.. but it can be anywhere I guess 18:01:45 such a familiar story 18:01:51 misc: RHEL folks made a decision, can't complain :P 18:02:02 ohhh, interesting, maybe i think of them the same way and they arent 18:02:20 but we can definitely help 18:02:33 The thing is, I *also* need them. 18:02:44 In case I need to remove something within minutes if needed 18:03:03 I have access to most of our other accounts as well. Sending it to me first is good 18:03:27 #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/210 18:03:56 this is done and dusted. We can safely close this 18:03:58 IMO 18:04:26 we did al 4 pieces? 18:04:28 all* 18:04:50 oh oh, apologies.. jumped too soon 18:04:56 docs is down? 18:05:03 yeah, docs is down 18:05:08 https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/mindshare/ 18:05:10 oh what the hell 18:05:12 lol. ok. 18:05:22 pbokoc, since sometime 18:05:26 pbokoc: I was coming with the hammer but this meeting got me XD 18:05:51 Down 18:06:30 https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/ just shows the old docs frontpage, it's like the site reverted to about 3-4 years ago 18:06:36 so, looks like we did 1 out of 4 of the tasks. 18:06:49 sumantro, does the other stuff you are doing for this overlap? 18:06:51 Sorry, I'm back 18:06:58 I was in a call 18:07:05 x3mboy, no worries :D welcome back 18:07:19 riecatnor: I see 3 ready for PR, I have the outreachy doc, sumantro worked on creating new entry for seat 18:07:50 Cool 18:08:16 "Document any tasks related to summer coding, such as the intro interviews/posts." if this is for policy, we can expand 215 and seat can contact mentors to remind them 18:08:25 about the blogs* 18:08:56 siddharthvipul, outreachy doc to add to summer coding page? 18:09:06 riecatnor, yep, I will be taking care of this. but i would like to take a step back and ask jwf , about how he feels .. since he was the one who envisioned these and opened the ticket 18:09:14 yeah, definitely! 18:09:18 that's ready, I was waiting for the website outreachy info which we got in start of the meeting 18:09:21 jwf we are happy to hear your thoughts :) 18:09:24 riecatnor^ 18:09:28 gotcha 18:09:30 Looking here? https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/210 18:09:38 jwf yep 18:10:06 I liked the responsibilities outlined here: https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/215 18:10:26 My only feedback right now is to focus on long-term sustainability by clearly documenting how this seat is collected 18:10:30 * selected 18:10:34 Not collected… 18:11:24 jwf, makes sense. You mentioned you came up with something for Commops 18:11:25 It will be important to keep a documented pathway / ramp for bringing new folks in so we don't find ourselves in stalemate like we did with Ambassador reps 18:11:27 is that documented anywhere? 18:11:29 jwf: yes! that's important (for all seats) 18:11:54 riecatnor: Oh heh, calling me out :D I think it was written down, somewhere. I can dig for a URL but not be able to fish it out 18:12:05 Basically, it was a ticket-based nomination process loosely associated to the release cycles 18:12:27 But I think bt0 is better equipped to rep the CommOps seat perspective :) I am not the one currently in the seat 18:12:30 jwf, yes thats a bigger ask which needs answering! and i hope in a few days after expanding the doc a bit more, we can revisit and see how it looks for everyone of us. 18:12:48 * might not be able to fish it out *right now* 18:13:01 * jwf nods 18:13:06 jwf: since we are talking mentored-project, I don't think per release would work (It definitely can but would be difficult) you see, release cycles are often in between the coding programs 18:13:13 Anyways, the basic responsibilities and outlines documented so far look right to me :) 18:13:39 siddharthvipul: I don't think combining to release cycles is a good default pick for Mindshare-related teams 18:13:48 could be 2 cycles? (since there are atleast 5 programs all over the year) 18:13:48 Just thinking out loud-- something like mentored projects has had some of the same and only organizers for eyars 18:14:01 It does for engineering / dev, but the people-oriented work of Mindshare Teams does not tie as cleanly to Fedora releases 18:14:17 jwf: right! that's what I am saying, release cycles won't work for this 18:14:33 Cool, then we are both on the same page :) 18:14:40 riecatnor: That is true 18:14:53 just a thought in general-- what if we had a 6 month check in for mindshare committee folks 18:15:07 like - do you feel productive, healthy here, etc, would you like to move on 18:15:35 because some people have been here some time 18:15:46 idk, random passing thought. and it's something we have talked on plenty 18:15:53 back to #210 :P 18:16:09 riecatnor: +1, with some explicit thinking on how to approach it so it doesn't feel like it is maintaining a roster of names – but more like a person-to-person conversation 18:16:28 Sounds better 18:16:28 Yes, maybe i would do personal meetings. 18:16:35 I am thinking of the reactions to retiring Ambassadors 18:16:38 like 15 minute check ins 18:17:19 * jwf gives thumbs-up 18:17:56 my approach might definitely look harsh, but I do think if someone gets busy or is unable to give time.. they should open up the path for a successor who is willing and can benefit both themselves and the program 18:18:16 siddharthvipul, there is a ticket on mindshare 18:18:21 put your thoughts there :P 18:18:22 it goes other way too, if they feel mindshare is not something they are enjoying, they shouldn't be stuck 18:18:28 Sorry, I'm back again 18:18:32 Hell of a day at work 18:18:35 no worries! 18:18:40 Are we talking about Ambys? 18:18:58 Not yet 18:19:11 so for #210 - sumantro and siddharthvipul are on those tasks. I will leave the ticket open and we can check in next week unless its done before then 18:19:37 210, 215 and 216 are related 18:19:38 siddharthvipul, sent you the link 18:19:55 got it, thank you ^-^ 18:20:30 Sometimes people need explicit permission/acceptance that is okay to pass on responsibilities. Always leaving a clear and open exit pathway is helpful to avoid burnout 18:20:42 so.. there are more tickets. plenty more topics. we have ten minutes left. 18:20:56 I am going to move to 18:20:57 #openfloor 18:21:05 ! 18:21:06 riecatnor, copied 18:21:11 I have 2 things, I think 18:21:26 #topic open floor :P 18:21:37 ok, x3mboy go ahead 18:21:47 I don't know if it was discussed at the beggining because I missed half of them eeting 18:21:49 and jwf, agreed on your point 18:21:51 the meeting* 18:22:00 But we need to discuss ambassadors issues 18:22:31 https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/145 18:22:38 #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/145 18:22:40 we haven't quite gotten there, was there another topic as well? 18:23:04 Oh no. Sorry, it was my bad 18:23:09 Telegram was already discussed 18:23:23 I had those 2 in my taskwarrior about mindshare 18:23:26 ok, I think a discussion on amabassadors makes sense. 18:23:34 #topic ambassador program 18:24:13 I was reading and listening to our past and the historical process to create the Mindshare Committee 18:24:34 So, I know we all were watching the threads with popcorn lol. But I didn't let it get to me. Peoples identities are strongly tied to the ambassador program and I dont think we have to "get rid of it" 18:24:51 So 18:24:51 I think we need to change the definition and help inspire people to adopt the new identity 18:24:59 I have not intentionally not replied to the threads 18:25:04 I've been trying to collect my thoughts 18:25:10 nb, would love to hear them 18:25:21 nb, I would love to hear it 18:25:35 I think what a lot of you have said is correct 18:25:39 communication is by far the issue 18:25:54 a lot of the people i have heard from say they don't know how to ask for funding or swag anymore 18:26:09 and yes, there are a few people who just think RH is trying to take over and shut it all down 18:26:19 which is not true, but trying to show them the opposite is true is hard 18:26:21 to me that sounds like they are unhappy they can't do it the old way. it is documented on mindshare how to do those things 18:26:42 and, honestly, I have lost some of my enthusiasm because of the way the Council handled SELF last year 18:26:55 nb, I am unaware of that situation :/ 18:27:10 riecatnor, council pulled our sponsorship of an event because of politics 18:27:17 Sorry, what SELF is in this context? 18:27:23 x3mboy, southeast linuxfest 18:27:24 I see. 18:27:30 Ok 18:27:41 they didn't like the personal opinions of a keynote speaker at that event 18:27:52 which, i have to say, i don't like what he has posted on his blog either 18:27:58 nb i remember that one 18:27:59 but i don't see that as a reason to pull out of the event 18:28:14 and, they never consulted with mindshare, nor the people planning our presence at that event 18:28:42 that situation cost us most of the remaining ambassadors in NA. Including the person who used to be our cardholder and treasurer for NA 18:29:13 nb, Is that related to https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/83 18:29:28 x3mboy, exactly 18:30:08 Ok, I think I'm mistaken, the ticket is closed as "Sponsorship paid" 18:30:28 x3mboy, it was paid, but then the council dictated that we were not allowed to have a table at that event 18:30:39 Can you point me there? 18:30:47 x3mboy, that's the problem, it was all in private 18:31:01 no transparency, we were just informed by email after the decision was made 18:31:13 I think is a problem that Council dictate that over a ticket we approve, without asking 18:31:15 Puff, they give a reason 18:31:23 ? 18:31:34 x3mboy, I agree 18:31:50 @bt0dotninja someone started drama because esr was a keynote at that event 18:32:00 nb, that sounds pretty disheartening. I am sorry that went down that way. 18:32:02 and yes, esr has posted some unkind things about particular groups of people on his blog 18:32:12 which i totally don't agree with 18:32:20 but i don't think that means that we should not attend the event 18:32:40 :( 18:33:31 for some reason I think there must be some bigger reason as well.. I am not sure how many ambassador felt bad because of this, or why this would reflect bad on Red Hat, because council elections are open for all cla+1 to vote 18:33:51 I didn't even know about this unfortunately 18:33:59 siddharthvipul, yeah, it was all done in secret 18:34:09 and even mindshare was not involved 18:34:10 I see this story as an illustration of being yet another blow to ambassadors, and I think it should be recognized that it sucked 18:34:11 secret == council? 18:34:16 siddharthvipul, yes 18:34:36 I dont see a point to trying to understand why now 18:34:45 riecatnor, i agree 18:35:00 riecatnor, I agree and disagree 18:35:21 I mean past is past, and it sucks that happende like that 18:35:31 But it serves as precedent 18:35:59 so you disagree with your own disagreement by agreeing ? 18:36:02 If the council is going to overrule our decisions, they can actually take the committee and do the job 18:36:15 They are more than welcome to try 18:36:20 x3mboy, they said they were the people to decide because they considered it a CoC thing 18:36:25 or somesuch 18:36:59 nb, I know, I remember de case now 18:37:48 x3mboy, I understand the sentiment, I do think its a bit extreme 18:37:51 we are here to work together 18:37:59 x3mboy, I feel that, we should help council understand, why it is important for us to be acting more independent and most importantly together 18:38:41 but i do understand the feeling behind that event 18:38:52 riecatnor, sumantro sure, but work together mean that if they have concerns about something, they can come and ask 18:39:03 Yes 18:39:10 x3mboy, yes 18:39:18 Or at least to say: Hey! We need to rethink this event, because of X or Y 18:39:18 the reason I dont want to worry about the point is bc the topic is ambassadors 18:39:18 x3mboy: yeah but if there was really a bigger CoC issue, waiting on a long thread for +1s can also be troublesome 18:39:37 I am not saying it was the right thing to do, communication could definitely be better 18:39:39 if there is a concern like this -> do we want to open a council ticket? please vote now 18:39:44 and we will drop it. 18:39:48 siddharthvipul, Ok, so let's them do the job 18:39:59 And they can see if each event have CoC Concerns 18:40:42 x3mboy, I don't think those comments are productive/ 18:41:13 x3mboy: that's not fair, council is also made with people/volunteers (except a couple) doing their best. I agree with better communication but I am just saying there *could* be a good reason to those. I am probably not making a lot of productive statements here so I will stop 18:41:14 * nb has kinda had thoughts similar to x3mboy 18:41:22 But it's how it feels 18:41:51 there is plenty we do without any involvement 18:41:54 from the counci 18:42:01 is all of that somehow discredited? 18:42:02 We are not important enough to at least be notified that they are taking actions against a decision we made 18:42:30 So, I think we need to close the meeting. THere is too much focus on this one event. 18:42:51 Suffice to say, I am working up a longer version of the proposal I put on 14 18:42:52 145 18:42:57 I plan to open it on a new ticket 18:43:02 I don't think to close the meeting now is ok 18:43:13 then can we stay on topic? 18:43:30 we are examining ambassadors, not the relationship between mindshare and council. 18:43:38 I honestly think that we should go deep in this kind of things 18:43:59 We need to trust the council 18:44:00 Because stuff like that are what Ambassadors are getting angry 18:44:43 I think my point is we see plenty of issues.. what is the path forward 18:44:43 They decide things as the same fashion as us 18:45:02 Like yes we can disseminate each incident 18:45:08 but that is a waste of time imo 18:45:27 we see the general sentiment, we see the issues 18:45:30 time to focus on a plan 18:45:44 Ok, we need to take actions 18:45:53 Plan, then action. 18:46:06 Ok, plan 18:46:06 I am working on a plan, it will be up before the next meeting 18:46:16 it is based off what I wrote on 145 18:46:59 riecatnor: we should wait for your plan and discuss that in next meeting (unless someone has some ideas on moving forward) 18:47:01 riecatnor, :) 18:47:28 I'm just angry right now 18:47:30 yeah, lets wait for riecatnor's plan 18:47:35 x3mboy, I understand 18:47:42 x3mboy, yeah, i've been angry and disappointed for about a year now. 18:47:47 it's tough 18:47:48 So, close and let's see what happens next 18:48:15 x3mboy, nb, :( so sorry you feel that way 18:48:46