02:09:40 #startmeeting 02:09:40 Meeting started Sat Mar 27 02:09:40 2010 UTC. The chair is rbergeron. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 02:09:42 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 02:09:50 #chair ke4qqq threethirty 02:09:51 Current chairs: ke4qqq rbergeron threethirty 02:10:01 #topic video streaming discussion 02:10:16 since we're making on the fly decisions 02:10:20 we are? 02:10:24 oh, we're not? 02:10:33 I have a few comments I'd like to add to the discussion that I think would get us someithing $rightnow with minimal heartache - and give us time to spec and implement something immediately 02:10:39 I don't know - I am not the boss here - :) 02:10:53 we are hive minded, plz contribute your ideas so we can come to a conclusion 02:11:01 so we're not running around like chickens with heads cut off. 02:11:16 we spent a day doing video at mktg fad - we shoudl figure out what to do with it 02:11:20 ohhhh I was just gonna talk about using archive.org til we got whatever $awesomestreamingsolution in place - which gives us a quick hit with minimum fuss and ....... 02:11:22 so that we didn't waste a day. 02:11:31 gives us time to do it right at fp.o 02:11:48 threethirty: thoughts? 02:11:49 as people can easily (read WELL indexed by search engines) find our content 02:12:29 for instance we have videos from fudcon on alt.fp.o - does anyone know they are there? 02:12:36 ever tried finding them in google.?? 02:13:11 didn't even know they existed 02:13:13 :\ 02:13:16 i think that archive.org is a good solution no matter what else we do 02:13:45 http://www.archive.org/details/SouthEast_LinuxFest_2009_Videos <-- this is what self did 02:13:59 videos from at least the past two fudcons are up there 02:14:03 but a.o often sometimes has bandwidth issues 02:14:17 threethirty: are you interested in taking the lead on figuring out a long-term video solution that is fp.o hosted? 02:14:18 and there is some GREAT content there - I mean awesome content 02:14:32 and i'm talking like... over the next few months, not days / weeks 02:14:48 threethirty: and realizing that we gotta get a release out - so it's not necessarily highest priority 02:14:59 though I'd love tos ee the vids we have now at archive.org 02:15:11 i'm not sure how this intersects with the RFR / infrstructure guys 02:15:23 with something other than filename for descriptions 02:15:29 lol 02:15:39 * rbergeron loves filename descriptions 02:15:46 rbergeron: if we do a video.fp.o - we need fp.o storage and bandwidth 02:15:57 but it sucks for SEO and finding stuff with google. 02:16:07 totally-awesome-fudcon-video-starring-ke4qqq-eating-cookies-for-5-days-that-rbergeron-made.moviefilename 02:16:30 rbergeron: i would be willing to co-lead im afraid i may be to much of a freedom hippie to be impartial (i think thats the word i want :/) 02:16:49 my brain is acting weird today 02:16:50 threethirty: we love freedom hippies and i will send you... "cookies" 02:16:51 *Grin* 02:17:03 except that it is like this http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/videos/2009/FUDConF11/fudcon-f11-rm345-session1.ogg 02:17:07 rbergeron: you say that now ;) 02:17:08 threethirty: she lies 02:17:17 there are no cookies 02:17:20 :) 02:17:23 ke4qqq: address, or stfu 02:17:31 * rbergeron has cookies and you better watch out 02:17:59 ok so 02:18:22 ke4qqq: could we at least make a [[video_archives]] or something and link the videos in and upload them to ... whereever? archive.org 02:18:24 #action threethirty to send mail to list describing the wants of a vid solution and open for discussion 02:18:26 * rbergeron really has no clue 02:18:39 rbergeron: yep we def. should 02:19:03 i mean - that could be something on mchua's student minion list 02:19:08 #action threethirty to lead the video charge - in an appropriate priority given we have a release in less than 60 days 02:19:34 #mchua to task 2 allegheny students to SEOing our video stuff - and getting links from wiki to a video page 02:19:41 #action mchua to task 2 allegheny students to SEOing our video stuff - and getting links from wiki to a video page 02:19:42 meaning low priority, not high priority to make the release schedule / press 02:19:44 there 02:19:54 yeah - what she said 02:20:05 that all? anyone else? 02:20:08 mchua: is that ok? 02:20:14 #action rbergeron to send ke4qqq cookies 02:20:19 can I coop your students that easily? 02:20:34 ke4qqq, rbergeron, threethirty: this is fantastic. 02:20:54 ke4qqq: we can propose it as a project and I'll pitch it aggressively on Tuesday morning in the hopes that a student team will pick it up. 02:21:04 threethirty: you want minions? ;) 02:21:11 awesome - it means they'll have to watch lots of video though 02:21:17 mchua: three-thirty wants a co-chair 02:21:23 err, threethirty 02:21:27 * rbergeron wonders about rrix 02:21:27 no descriptions on some of that ohter than date - and room number 02:21:38 * rbergeron wonders what rrix is doing this summah 02:21:39 uh, what's "SEO"? 02:21:48 Search Engine Optimization 02:21:49 search engine optimization? 02:21:51 :) 02:21:52 OHHH 02:21:54 our current stuff.... 02:21:54 * mchua do'h 02:21:57 is sitting here 02:21:59 we could still have video.fpo and "embed" the theora files in the page we are hosting, so as long as they can handle the bandwidth 02:22:00 http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/videos/2009/FUDConF11/fudcon-f11-rm345-session1.ogg 02:22:05 no clue what that is 02:22:07 and get it uploaded to archive.org, yes? was that on the action list? 02:22:16 #link http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/videos/2009/FUDConF11/fudcon-f11-rm345-session1.ogg 02:22:16 other than it was the first session in rm 345 of f11 fudcon 02:22:44 okay. So the problem is "Fedora has these videos, and it's hard to (1) discover and (2) find them"? 02:22:45 that could be the state of fedora address or val henson talking about next gen filesystems or..... 02:22:52 mchua: yes 02:22:55 mchua: i think the immediate problem was 02:23:05 discover = people encounter videos they didn't know they were looking for, and find = I know video X exists, where is it? 02:23:07 we have all this video we took from mktg fad - wheere are we putting it 02:23:13 rbergeron: roger 02:23:15 ryan has a movie 02:23:18 it evolved from there 02:23:19 to 02:23:26 we have LOTS of video not doing anything. 02:23:35 it evolved to - we have TONS of video no one has ever seen 02:23:38 and we should make it do stuff - if at least locateable. 02:23:41 #info problem to be solved is is "Fedora has these videos, and it's hard to (1) discover and (2) find them 02:23:56 #info immediate test case: Marketing FAD video files, where do they go and whatever do we do with them? 02:23:58 mchua: i could do minions or a co chair, video/the web/html5 are things im pretty passonate about and im not always the most "moderate" person in the world 02:24:03 yeah and if you google - next gen linux filesystems vidoe we should find it 02:24:23 threethirty: passion is a good thing 02:24:28 threethirty: That's great. :D I'll forewarn you that the students from Allegheny are fairly new to the concept of "free as in freedom" 02:24:35 principles and no compromises, baby 02:24:48 they've been exposed to it in theory, their class has been reading stuff by Lessig, esr, etc. 02:24:56 but none of them has likely worked with FOSS communities in practice 02:25:01 mchua: so we should expect that their first solution is to upload everything to youtube? :) 02:25:13 yeah and that's fail imo 02:25:21 rbergeron: we should expect that we may have to explain to them why this may not be the best automatic reaction, yeah :) 02:25:22 archive.org has html5 with ogg 02:25:22 crap they read ESR we are all screwed :) 02:25:33 but can we have the why prepped ahead of time? 02:25:38 threethirty: rms too, I'm pretty sure. 02:25:56 their prof groks FOSS, it's just a hard thing to introduce to 40 frosh at once 02:26:06 yep 02:26:12 mchua: can you prep the 'why we don't just dump to youtube' story for them 02:26:17 soooo exposure by immersion 02:26:22 i think archive.org should become a rallying place for right now, and should be a repo in the future no matter what we do 02:26:22 or whoever winds up taking this, if it's determined this isn't an appropriate task 02:26:25 for them 02:26:34 rbergeron: I think we may need to come up with constraints/requirements 02:26:39 more specific than "as free as possible!" 02:26:56 mchua: so do you want to sprint with me on a bit of that 02:26:56 ummmm 02:27:04 monday night? would that be kosher? 02:27:09 threethirty: can you send an email with subject Collections Fedora videos to info@a.o ?? from your fp.o address? 02:27:13 why not just braindump now? 02:27:24 * rbergeron has 2 monkeys jumping on the bed, for one thing 02:27:25 :) 02:27:29 rbergeron: that would do it, yes. 02:27:34 you have monkeys??? 02:27:36 but - if you guys want to braindump real quick 02:27:37 * ke4qqq loves monkeys 02:27:43 oo ooh ahh ah 02:27:44 * mchua doesn't know what she'll be doing monday night, tbh - probably prepping for class 02:27:47 k 02:27:49 ke4qqq: im not sure how make @fpo the outgoing addy 02:27:51 ting tang walla walla bing bang 02:27:59 threethirty: what mail client are you using? 02:28:01 * rbergeron high fives mchua 02:28:10 rbergeron: can haz chair to make sure can haz #idea? 02:28:16 oh, sorry! 02:28:17 #chair mchua 02:28:17 Current chairs: ke4qqq mchua rbergeron threethirty 02:28:21 woo! 02:28:27 oh wait, my older notes may not have... one sec 02:28:33 #link http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/videos/2009/FUDConF11/fudcon-f11-rm345-session1.ogg 02:28:42 mchua: evolution 02:28:42 * rbergeron is afk with the monkeys and stuff for a min - sorry to abandon mid-boat ride, folks :) 02:28:42 #info immediate test case: Marketing FAD video files, where do they go and whatever do we do with them? 02:28:50 #info problem to be solved is is "Fedora has these videos, and it's hard to (1) discover and (2) find them 02:28:52 * threethirty is a mail noob/ hates email 02:29:25 * hiemanshu just spoke to dad, we might be buying a XBox 360 soon 02:29:33 hiemanshu: SLEEP 02:29:46 mchua: dad in room, speaking to him 02:29:55 threethirty: there's usually an option to "change outgoing address" - gimme a sec and I'll look through the UI 02:30:19 * hiemanshu dint see meeting is on 02:31:05 hi russell :) 02:31:13 hiemanshu: its just for archival purposes 02:31:52 hey 02:31:52 threethirty: edit > preferences 02:32:25 rharrison: we're discussing requirements for a Fedora video hosting solution 02:32:34 (using existing services! not putting one up from scratch!) 02:32:39 archive.org + SEO, etc 02:32:55 dailymotion or archive.org 02:32:59 so seems like we need a wikipage listing the video content with a brief description 02:33:19 rharrison: tell me about dailymotion - I am ignorant 02:33:33 either that or just get a bunch of space and use html5 video tags to refer to them 02:33:42 just tell folks to use firefox 02:33:49 and link - and something similiar on wherever we stick that content 02:33:57 dailymotion actually does theora html5 02:34:06 a.o does as well now 02:34:08 but you have to be a "creative content" provider. 02:34:15 what does that mean? 02:34:34 it means you swear you aren't violating copyright. 02:34:35 * mchua looking at http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Dailymotion-tests-non-Flash-video-portal-741825.html - interesting 02:34:51 ohhhh - well that's relatively easy for our content 02:35:16 problem is there is a delay in aproval before it gets encoded on the site. 02:35:21 and they 02:35:49 've already denied one of my vids I reposted a new version of. 02:36:07 interesting 02:36:29 http://openvideo.dailymotion.com/video/xa85xf_bonzer-go_animals 02:36:30 hmmmm 02:36:59 probably because they found my previous version and had others to get to in their queueu 02:37:09 never noticed it was posted by the same person. 02:37:19 what's the lag time? 02:37:24 variable 02:37:34 oh nice, dailymotion based on foss framework, http://www.symfony-project.org/blog/2009/02/18/dailymotion-powered-by-symfony 02:37:44 * rbergeron wonders if this makes it less appealing as a students-for-two-weeks doing stuff 02:37:56 it does 02:38:14 students for 5 weeks. 02:38:15 any extra steps is always a problem 02:38:24 ergh. sorry, mchua. :) 02:38:25 students tend to give up easy 02:38:39 especially freshmen. 02:38:49 rharrison: not if it's their homework assignment and their profs explicitly have "become a foss contributor" as a course goal 02:39:01 but hey, if any of them do get things posted they can do it now with no infra on our part 02:39:04 rharrison: or at least that decreases the chances ;) 02:39:06 * mchua nods 02:39:27 "or you fail" does help. ;-) 02:39:58 and might teach them a thing or two which is sort of why they're students in the first place. 02:40:00 well, also, any projects they're doing... we're going to make sure they're of the sort that aren't critical-path to release, but that would actually have an *impact* if completed. 02:40:04 it seems like dailymotion is a good place where we can direct our contributors who are making one or two videos to put their stuff, and then maybe link it back to [[video_wiki_unnamed_page]] 02:40:04 * mchua nods. 02:40:16 yep 02:40:44 that they can do now and fully comply with the "spirit" of Fedora 02:41:18 a.o isn't automatic but tends to be a week even when you are thwoing gigs at them 02:41:21 throwing even 02:41:31 if you notify them a bit in advance 02:41:47 at least in my experience 02:41:56 so - can we do some decisionmaking on what to do so the students don't need to deal with it? 02:42:00 :) 02:42:32 mchua - what do you think would be most effective for them to do 02:42:34 yeah, both are a bit awkward for time critical things but are a place people could contribute things now without waiting on some other technical requirement. 02:42:46 so they have a successful open-source experience :) 02:42:48 threethirty owns this issue - make some decisions man 02:42:52 :) 02:43:02 HEY 02:43:09 * rbergeron grabs the rod back from ke4qqq 02:43:15 sorry mind was wondering 02:43:36 actually given that dailymotion already made the right call they probably would respond favorably to overtures from Fedora. 02:44:15 rharrison: know anyone there that we can talk to before saying - we have scores of gigs of video to dump on you 02:44:17 a simple email heads up might be enough to move those students up in the approval queue. 02:44:37 * ke4qqq notes we have video going back to 2005 02:44:48 i personally think that we should use as many of these compatable venues as possible but we should still have an inhouse project controled version also 02:45:22 threethirty: what's the benefit (playing devils advocate here) to using multiple venues? 02:45:31 if dailymotion is willing to "play ball" and legal doesnt see a problem in the TOS i say cool 02:45:45 threethirty, with any luck you're gonna have minions in 4 days, and you'll have them for 5 weeks, and you can expect maybe ~4h from each of them a week (or twice that, but I'm being uberconservative) 02:45:50 threethirty: whaddya want them to do? 02:46:04 basically dailymotion and a.o are not ideal solutions. 02:46:07 ke4qqq: more venuse more potential eyes... the same reason people have facebook and myspace, no one is ever in jsut one place 02:46:08 threethirty: requirements for stuff you want them to find/make? want 'em in IRC, on lists, on blogs? 02:46:15 but we've been trying to get anything moving for a long time now. 02:46:33 so any vid we get posted through anyone is a +1 02:46:42 rharrison: true 02:47:12 So I totally agree we should have an infra project to develop a long term solution. 02:47:15 could we not ... as a f14-15 time-frame project - not use the same backend that dailymotion is using 02:47:23 what are they using? 02:47:25 to serve up video on ... vid.fp.o or whatever? 02:47:30 * ke4qqq is again ignorant 02:47:34 http://www.symfony-project.org/blog/2009/02/18/dailymotion-powered-by-symfony 02:47:35 space is the expensive part 02:47:45 ke4qqq: i have no idea, i'm just reading about how they're open and cool 02:47:49 i have no idea what's -really- going on 02:48:06 its not going to be getting infra dev hours its going to be finding somewhere to put the vids themselves. 02:48:21 bandwidth isn't cheap either 02:48:25 which from everything I've read is why YouTube is sticking with h.264 02:48:35 mchua: as long as they allow free formats and dont make us give them rights outside of the cc-by(sa) licenses i think that is a good starting point 02:49:06 they aren't worried about bandwidth but storing two copies of each vid is too costly. 02:49:09 threethirty: if they want stuff outside of cc-by(sa) then we need to run it past legal - I know a.o doesn't though 02:49:35 rharrison: well goog is essentially peering - so they don't care about bandwidth, but fp.o has to worry about it 02:50:09 ke4qqq: a.o is the best solution is see outside of hosting it ourselves 02:50:17 so they'd actually save money on bandwidth with theora or better encoded h.264 but aren't doing it because the phones don't do it and they'd need to keep an extra copy. 02:50:20 soooooo what decisions are we making? 02:51:17 * rbergeron drops a pin 02:51:33 I'd say take a look at dailymotion to see if they clear legal. put a.o as the preferred solution but acceptable alts are good too. 02:51:43 so - a.o vs dm - sounds liek threethirty endorses a.o, as well as rharrison 02:51:46 so i think that is agreed 02:51:59 * ke4qqq wonders if rharrison is now threethirty's cochair 02:52:05 and we need to determine licensing to see if we can duplicate the video onto dm 02:52:06 i think the decision should be move forware on a.o 02:52:16 okay 02:52:23 a.o from a ethical stand point is excellent. 02:52:24 #agreed a.o is preferred - move ahead there. eval dailymotion 02:52:28 #agreed video should be hosted on a.o 02:52:33 #undo 02:52:33 Removing item from minutes: 02:52:41 I've met Paul Jones. Trust him completely. 02:52:51 eval dailymotion against what criteria (is cc-by-sa and free formats and bandwidth it?) 02:53:01 or is making that criteria list with threethirty part of what we'd like them to do? 02:53:24 i think we should bucket the dm stuff as far as the students go - let's focus on getting them up and running on a.o 02:53:26 thats too rough for students who don't know the freedom culture imo 02:53:27 (imo) 02:53:45 yeah, an SOP would need to be made for dailymotion. i.e. what license / format is acceptable because you can post otherwise as well. 02:53:48 a.o is a great starting point 02:53:51 asking them to eval stuff on basis of libre 02:54:16 really with a.o based in Chapel Hill and RH in Raleigh... 02:54:34 butts are in kicking distance :) 02:54:35 its only a thirty min drive to hammer out details. 02:54:55 * rbergeron notes that students are ... where again? 02:54:57 I think there is a mutual benefit angle here. 02:55:01 rharrison: you know people at a.o that might help us out there? 02:55:04 rharrison: i agree 02:55:08 rharrison: yeah me too 02:55:17 I met PJ when he spoke somewhere. 02:55:40 don't know him on a personal level. Was just REALLY impressed talking to him. 02:55:40 now we have to decide how to setup the account and how access will go 02:56:25 especially if RH could donate some server space for them. Probably tax deduct for them. 02:56:27 can we move that to the list to hammer out details - get wider input - or is that something we feel confident in settling here? 02:56:30 threethirty: here's what i suggest - 02:56:45 which is better than donating to fp.o for accounting reasons. 02:56:56 ke4qqq, taking words out of my fingers again 02:57:01 rharrison: +1 a dontaion would be awesome for all involved 02:57:30 that would be a conversation for Max to have with the folks at RH. fingers crossed is a good way to put it. 02:57:39 great if they do, understand if they don't. 02:57:53 threethirty:i was going to say - maybe take a day or two and think about all the random details that you think of and put them in a mail to the list 02:58:18 rbergeron: is this worth a status check at next mktg meeting 02:58:28 rbergeron: can do 02:58:54 #action threethirty to think about details and summarize in email 02:58:59 Off topic: dang more udev updates... What's going on there? 02:59:07 #action threethirty - above stuff over next few days 02:59:35 ke4qqq: yes, if nothing else to make sure threethirty has resources / questions answered 02:59:37 or is release stuff the priority now 02:59:47 cool 02:59:53 well - if we can get this stuff moved off onto the students, then great 03:00:08 anything else? 03:00:17 we'd just need a "what to do' outline there for mel to present, but that's by tuesday 03:00:25 mchua: still here? 03:00:25 rbergeron: ah, sorry - they're in Meadville, PA. It's about 2h north of Pittsburgh. 03:00:28 Yep. 03:00:29 that's what I like about dm. They might be able to contribute something without going through to much trouble. 03:00:44 I would *love* to have the students make an SOP as a deliverable. 03:01:00 mchua - what do you need from us / threethirty and by when 03:01:06 for you to propose this to professor(s) 03:01:08 if anything at all 03:01:19 whoa, my wife is on the phone with someone near there right now. 03:01:22 small world. 03:01:38 rbergeron, threethirty - I need a "job descript" (1-2 paragraphs) on what you need done and why it's important 03:01:39 assuming threethirty and his possible co-chair rharrison want to give up control 03:02:06 rbergeron, threethirty - monday noon is good; the class itself is tuesday morning 03:02:12 heh, as if I've ever held onto "control" 03:02:15 threethirty: can you do that by monday, we'll review on-list along with whatever q's you have and get something to mchua so we can get the ball rolling and get back to deliverables fun? 03:02:26 monday noon would let the profs help shape it a bit to their students ahead of time, but if I get it on Tuesday morning I am going to pitch it anyway 03:02:42 substitute dates that mchua just said 03:02:44 Mm, deliverables fun. 03:02:49 rbergeron: i think i can :) 03:02:55 thanks, threethirty! 03:02:56 k - if you need help, ASK ASK ASK :) 03:03:00 Mm, videos. 03:03:05 yes - people will be here all weekend 03:03:08 so ask away 03:03:10 ask on list 03:03:19 someone will answer 03:03:21 threethirty, I'll try to get them into this channel to talk with you as soon as I can. 03:03:29 lol ok 03:03:30 (read: after tues morning) 03:03:40 * threethirty is going afk 03:03:52 threethirty - i'll send out logs 03:04:05 mchua - can you #info on what we need to write again 03:04:07 err 03:04:08 actually 03:04:17 #info < mchua> rbergeron, threethirty - I need a "job descript" (1-2 paragraphs) on what you need done and why it's important 03:04:28 #info monday noon would let the profs help shape it a bit to their students ahead of time, but if I get it on Tuesday morning I am going to pitch it anyway 03:04:35 ty :) 03:04:53 no ty ;) 03:04:58 * ke4qqq steps away for a bit - thanks all 03:05:19 * rbergeron waves, thx :) 03:05:39 * mchua has to jet 03:05:42 wait wait 03:05:49 eh? 03:05:52 one last thing mchua - if you can, or i'll mail it 03:05:57 rbergeron: go for it. 03:06:00 what are we doing re: telling the kids why no youtube 03:06:11 are you going to tackle that as class discussion or ... what 03:06:34 or not relevant to shipping this stuff to you to ask them to do 03:06:35 :) 03:06:36 oh oh oh! "because it's not free" 03:06:55 03:06:57 you know - let's do this - if the professors think it's a good topic 03:07:04 03:07:06 then - we'll worrry about it 03:07:12 yes? 03:07:35 i expect you'll be covering freedom all over the place in that class so :) 03:07:40 you better be anyway :D 03:07:45 rbergeron: yep yep yep. 03:07:49 I mean, they've got them reading Lessig. 03:07:53 I think we'll be ok. 03:07:59 okay, so no actions there 03:08:01 naw. 03:08:09 * rbergeron didn't action threethirty on sending out mail, fehhh 03:08:11 I think we are covered enough to improvise from Tuesday. 03:08:24 if I get the jobdescript from threethirty, I mean. ;) 03:09:08 #action threethirty to send any questions / etc to mktg list over the weekend, get 1-2 paragraph job description to mchua by monday, rbergeron can help if needed. 03:09:28 * rbergeron looks around for loose ends and sees none... 03:09:33 * rbergeron counts down to herself 03:09:40 * rbergeron kicks mchua off to do what she was going to go do 03:09:47 #endmeeting