21:05:54 #startmeeting 21:05:54 Meeting started Tue Feb 2 21:05:54 2010 UTC. The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 21:05:56 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 21:05:58 #chair rbergeron inode0 21:05:58 Current chairs: inode0 mchua rbergeron 21:06:03 What thread is this? 21:06:03 * yn1v has to run for another meeting 21:06:15 * mchua waves to yn1v - see you later, Neville! 21:06:24 I see marketing sort of doing two things (just visible to me watching from a distance) 21:06:28 devel list - board efforts 21:06:31 * rbergeron will find the link 21:06:46 okay, i have the thread, just need the name :^) 21:07:11 (1) Marketing with ambassadors to end users and hopefully contributors using mainly the distribution as the marketing vehicle (with some message from the person delivering it) 21:07:31 * rrix will bbl 21:07:41 #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-February/130157.html 21:07:49 (2) Red Hat press releases - cool but how many of us subscribe to that RSS feed? 21:08:34 Is there any marketing push directed at potential contributors beyond using the distribution as the vehicle? 21:09:12 * mchua reading thread to catch up, hasn't gotten to list email yet today. 21:09:17 a little context: i replied to part of the thread on "target audience" stuff - basically saying, it's a good thing to know who we know who we are marketing to. 21:09:27 or narrow the scope a little. 21:09:45 inode0: btw, thanks for bringing this up - it's good for us to listen outside our echo chamber as much as we can. ;) 21:09:47 inode0, i haven't gotten to responding to you onlist yet but i'll kind of dump a bit here: 21:10:08 to me, marketing should basically be targeting 3 types of groups in our content / efforts: 21:10:15 inode0: Have you gotten a chance to look at http://blog.melchua.com/2009/12/24/whats-marketing-doing-for-f13-anyway-a-show-with-dancing-penguins/ ? that's my best "what does Marketing do?" braindump. 21:10:16 potential contributors 21:10:21 potential end users 21:10:26 * mchua sits back and listens 21:10:27 and .... press people. 21:10:43 so as it is, right now, basically marketing has a list of deliverables that we do 21:10:58 one-page release notes, mchua fill me in here with a link, press release writing, etc. 21:11:17 but we haven't really moved into the phase of "we have a steady stream of content addressing mulltiple groups." 21:11:33 part of that is, we just never really started it, and that's one of the things we're doing at our upcoming marketing FAD in march. 21:11:53 another thing is, we have not quite as many contributors as maybe we could. 21:12:02 we have good contributors, i'd like to add :) 21:12:11 but with the amount of resources in terms of people time 21:12:22 being able to focus that effort on bang for the buck i think is important. 21:12:36 we could address everyone on the planet 21:12:41 focus one those 3 groups 21:12:47 or heavily focus on one group, or another 21:13:01 that should say focus -on- those 3 groups 21:13:02 those groups seem fine to me 21:13:02 ;) 21:13:15 but it's a matter of getting all ducks in a row, which is something we're working towards. 21:13:18 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing#Release_deliverables 21:13:19 better content, more focused content. 21:13:30 here is the part where I disconnect a bit 21:13:34 * rbergeron nods 21:13:44 * rbergeron is kind of braindumping and certainly doesn't speak for everyone :) 21:13:56 inode0: ^^ stuff we're making for the F13 cycle - for the F13 Desktop Spin, as an example (with instructions) on how other groups can make deliverables like that for whatever they are making 21:14:15 * mchua also braindumping and doesn't speak for everyone either. 21:14:25 at a booth giving out media I think we are mainly hitting the user group (and hoping to snag a small number of contributors sort of incidentally) 21:14:35 * mchua nods, agrees with this 21:14:49 * rbergeron agrees as well 21:14:53 the press part is fine, but also largely misses the contributor group 21:15:26 * rbergeron nods 21:15:36 so I'm wondering if there isn't some alternate way to reach out to the contributor pool with the message, that we just aren't quite hitting on yet? 21:15:42 one thing i think to point out here is: we want to address that 21:15:48 ahh. you're beating me to it 21:15:59 what is the message that we want to send :) 21:16:11 we come in peace? 21:16:17 inode0: so, look at http://blog.melchua.com/2009/12/24/whats-marketing-doing-for-f13-anyway-a-show-with-dancing-penguins/ and scroll down to the "extremely unscientific diagram" and start reading around there 21:16:17 well. that might work ;) 21:16:19 heh 21:16:26 inode0: I'm curious how much that meshes with the sort of thing you're thinking of 21:16:37 because if there's a diff, then there's probably something we should be doing :) 21:16:43 but seriously: i think new contributors in a lot of cases need... a pathway lit up for them. 21:16:58 and they probably want to see something to the effect of, why should i invest my time here, as opposed to elsewhere 21:17:06 how does this mesh with what i want to contribute 21:17:16 there are a zillion niche-y distros out there. 21:17:27 not that i want to corner us into a niche, by any means 21:17:43 exactly, and I don't think watching wobbly windows grabs them :) 21:18:02 but if we have goals, and peole can see those and say, aha! these guys are going somewhere. theyhave a plan. 21:18:07 (not a cylon plan) 21:18:17 then that makes it a more attractive place for them. 21:18:25 Artistic work mchua 21:18:31 * threethirty has been in and out for the last bit here 21:18:33 * rbergeron is still braindumping 21:18:35 so I'm not sure that using the actual distribution to attract them, as opposed to marketing "the project" is effective? does that make sense? 21:18:52 who are we trying to market to, contributers is a huge demo 21:18:56 we need to market the community and not the product :) 21:19:27 but at the same time, we should market the product as well so that it looks like a successful community to be part of. 21:19:52 I think we are seeing more talks at conferences about the community, and this might be one way. But those reach small numbers of people. 21:20:27 * rbergeron nods 21:21:02 i always thought the interest in fedora mktg wasn't promoting fedora over ubuntu/opensuse/other end product 21:21:19 but promoting fedora as a good place to get stuff done for upstream 21:21:27 so it benefits everyone in the floss eco-system 21:21:45 JonRob, who said anything like that 21:22:06 Southen_Gentlem? 21:22:45 JonRob, the way iread your statement i read it promoteing fedora while running down the other groups 21:22:46 nobody in particular, but it's the impression i've always had of what fedora cares about it 21:22:54 oh right i see 21:23:08 well.. not necessarily running down other products 21:23:15 but promoting fedora as a great end-product 21:23:18 and i didnt see anyone else even suggest that 21:23:19 rather than as a means to an end 21:23:22 Well, let's back up. What does marketing think about the metric pointed out showing lack of growth on downloads? Does that mean anything important to marketing? 21:23:39 * rbergeron is still not sure on that. 21:23:45 inode0: i think that's what i was getting at, don't think that's such an important issue 21:24:00 Or spun around more generally, what are the end goals of marketing. 21:24:00 i think one of the things i'd like to do with some of the end-user research stuff is ask things like 21:24:37 "are you running older versions and are happy with it's functionality" 21:24:46 things like that. 21:24:55 * rbergeron subtracks apostrophe so as to not look silly 21:25:28 do you think lack of growth on downloads is reflective of marketing not reaching enoughpeople who want to go out and download things? 21:25:43 or not being able to convince people to switch or try a new distro? 21:25:57 * inode0 needs to run down the hall and sign a sympathy card ... be back asap 21:26:04 of course one of the the comments i here the most about fedora is I Love Fedora, but i dont like its short Lifespan 21:26:06 * rbergeron nods 21:26:23 well, i think that varies on who you ask 21:26:32 if you ask a regular desktop user, then that is possible 21:26:47 if you ask an engineer, having something really stable that is the latest and greatest is awesome. 21:27:01 rbergeron, we are getting ready to put our desktop users on opensuse 21:27:02 completely tested and solid every 6 months. 21:27:48 rbergeron, that is also depends on your propective 21:27:50 and on the end goals of marketing.... we're getting there. 21:28:18 it's a big agenda item for our FAD. 21:28:25 back 21:28:30 solid for ATI users hasnt happened for a couple of relelases 21:28:42 and making sure that our goals are in line with the end goals of the distro 21:28:48 i think is important 21:29:10 we have other goals, such as getting specific marketing infrastructure pieces up and running, like Fedora insight, for example 21:29:19 and meeting basic deliverables, obviously 21:29:41 but tbh, i don't know how much anyone in marketing has focused on it in the past, having broader goals. 21:29:47 which is why we're doing it. 21:29:49 rbergeron, which i know nothing about but i can tell you what we get asked at shows and the #fedora channel 21:30:16 you get asked what? 21:30:38 we will cover it at the fad 21:31:12 ah 21:31:27 * mchua afk for a bit, brb 21:31:35 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_FAD_2010 21:32:07 so, inode0, i don't know if this is helpful or interesting at all to you other than "we're getting there. we swear" :) 21:32:58 it is interesting and I'm really interested in whether we can better define "contributor" and find novel ways to make Fedora visible and cool to that group 21:33:15 * rbergeron nods 21:33:34 and i think there are a lot of things we can do in that regard. 21:34:07 even if it's just basic things like.... having more of a presence on linux-related websites, working with students, reaching out to individual projects, etc. 21:34:08 and in the couple of years I've been paying attention I have heard a lot of talk about attracting contributors, and somehow we are doing it, but I don't quite see how 21:34:27 well, i guess a good question to ask then is 21:34:30 "why did you come here" 21:34:40 and see if we can start replicating those circumstances more :) 21:35:09 if we're being successful at doing -something-, we should probably figure out what it is so we make sure to keep doing it, or do it better, or more often, or more visibly. 21:35:47 FUDCon certainly is one good venue that will attract contributors and the growth of those around the world will certainly help 21:36:25 do you think that attracts new contributors, or just strengthens relationships with existing contributors? 21:36:43 I think when held in new places it does 21:37:26 not the point, just a side-effect 21:37:26 "these ppl are awesomez, how do i get involved" 21:38:28 I'm curious too about other events this target market attends ... maybe we should be at sci-fi cons and other non-traditional for Fedora events? 21:38:42 * rbergeron will be first in line to volunteer for comic-con ;) 21:38:48 that too 21:39:06 that's certainly a valid point 21:39:18 I personally want to see our event presence grow beyond community linux conferences 21:39:44 and tbh i don't know where the line between ambassadors and marketing goes when it comes to doing fedora-stuff at these events 21:40:05 but other cons need to have potential contributors, art, design, whatever 21:40:08 * rbergeron looks around for others with that info 21:40:15 * rbergeron nods 21:40:54 yes, i think we could certainly do more in terms of attracting non-developer contributors 21:41:07 spreading the idea of open-source around other groups is more difficult 21:41:28 know what i mean :) 21:41:32 * rbergeron will bbias 21:41:45 we are I think totally failing at conference events at connecting with a large percentage of those we want to connect with 21:42:23 meaning we only meet a small fraction at those events (of contributor types) 21:45:01 i think the key to getting people interested is having great talks in specific areas at cons 21:45:20 i was drawn to the project through a talk spot gave on licensing 21:46:18 when you are giving a talk you have a captive audience and you know who is there 21:47:12 a licencing talk drew Freedom Crusaders and coders (it was a talk from a hacers perspective) 21:47:30 * rbergeron is back 21:47:41 cappuccino machine giving me the business.... fail 21:48:07 inode0: do you think that less booth and more... actual presentations at conferences might be better? 21:48:32 or... some sort of combination of more heavy booth presence when we're doing presentations and such? 21:48:52 or not getting a bang for the buck on either of those fronts? 21:49:54 rbergeron: the booth is nessisary, even if its halfassed its needed, if you dont have on it makes peopel suspicious 21:50:07 We pretty much have round the clock booth presence, we can handle that plus all the talks we can give. 21:50:17 * rbergeron nods 21:51:07 The booth is always popular, we do draw a crowd. I'm not so sure what becomes of them when they leave though. 21:51:24 "look! i got a sticker!" 21:52:17 what does the booth proces entail? just... here's the rundown, here's a cd / key, have fun? 21:52:18 thats what a booth is, its a swag delivery machine, its too crowded to get any real connections with people 21:52:52 or is there any effort to say, we have a wide range of things you can work on, would you like to help you? want to sign up on a mailing list right here? 21:52:56 I'm not sure I want to look in the same direction we've always looked though. 21:53:28 Some booths do have time for quite a lot of conversation with visitors, some at busy events are mayhem. 21:53:58 inode0: ive only been to SELF and OLF and those are mayhem 21:54:07 either way our goal is to teach about Fedora, both the distro and the project. 21:54:32 * rbergeron nods 21:54:34 have people walk away with "those fedora people are nice" in their heads 21:55:04 but we want to find venues where we can more specifically target potential contributors. 21:55:10 venues isn't the right word. 21:55:37 where are the pockets of individual contributors lurking :) websites, forums, lugs, classrooms, ? 21:55:40 that is what I'm wondering about, whether we can find new (I would call them) vehicles for sending our message 21:56:26 * rbergeron agrees 21:57:55 so, i guess the bottom line is, that kind of thing is on the table. :) 21:57:56 we should ask each team where other people like them are... ask the art team where their other art friends congrigate and things like tahat 21:58:25 * rbergeron notes that mail to mktg mailing list might spur good discussion on this 21:58:38 or... any-mailing list :) 21:58:51 rbergeron: thanks for letting me consume so much of your time 21:59:04 has anyone ever thought to have a fedora art exibit? 21:59:26 that is the sort of thinking I am looking for :) 21:59:30 inode0: no problemo. thanks for bringing it up :) 22:00:07 put another way, no, I never thought of that and it might be really cool 22:00:34 why not have people in the community do art projects and we can put them up in a real gallery somewhere, and some of the art could be stuff fromt he distro 22:01:02 mmmm. 22:01:20 innnneresting. 22:01:26 * mchua reads back 22:01:29 we shouldnt just limit it to the art team tho, im sure there are other artists within the project 22:01:43 photography, etc. 22:01:52 yeah 22:01:58 but would it have to be fedora-related, or just "look at all the neat stuff we create" 22:02:23 both 22:02:36 mchua: thassa lotta reading 22:02:37 :) 22:03:00 * mchua caught up 22:03:03 #action rbergeron send mail to mailing list about 'what are other vehicles for promoting fedora to potential contributors' 22:03:11 have some art that is just art, a sculpture of a bird what have you, and some of it could be backgrounds from the distro past and present, or art concepts that didnt make it 22:03:25 oy 22:04:04 that way we can show that we (royal we) are true artists and we do some cool stuff that makes it into fedora 22:05:27 and this could be some great publicity, let the dead tree media know we'll be there, let the art mags and such join in our fun 22:06:15 So, I think this discussion thread (on art galleries) is a great example of how marketing does work - and should work - in Fedoraland. 22:06:33 The question is "well, what would *you* like to see Fedora Marketing do?" and "ok, great, how are you going to make that happen, what can we do to help?" because... that's how stuff happens here. Someone is interested, stands up, does it in open channels. That's it. 22:07:36 There's no one hivemind for the Marketing team just like there's no borgbrain for Fedora as a whole. We all share similar values (4 foundations, rapid advancement of FOSS/open content, etc) and we're also lots of individuals with lots of different goals and things we're working on. 22:10:16 so inode0, I think that we could *definitely* be a lot more effective in the way we're reaching out to new contributors, for sure. Make the pathways more visible/easier to walk down, like rbergeron pointed out earlier. And I think concrete plans on how to do that, like the one threethirty has been describing, is how we get there. 22:10:21 And I really think that's it - and if there's something missing, then we should do exactly what inode0 is doing now, and speak up, and figure out how to articulate and fix that bug. ;) 22:12:38 * threethirty is really pumped about the idea of a fedora art gallery showing 22:13:15 it may never happen but sounds like a lot of fun 22:13:20 * rbergeron nods 22:13:30 nods 22:13:35 * rbergeron has to go. mchua, i hand off the meeting reins to you to end or continue or do as you please :) 22:13:41 or inode0 22:13:42 ;) 22:16:36 * mchua too. 22:16:40 threethirty: send a mail to mktg-list and design-team, float the idea :) 22:17:05 * threethirty adds to his todo 22:17:11 * rbergeron has friend with gallery in seattle. 22:17:16 * wonderer knows 3-4 photographers besides himself in fedora... 22:17:28 inode0, thanks for bringing this convo up. lots of good stuff. :) 22:17:32 * mchua has to go 22:17:37 * rbergeron waves 22:17:48 [6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~/win 30 22:18:00 inode0: you have chair powers to #endmeeting whenever you need to, but feel free to pop more ideas here - we'll send the logs to the list later (I'll make sure that this happens.) 22:18:00 ohey 22:18:51 * inode0 is finishing up the work work day ... are we done with the impromptu meeting part of the program now? 22:19:39 #endmeeting