13:00:07 <zsun> #startmeeting FZUG
13:00:07 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Feb 24 13:00:07 2017 UTC.  The chair is zsun. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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13:00:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fzug'
13:00:08 <BadGirl> [2010-08-20 22:18:24] Posted by z/odbot@fedora-zh already: MeetBot - Debian Wiki
13:00:16 <zsun> #topic Roll Call
13:00:35 <zsun> #chair bexelbie gbraad tonghuix
13:00:35 <zodbot> Current chairs: bexelbie gbraad tonghuix zsun
13:01:02 <zsun> anyone online?
13:01:06 <gbraad> yes
13:02:26 <bexelbie> .hello bex
13:02:27 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bex@pobox.com>
13:02:32 <zsun> .hellomynameis zsun
13:02:32 <bexelbie> hola
13:02:32 <zodbot> zsun: zsun 'None' <sztsian@gmail.com>
13:02:33 <gbraad> .hello gbraad
13:02:35 <zodbot> gbraad: gbraad 'Gerard Braad (吉拉德)' <me+fedora@gbraad.nl>
13:02:40 <zsun> okay let's com to topics
13:03:00 <zsun> #topic LinuxCon China
13:03:18 * gbraad will be straightforward
13:03:22 <zsun> gbraad: please
13:03:39 <gbraad> we had a good confcall,
13:03:40 <zsun> for me, I'd like to say no useful updates
13:03:51 <zsun> gbraad: agreed
13:03:53 <gbraad> but also zsun mentions, no progress
13:04:46 <gbraad> we have reached an agreement on the idea we laid out during last meeting
13:05:18 <gbraad> however, i believe we have few people on the ground to make a real impact
13:06:15 <gbraad> so far, it has been 4 people in total that agreed. of which 2 are here
13:06:33 <gbraad> but no progress...
13:06:36 <bexelbie> so what does that mean in action? Are we making too big of a try and should we focus on a smaller build up or what?
13:07:03 <gbraad> bexelbie: to be honest, I do not dare to answer
13:07:05 * zsun on a call, may not reply fast
13:07:22 <gbraad> bexelbie: during our confcall I also suggested the small events as psrt of an action plan
13:07:58 <gbraad> bexelbie: but your suggestions might be that linuxcon is too much? I almost agree
13:07:59 <bexelbie> was the con call all 4 people?  What was the reaction?
13:08:06 <gbraad> bexelbie: this is why I bring it up
13:08:19 <gbraad> interested and willing to put effort into it.
13:08:51 <gbraad> however, I believe too little to make real progress, as one is not on the ground in Beijing.
13:10:41 <bexelbie> ok
13:10:56 <bexelbie> perhaps we could scale back how we look at LinuxCon and make it like a small event
13:10:59 <zsun> gbraad bexelbie how about come to the talks directly, and just set a booth
13:11:30 <bexelbie> zsun, can you elaborate on that? Do you mena have a booth and send people ot attend talks? or do you mean give talks and have a booth?
13:11:34 <gbraad> bexelbie: I, and zsun I guess, are willing to attend, help, promote and propose talks.
13:12:11 <bexelbie> I am very +1 on seeing Fedora related talks proposed for the CFP for LinuxCon China
13:13:00 <gbraad> bexelbie: I will, and will convince my mentees at RH to use fedora, for demos
13:13:14 <gbraad> but I wonder in what way we will succeed.
13:13:36 <gbraad> bexelbie: I am scared to disappoint any co-operation with CentOS
13:14:11 <gbraad> bexelbie: as in last meeting we should come with an idea how to co-operate / how we can benefit.
13:14:14 <bexelbie> I am not worried about disappointing CentOS mainly because they aren't sure what they can do either :)
13:14:18 <bexelbie> if we both approach the opportunity with honesty about our possible involvement we can make it work
13:14:58 <zsun> gbraad bexelbie I am willing to help. But if it takes too much dayjob, I need some of you to notify my manager (like to get approval ) first
13:14:59 <bexelbie> I look to you all to help define an answer (answers?) to the question of how should CentOS and Fedora relate in China - what is good for that community?
13:14:59 <bexelbie> that is a very hard question, this I know
13:15:06 <gbraad> bexelbie: in that regard, maybe it is better to just see it in a broader perspective and just start an open discussion?
13:15:33 <gbraad> bexelbie: centos has no community in China
13:16:01 <gbraad> bexelbie: it is mostly a given to use in hosting, etc... but there is no usergroup around it
13:16:46 <bexelbie> ok
13:17:09 <bexelbie> Am I correct in understanding that Fedora has only a small userbase in China?
13:17:21 <gbraad> bexelbie: declining for some time
13:17:31 <gbraad> and small as of currently
13:17:32 <bexelbie> do we know why?
13:17:47 <gbraad> bexelbie: yes, I would know
13:18:08 <gbraad> little real promotion...
13:18:23 <gbraad> but worst, ... many people moved out
13:18:31 <gbraad> and this is normal in any projetc
13:18:43 <gbraad> but worse in China (asia?)
13:19:03 <gbraad> strong focus on family / work separation
13:19:31 <gbraad> people will contribute / involve as long as work can allow
13:19:33 <gbraad> but seldom involve in off-time
13:19:36 <bexelbie> Do you mean that participating in Fedora was like working and so they moved out to minimize their work outside of their $dayjob?
13:19:39 <bexelbie> ahh
13:20:15 <zsun> just hang off the call. sorry for this
13:20:15 <gbraad> also, the communities in Beijing for instance, overlap a lot... you see many of the same people in suse, fedora, etc.
13:20:30 <gbraad> they are not really involved
13:20:37 <bexelbie> zsun, no worries on the call .. happens to all of us
13:20:50 <zsun> w
13:20:52 <bexelbie> gbraad, so they are more like "light users who show up at meetings and listen"?
13:21:00 <gbraad> bexelbie: yeps
13:21:03 <zsun> yep
13:22:15 <zsun> some even are no longer using Fedora IMO
13:22:28 <bexelbie> ok, so it sounds like a core challenge is that the idea of contributing to open source is not a big thing in China and that usage of Fedora outside of work is down
13:22:33 <bexelbie> Is that right?
13:22:35 <gbraad> zsun: does not have to be a problem
13:22:55 <gbraad> contributing has never been a big thing (yet)
13:23:12 <zsun> gbraad: that is a problem sometimes, but I'd like not to explain it here
13:23:23 <gbraad> bexelbie: this is why the suggestion of last time is valid. as for centos it is far worse (no people).
13:23:31 <bexelbie> ok
13:23:49 <gbraad> just... just... afraid it will be a lot of effort for just us two
13:24:00 <bexelbie> that is understanding
13:24:05 <bexelbie> understandable I mean
13:24:07 <gbraad> zsun: I know what you mean
13:24:25 <zsun> gbraad: nop... I guess you don't really understand my point
13:24:42 <gbraad> zsun: I do ;-)
13:24:53 <bexelbie> so, let's see if we can make this simpler maybe?
13:24:56 <gbraad> bexelbie: so... this is why I throw it in the open
13:25:00 <bexelbie> If we could show off one Fedora thing, what would it be?
13:25:08 <gbraad> I am willing to do what is possible
13:26:19 <gbraad> I would be a technical person... for me there is not just one thing
13:26:21 <zsun> bexelbie: I'd like to say it from the least, and we can add on top of that
13:26:43 <zsun> minimal, set up a booth (need someone to take care of the booth of course)
13:26:56 <zsun> first addition: submit a talk
13:27:16 <gbraad> zsun: about what?
13:27:26 <gbraad> zsun: EPEL?
13:27:26 <zsun> secondary : the talk is something that can benefit to Fedora, instead of only show technologies
13:27:39 <bexelbie> zsun, I understand your thinking, but wonder if thinking about pepole is important too.  It takes a lot of effort to staff a booth.  It takes less to have a talk.  I think the talk is therefore easier
13:27:48 <bexelbie> we can booth-share potentially to eliminate more staffing needs
13:28:06 <gbraad> bexelbie: you hit the nail on the head.
13:28:09 <zsun> bexelbie: yes it takes less time to stand the booth..
13:28:17 <gbraad> bexelbie: I believe we want balance two things at the same time
13:28:18 <bexelbie> I was saying "one thing" with the idea of developing a demo that we could show off in a shared booth
13:28:24 <gbraad> and we cant
13:29:06 <zsun> bexelbie: ah I mean it (talk) takes less time *than* to stand the booth
13:29:13 <gbraad> bexelbie: I would say: use Fedora... run minishift to host CentOS with OpenShift ;-)
13:29:41 <zsun> gbraad: then you make your dayjob with Fedora and CentOS together ;-)
13:30:13 <gbraad> and I can also propose a talk for this
13:30:29 * gbraad wanted to propose this in the first plcae
13:30:58 <zsun> I agree with this talk, if D. V. have no objections :-)
13:31:13 <gbraad> DV will not have
13:31:14 <bexelbie> gbraad, I believe that minishift is a great talk I will be shocked if DV objects
13:31:35 <gbraad> bexelbie: DV wanted me to do this if possible ;-)
13:32:37 <zsun> Personally I am not planning to deliver any talks this year. I just want to be more technical
13:33:00 <zsun> only exception is for Release Parties and SFD
13:33:09 <bexelbie> ok
13:33:36 <gbraad> bexelbie: we could work on a booth option with having us show of Fedora/CentOS for the use of container deployments...
13:33:37 <gbraad> but this draws away from the EPEL idea we had earlier
13:34:11 <zsun> gbraad: I just come out to an idea, how about we also try a talk about RPM packaging?
13:34:21 <bexelbie> it sounds like we have an external motivator for the container idea
13:34:31 <bexelbie> so the question may be do we have enough people ot support doing the EPEL or RPM idea too
13:35:12 <gbraad> this is not something I can answer
13:35:24 <zsun> bexelbie: I will ask mosquito (aka 1dot75cm in Github), he is in Beijing and active in packaging for Fedora Zhongwen User Group repo.
13:35:41 <zsun> And I can help if he needs, since I am now co-maintaining a package..
13:35:44 <gbraad> but he is not great at presenting and needs mentoring
13:36:17 <gbraad> and not familiar to the contributing and how fedora works
13:36:32 <gbraad> especially seen the recent conflict of interest we had with him
13:36:38 <zsun> gbraad: I can be the mentor for him for presenting
13:37:08 <zsun> gbraad: I think I can still try mentor him. I see he is open to ideas so easy to talk to
13:37:26 <gbraad> zsun: I am honest here again, I am disappointed that he did not even respond to the conflict/email we sent him
13:37:49 <zsun> gbraad: I saw him disappeared on Gitter for long now...
13:37:49 <gbraad> zsun: maybe because he
13:37:51 <gbraad> agrees'
13:37:54 <gbraad> ?
13:38:28 <zsun> gbraad: personally I agree that he is not familiar with the way Fedora do things (especially no-technical)
13:38:44 <gbraad> bexelbie: so, what could be our next step? still focus on CentOS as booth sharing/ shared effort?
13:39:27 <zsun> gbraad: but from my previous experience with him, he will agree on existing guidelines. so I will reach him if needed
13:39:29 <bexelbie> gbraad, I'll talk to them and see what they say and report back ... would that be good?
13:39:59 <gbraad> sure. We will anyways try to propose two talks. Minishift and RPM/EPEL
13:40:18 <zsun> bexelbie, this sounds good to me. but maybe a little faster ? or get in sync by email before next meeting?
13:40:40 <gbraad> and try to balance having to do two things, by having some demo option that can be given for both parties...
13:40:51 <zsun> gbraad +1
13:41:07 <bexelbie> zsun, I'll do my best too
13:41:07 <bexelbie> zsun, what is the best ml for a message, the ambassadors list?
13:41:27 <gbraad> ambassadors and china.
13:41:33 <zsun> gbraad how do you think? I am fine for either ambassador or Chinese@
13:41:37 <zsun> ok
13:41:52 <gbraad> both... we already create a panacea
13:42:03 <bexelbie> ok
13:42:12 <gbraad> the activity on the list is minimal, and makes us drift away from amabassadors
13:42:17 <zsun> I will always get notification no matter you send to ambassador or chinese
13:42:34 <zsun> I mean on my mobile
13:43:32 <gbraad> zsun: respond from you is not the problem... but other people, they are hard to reach/hardly involved
13:43:55 <bexelbie> ok
13:44:18 <gbraad> wish we had a better story, bexelbie
13:44:46 <zsun> hope we can make things happen, better for talks
13:45:30 <bexelbie> gbraad, the story is what it is .. we make it better by working, so i am not unhappy at all :)
13:45:58 <gbraad> bexelbie: for us, we put a lot of time into it, but hardly any results
13:46:10 <gbraad> bexelbie: and this has been for quite some time already
13:46:12 <bexelbie> gbraad, I respect that and am not making light of it
13:46:32 <gbraad> bexelbie: I am afraid, someone like zsun, will give up one day
13:46:48 <gbraad> we really need to raptor proof it more
13:46:59 <zsun> gbraad: well, don't be so upset. at least not now
13:47:09 <bexelbie> yep
13:47:34 <gbraad> bexelbie: some history: http://blog.melchua.com/2010/08/01/fedora-china-operation-raptor-proofing/
13:47:36 <BadGirl> Mel Chua » Blog Archive » Fedora China: Operation Raptor-Proofing
13:48:54 <bexelbie> I will read it
13:49:00 <gbraad> please do ;-)
13:49:34 <gbraad> not much changed in all the years, :-/
13:50:12 <gbraad> we saw an uptake in 2014, but it dropped off again in more recent time
13:50:15 <bexelbie> then I can be happy in the accuracy and ease of getting the information :)
13:50:23 * bexelbie apologizes, but he has to drop earlier than usual today
13:50:38 <gbraad> bexelbie: no worries.
13:50:45 <zsun> bexelbie feel free. We are sync now
13:51:00 <bexelbie> zsun, gbraad thank you - I will poke at the CentOS folks early next week
13:51:00 <gbraad> bexelbie: zsun and I will continue with a slightly scaled down effort
13:51:29 <gbraad> propose two talks we can support ourselves
13:51:52 <gbraad> and I will set up a demo.... but will try to ask some support from the office here and my mentees
13:52:25 <gbraad> hope to align most of it as a way to scale effort we need to make
13:52:41 <gbraad> thanks...
13:52:41 <gbraad> so wrap up I would say...
13:53:08 <gbraad> zsun: bexelbie anything else?
13:53:14 <zsun> nothing from me
13:53:30 <bexelbie> nope
13:53:30 * bexelbie has scheduled a CentOS call for Wednesday
13:53:31 <gbraad> ok
13:53:31 <gbraad> 3
13:53:31 <gbraad> ...
13:53:33 <bexelbie> Timezones are hard
13:53:33 <zsun> gbraad: thanks for the link. from the headline I agree almost no changes these years
13:53:34 <gbraad> 2
13:53:37 <gbraad> ...
13:53:44 <gbraad> 1
13:53:48 <zsun> #endmeeting