22:03:55 <torbett> #startmeeting
22:03:56 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Apr 15 22:03:55 2010 UTC.  The chair is torbett. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
22:03:57 <mchua> ozorakn: You can also #chair other people later so they can control the meeting too.
22:03:58 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
22:04:00 <zodbot> ozorakn: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.
22:04:01 <mchua> torbett: That works :)
22:04:08 <ozorakn> My bad
22:04:25 <mchua> ozorakn: Nah, that works too :)
22:04:25 <honhols> hello!!!!:-D
22:04:28 <mchua> hey!
22:04:46 <rrix> back
22:05:13 <rrix> fedora 13 says hi :)
22:05:21 * rbergeron waves
22:05:41 <mchua> #link http://typewith.me/one-page-release-notes
22:05:46 <mchua> That's the etherpad sprint location.
22:06:01 <mchua> torbett & team: got a game plan / what would you like us to do?
22:06:48 * mchua has a number of ideas, but would prefer to hear yours first.
22:07:33 <mchua> ozorakn: I think you know my sentiments on YouTube, btw - it's a great way to spread the word, *and* it should link back to the .ogg video source somewhere so the content is truly remixable, *and* all videos on the Fedora channel should be licensed CC-BY.
22:07:37 <mchua> (that's just me though.)
22:07:41 <DEiben> we just wanna add  some features to the wiki and then make it into more of a finished product
22:08:05 <ozorakn> mchua:  What's the "BY" part of that mean?
22:09:19 <mchua> ozorakn: Ah, sorry! http://creativecommons.org
22:09:25 <mchua> ozorakn: BY = attribution
22:09:44 <mchua> ozorakn: There are a few clauses that can be added to a creative commons (open content) license; the most basic one is CC-BY (creativecommons-by)
22:10:02 <mchua> ozorakn: which is "attribution" - as in "you need to cite this as a source if you use it"
22:10:16 <mchua> ozorakn: There are others, like "ND" - "no derivatives," which means "you can't remix it"
22:10:27 <mchua> (we don't use that one in Fedora, we like our stuff to be remixable)
22:10:33 <ozorakn> mchua:  I see
22:10:58 <mchua> ozorakn: http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses/ explains a little more
22:11:16 <mchua> ozorakn: and http://creativecommons.org/videos/ has some good explanation vids
22:13:39 <ozorakn> Why is file format a controversial issue?
22:14:02 <ozorakn> I understand opposition to Flash, what about AVI or MPG?
22:15:13 <ozorakn> mchua:  Can you shed light on that?
22:15:34 <mchua> ozorakn: I'll try.
22:15:49 <heffer> ozorakn, you need software that is considered non-free in some parts of the world to play those formats
22:16:26 <mchua> ozorakn: heffer gives a better explanation. :)
22:16:30 <ozorakn> Can't VLC play any format?
22:17:06 <heffer> ozorakn, yes. but still the codecs it uses are patent encumbered and thus it may be illegal to use them without a license
22:17:38 <heffer> that they are available open source doesn't make it legal to use them if the technology used in those codecs is patented
22:18:08 <heffer> but that pretty much depends on your country. as far as i know most industrial countries are relatively strict as far as patents are concerned
22:18:11 <rbergeron> mchua - i'm sorry, i have to jet
22:18:15 <mchua> rbergeron: no worries, I got this
22:18:21 * rbergeron is totally swamped with $reallife today and it suuuucks
22:18:36 <mchua> rbergeron: it's tax day, kids have school... I mean, it happens to the best of us
22:18:37 <heffer> and also Fedora tries to embrace free technologies which are not patent encumbered
22:18:45 * mchua has been struggling with $reallife recently as well
22:19:19 <heffer> for video codecs free alternatives are Theora and DIRAC
22:19:53 <ozorakn> Can those handle MPG or AVI?
22:19:56 <heffer> and Theora can be combined with the Vorbis audio codec. that combination is commonly referred to as "OGG Video"
22:20:02 <mchua> ozorakn: in other words, there are some countries where people *can't* play your videos if they're in AVI/MPG format
22:20:18 <heffer> MPG and AVI are just container formats and do not give any information about the codecs used
22:20:18 <mchua> ozorakn: unless they use non-free software, *or* break the law
22:20:34 <ozorakn> Ah
22:20:51 <heffer> in fact, an AVI container can very well include Theora encoded video. but it is highly likely that people will not be able to play that easily
22:21:34 <heffer> so in a free world the easiest is to use OGG Video as this is supported on almost all Linux distributions out of the box
22:21:53 <heffer> and windows can also play it after additional codecs have been installed
22:22:08 <mchua> and there are cross-platform open source multimedia programs that also play ogg, and do it really well
22:22:10 <heffer> but for DivX you'd need to install additional codecs too
22:22:11 <mchua> miro, for instance
22:22:19 <heffer> VLC plays OGG Video
22:22:25 <heffer> on all platforms
22:22:26 <mchua> miro runs on win/mac/linux, plays all sorts of stuff
22:22:35 <mchua> yep, VLC too
22:22:48 <heffer> and if you use a codec pack in windows it's highly likely that you already good to go :)
22:23:38 <heffer> mac with quicktime is a different story but most mac users i know don't like QT anyways and go with VLC
22:23:46 <ozorakn> heffer:  Did you see the initial suggestion I made through the mailing list for a video distribution solution?
22:24:47 <heffer> ozorakn, yes i scanned it
22:25:44 <ozorakn> Do you think something like that has potential?
22:26:46 <heffer> yes. i think it might be nice to have the video available on youtube as well because we can reach a wider, and maybe even non-technical audience
22:27:34 <heffer> but maybe we should modify the youtube video a bit and have it say "Learn how to watch this video by using free software and open standards" or something like that
22:28:14 <heffer> and then we put a link in the description where the necessary steps are described for different platforms
22:28:31 <nmarques> heffer, facebook campaign: Boycott H.264!
22:28:34 <rharrison> Did you see the Google announcement about releasing VP8 open source
22:28:52 <ozorakn> rharrison, what's VP8?
22:28:53 <heffer> no, not yet
22:29:40 <nmarques> mchua, do you have a quick minute ?
22:29:49 <heffer> ozorakn, it's a video codec that was recently bought by Google
22:29:54 <nmarques> rbergeron, I'm working on the stuff ;) please hold the line for some more time
22:29:55 <heffer> link is here: http://newteevee.com/2010/04/12/google-to-open-source-vp8-for-html5-video/
22:30:00 <rharrison> its an advanced codec by On2 which Google bought a short while ago.
22:30:05 <heffer> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VP8
22:30:52 <rharrison> The mozilla folks have been singing and skipping around for a few days now.
22:31:43 <heffer> but basically i believe VP8 is not relevant to us at the moment as it is not ready for prime time yet
22:31:50 <heffer> as far as free software is concerned
22:32:50 <mchua> nmarques: I'm in the middle of the one-page release note sprint, but leave your question here and I'll look when I have a free moment.
22:32:50 <rharrison> Not at the moment no.  what it gives down the road is a codec that competes better with h.264 that can actually be used.
22:34:16 <rharrison> Its very good news but not so helpful right now.
22:36:33 <ozorakn> heffer:  My perspective is that until a few weeks ago, I had no idea Fedora existed.  I strongly believe that Fedora should have videos to explain the advantages of open source and why it's what the cool kids use, so to speak
22:37:15 <ozorakn> Cool kids meaning - advantages Fedora has over the programs the general public knows and loves, e.g. Windows or Mac
22:37:17 <rharrison> Ogg Theora is what you want to create content in then.
22:37:58 <ozorakn> rharrison:  Perhaps, but the idea is to share these videos with a larger audience
22:37:59 <heffer> ozorakn, i do think so too. and it might be nifty to actually include a part in the video basically saying "the cool kids also watch this video using free and open source software"
22:38:16 <heffer> and then we have a reference to a page describing how to do that
22:38:26 <rharrison> anyone with Firefox (and maybe Opera?) will be able to play them
22:38:26 <heffer> but we shouldn't be requiring this
22:38:31 <nmarques> mchua, no worries, later on, keep ur meeting going, I forgot about it.
22:38:53 <mchua> nmarques: Ask the question, I'll look at it when I come back.
22:38:57 * mchua periodically checking this channel.
22:39:06 <heffer> maybe just a line such as "In fact, you could be watching this video right now using only entirely free software"
22:39:15 <mchua> heffer: +1
22:39:22 <ozorakn> heffer:  +1
22:39:43 <mchua> ozorakn: I think that if there were instructions on how to do that when you post a Fedora video to YouTube, then more people might follow that
22:40:07 <mchua> ozorakn: and that might satisfy... not necessarily everyone, but *almost* everyone
22:40:10 <rharrison> you can upload Theora to YouTube and they'll re encode it to h.264.
22:40:15 <ozorakn> The trick is, the general public doesn't care about products vs. open source.  We have to give them reasons
22:40:28 <ozorakn> rharrison:  That would work
22:40:43 <ozorakn> as long as conversion with HTTP5 works
22:40:53 <rrix> rharrison: totally off topic, but what was that doohicky you used to generate a color profile for stickster_afk's laptop at the FAD?
22:42:47 <rharrison> rrix, http://is.gd/buAOg
22:42:49 <ozorakn> #idea Create YouTube video explaining why Open Source is better, mentions that the video can be viewed on open-source software
22:43:02 <ozorakn> Did I use that idea tag correctly?
22:43:03 <rharrison> don't get the pro version.  The only difference is software.
22:43:33 * nmarques wonders if anyone is toying around with DDoS on our wiki!
22:43:35 <rrix> rharrison: such expensive gadgets :)
22:43:44 <rharrison> its like $50
22:44:04 <rharrison> best money I've spent on my photo stuff thus far.
22:44:55 <rrix> such expensive gadgets for a high school kid** :)
22:45:09 * rrix up'd to F13 and his g-c-m profile won't load :#
22:45:29 <heffer> ozorakn, looks correct to me
22:45:35 <heffer> if zodbod has an idea action :D
22:45:41 <rharrison> swing by Raleigh again.  We'll make you a new one.
22:45:51 <rrix> heehee
22:47:23 <heffer> rharrison, thas sounds... so much  cheaper
22:47:38 <rharrison> I didn't say it was a GOOD idea
22:47:55 <rharrison> just an option. ;-)
22:48:31 * rrix goes to bug developers; cheap and easy ;)
22:49:07 <rharrison> OK, I've got to run
22:49:13 <rharrison> late for a meeting
22:55:08 <mchua> ozorakn: do you think people who are new to open source will find the "here's the .ogg!" "yay free software!" messages weird?
23:11:09 * rbergeron yawns
23:11:50 <rbergeron> nmarques: just drop me an email when you're done - i'll be in town for a couple more hours, then heading down to phx - i can look at it late tonight, tomorrow, this weekend
23:12:11 <ozorakn> mchua:  Sorry.  AFK
23:12:21 <ozorakn> Hmmm
23:12:55 <ozorakn> The thing is, people who don't know what Fedora is need to be given reasons to care about it
23:13:22 <ozorakn> If the advantages of it aren't clear to the general public, it won't attract people
23:13:48 <nmarques> rbergeron, ok, no problem
23:13:56 <torbett> ozorakn: we're going to be leaving so feel free to stop the meeting whenever you're ready
23:14:17 <mchua> torbett: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F13_one_page_release_notes#Draft_starts_here
23:14:27 <mchua> torbett: can you folks email the list and tell them what we've done tonight?
23:14:31 <mchua> a sentence or two would be fine
23:14:41 <mchua> torbett: ah, nm, I see you in etherpad :)
23:16:48 <mchua> ozorakn: Yep. That's one of the things we've been struggling with in Marketing, since everyone on the team already cares about Fedora
23:17:00 <mchua> it makes it hard to figure out, sometimes, what would make Fedora cool to other people
23:18:57 <nmarques> rrix, whats the default IRC program for KDE ?
23:19:08 <rrix> Konversation
23:19:33 * mchua has been trying to find a way to like kate
23:19:43 <mchua> It seems... so wasteful of screen realestate
23:19:44 <mchua> compared to gedit
23:19:52 <mchua> rrix: I would *love* to be corrected
23:20:05 <rrix> mchua: screenshot?
23:20:12 <heffer> mchua, still on kde?
23:22:01 <ozorakn> I need to leave myself
23:22:11 <ozorakn> er...I'll need to be going
23:22:21 <ozorakn> #endmeeting
23:22:35 <ozorakn> #stopmeeting
23:22:42 <ozorakn> er..
23:22:53 <ozorakn> Anyone know how to end a meeting?
23:23:26 <mchua> ozorakn: #endmeeting is correct, but it has to be the person who started the meeting
23:23:31 <mchua> oh shoot. torbett left already.
23:23:39 <mchua> ozorakn: Don't worry about it, we'll get an admin to come in and #endmeeting
23:25:37 <nirik> .addchair nirik
23:25:43 <zodbot> nirik: (addchair <channel> <network> <nick>) -- Add a nick as a chair to the meeting.
23:25:43 <mchua> ozorakn: like nirik :)
23:25:52 <mchua> thanks nirik!
23:26:00 <nirik> .addchair #fedora-mktg freenode nirik
23:26:01 <zodbot> nirik: Chair added: nirik on (#fedora-mktg, freenode).
23:26:05 <nirik> #endmeeting