00:01:29 <heidie> #startmeeting Progress
00:01:29 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Nov  8 00:01:29 2016 UTC.  The chair is heidie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
00:01:29 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
00:01:29 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'progress'
00:01:50 <heidie> Welcome everyone.
00:01:55 <heidie> The agenda for our meeting is here:
00:02:09 <heidie> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/IRC_Meeting_3
00:02:22 <heidie> Let's start with brief intros and a progress update.
00:02:45 <heidie> I'm Heidi Ellis from Western New England University and I'm working to finalize the materials for our face-to-face meeting in just over a week.
00:03:05 <darci> Hi all...Darci Burdge from Nassau Community College...wishing I was going to POSSE this time!
00:03:18 <krish> Krish Narayanan Eastern Michigan University I teach databases and software engineering Still working on the deliverables
00:03:37 <drbobrinkman> Bo Brinkman from Miami University. I think I have my homework done, looking forward to meeting everyone.
00:03:47 <JohnRager> I’m John Rager, Amherst College.  I think I’ve done most everything except the most interesting part - C3.
00:04:14 <lorip> I'm Lori Postner from Nassau Community College - I'm part of the POSSE workshop organizers.
00:04:53 <heidie> Super!
00:05:11 <heidie> Let's talk about HFOSS in Courses activities.
00:05:20 <heidie> #topic HFOSS in Courses
00:05:32 <heidie> Hi birgit, Welcome
00:05:38 <heidie> We just got started.
00:05:39 <birgit> Thank you heidie
00:05:48 <birgit> glad i didn't miss too much, had trouble connecitng
00:06:10 <heidie> The second item on our agenda is to talk about what courses we'd like to use HFOSS within.
00:06:20 <heidie> What are people thinking about doing?
00:06:52 <birgit> i think i met most people here but just as a reminder #info I'm an assistant prof at cCal State Long Beach, love mountains, and am thinking of using OpenMRS at the moment.
00:06:54 <heidie> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/FOSS_In_Courses_Activity
00:06:57 <heidie> and
00:07:05 <krish> I was initially thinking of integrating it in our capstone course but am not so sure about it now
00:07:10 <drbobrinkman> Right now I'm focusing on our capstone ... it has become unsustainable anyway (too many students) and I think I see a way to address it using HFOSS.
00:07:23 <heidie> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/FOSS_in_Courses_2
00:07:34 <heidie> krish, What has caused you to reconsider?
00:07:47 <krish> I would like to chat with drbobrinkman about ideas to integrate with capstone
00:08:06 <drbobrinkman> My plan so far is at https://bobrinkman.com/foss-in-courses-2/
00:08:07 <heidie> krish, When are you offering your capstone?
00:08:13 <birgit> Thinking Capstone class as well, and I have two semesters to spread it out on. This one I am struggling with - I can't decide on a bigger task: I want them to get used to doing FOSS and do some introductory issues but then what is the next bigger thing? The next bigger step without overloading them?
00:08:23 <krish> Our capstone course is based on the complete lifecycle and I am not sure how to get the wholistic experience for students
00:08:31 <birgit> (I'll be teaching it Spring and Fall 2017)
00:08:43 <birgit> I have that same problem krish
00:08:49 <krish> I will check it out drbobrinkman
00:09:18 <birgit> How can they do RE and design of some sorts in FOSS before contributing to the source code?
00:09:23 <krish> Ours is a one semester course and I think it is loaded
00:09:26 <heidie> Ah, I have a software engineering course where I have students work on requirements, design, test, etc. with an HFOSS project
00:09:28 <heidie> Would that help?
00:09:39 <krish> YES
00:09:54 <birgit> What do they do on the requirements, for example, heidie?
00:10:04 <krish> The produce a complete SRS
00:10:08 <drbobrinkman> part of my thinking is that the way we do RE and design ... it's just ONE way of doing it. I'm trying to find the analogous processes in FOSS projects
00:10:29 <heidie> birgit, I have yet to find an HFOSS project that has a requirements document.
00:10:41 <heidie> So I have students research the project and create one.
00:10:46 <heidie> I use an IEEE-based template.
00:11:23 <heidie> Ah, in HFOSS projects, the requirements are often embedded in the bug tracker.
00:11:23 <krish> Well in our class the interaction with a client is an important aspect
00:11:30 <heidie> Occassionally there will be a "roadmap"
00:11:48 <birgit> heidie LOL I hear you - but would there be a way of using the issue tracking system to reengineer a requirements document? Or are the databases only started once a project has reached a certain stage/maturity?
00:11:54 <heidie> Oh, that's a fun thing to do!
00:12:25 <birgit> krish - do you work with real industry clients or pretend-clients (e.g. colleagues)?
00:12:34 <heidie> I start with the activity that asks students to observe an IRC channel for a day or so.
00:12:48 <birgit> heidie - you mean #idea reengineering a SRS from a roadmap and issue database?
00:12:52 <krish> almost real clients - on-campus and off, some are indutry and some not
00:13:01 <drbobrinkman> krish: Ours too. But I think you can get a "client" interaction by interacting with the project's community on a regular basis. They are the ones you have to satisfy if you want your pull request accepted.
00:13:02 <heidie> Then I have an activity where I put them in a room on computers and give them a task to do but they can't speak out loud.
00:13:20 <heidie> birgit, Yes, reengineering.
00:13:28 <krish> Interesting!
00:13:33 <heidie> And also from observing the project itself.
00:13:49 <birgit> ok
00:13:52 <heidie> Almost invariably, questions come up about what functionality should actually be there.
00:14:13 <heidie> What I do is to have students create a list of questions that they need in order to complete the SRS.
00:14:28 <heidie> I have all teams submit the set of questions to me and we go over them in class.
00:14:30 <birgit> Then that might actually be a valuable RE task because they are more likely to find themselves in a mess than on a green lawn to start working  on a project :)
00:14:43 <heidie> We then turn around and ask the community about the ones we can't figure out ourselves.
00:14:50 <birgit> ok
00:14:50 <heidie> Right!
00:14:52 <heidie> Exacly!
00:15:44 <heidie> Here is a link to a previous version of the course:
00:15:46 <heidie> #link http://mars.wne.edu/~hellis/CS490/syllabus.html
00:15:51 <krish> I should think about it. I have them develop a use case diagram, analyse functional and non-functional requirements and such.
00:16:01 <heidie> All of the materials are CC licensed so use and modify anything that you'd like to.
00:16:12 <drbobrinkman> krish: Oh, I see. Se do that in another course, so we don't have to stuff it into the capstone.
00:16:16 <drbobrinkman> *we
00:16:24 <heidie> If you send me email, I can also send you a zip file of the document templates.
00:16:50 <krish> That is my thought
00:17:08 <krish> But that means I might not be able to teach the new course until Fall :(
00:17:27 <krish> Thanks heidie I will email you
00:17:33 <heidie> Sure. :-)
00:17:53 <heidie> Another helpful idea is to get one or two students to do an independent study with you to explore a project.
00:18:06 <krish> Yes, I am considering it for summer
00:18:06 <heidie> Get them to figure out how to download and install. Test run assignments on them.
00:18:49 <birgit> heidie helpful for us to experiment with the teaching?
00:18:56 <krish> I am interested in finding out how others are planning to integrate FOSS in other courses
00:19:00 <birgit> the independent study you mean?
00:19:00 <heidie> Yes.
00:19:03 <birgit> ok
00:19:12 <JohnRager> I’m thinking about using HFOSS in my new Machine Learning class, if the enrolment doesn’t climb too far into the sky.
00:19:17 <heidie> And also gives you time to interact with the community.
00:19:30 <heidie> For you to better understand the project yourself and to see how students deal with it.
00:19:37 <heidie> JohnRager, Cool!
00:19:48 <heidie> JohnRager, There are lots of open data sites.
00:20:13 <darci> JohnRager: Do you have a particular project in mind?
00:20:30 <krish> JohnRager: I am wondering if you found a suitable project for your class in your research so far
00:20:54 <JohnRager> I’ve been looking at Ushahidi (because of the pbvious data aspects) but I am still exploring the project.
00:20:55 <birgit> heidie that's a great idea to start with an independent study - now I wish I had more time until I start but I guess I'll dive in at the deep end ;)
00:21:19 <heidie> The general idea is to not try to take on large tasks first. Start with something small.
00:21:23 <krish> We will learn from you birgit :)
00:21:34 <heidie> One or two assignments and then build in it.
00:22:02 <krish> JohnRager: Is Ushahidi still very active?
00:22:55 <JohnRager> A little hard to tell.  It has a lot of users, perhaps not so many developers, but that might be okay since I want them to look at data mining mote than at core development.
00:22:55 <heidie> krish, Yes, it is.
00:23:14 <JohnRager> OpenMRS might also work.
00:23:16 <heidie> WE have a foss2serve team member who is active. Cam McDonald
00:23:27 <heidie> I can put you in contact with him. Again, drop me an email.
00:23:27 <krish> That's good to know
00:23:42 <birgit> As we are speaking and heidie suggests one or two assignments at first, I'm realizing that I could make the Intro to Software Engineering Labs way more interesting using FOSS! Heck yes, way to go, that might also be the more feasible start to get my feet wet, and maybe still let one team do their capstone project in it but not all 5 or 6 teams at o
00:23:42 <birgit> nce.
00:23:48 <heidie> Yes, we're trying to build communities of faculty around projects so that faculty have folks to ask questions to.
00:23:50 <JohnRager> Okay.
00:24:16 <heidie> birgit, Sure, feel free to use any of my software engineering materials you'd like.
00:24:38 <birgit> Thank you very much - I will make sure to look at all of them in detail
00:24:52 <heidie> :-)
00:25:14 <darci> I think you'll find additional activities on foss2serve.
00:25:45 <darci> We've had previous attendees develop activities for the SE course.
00:25:50 <darci> *their
00:26:05 <birgit> ok, yes, still working my way through all those activities
00:26:20 <birgit> is there a thread leading through those activities?
00:26:25 <birgit> That's what I haven't been able to find yet
00:26:53 <birgit> this is also a question for the documentation of our own assignments
00:27:11 <birgit> i don't want to add 'random' wiki pages that people have trouble finding so for now I have everything on my blog
00:27:23 <darci> birgit: Only for some.
00:27:31 <birgit> but i'll be happy to put it on the wiki once it is in shape and once I found a good strcuture of how & where to put it
00:27:34 <birgit> ok
00:27:48 <heidie> birgit, Yes, that would be very helpful!
00:28:23 <birgit> heidie would it make sense to put a course like your up there and then link to the different activities where they are explained in more detail?
00:28:37 <heidie> :-) Yup, it would.
00:28:45 <birgit> Not wanting to cause you more work - just thinking of how I could think of structuring my own work on this and making it available
00:28:48 <birgit> :)
00:28:50 <heidie> Not sure that I'll get to it soon.
00:29:44 <darci> birgit: One thing to consider is that we have funding to support faculty who develop activities that they are willing to share on foss2serve.
00:29:57 <darci> There will be discussion of this at the face-to-face workshop.
00:30:03 <birgit> Nice!
00:30:03 <darci> You should consider it!
00:30:10 <birgit> ok, thank you for that pointer
00:30:20 <krish> That IS a good one!
00:30:36 <darci> We had had faculty develop one or two activities.
00:30:53 <darci> We've also had faculty develop more to be used throughout a course.
00:31:17 <heidie> The goal is to ever improve the materials for faculty.
00:31:22 <birgit> yes
00:32:28 <heidie> Any other questions about HFOSS in Courses?
00:32:33 <heidie> This has been a good discussion.
00:32:41 <heidie> With more to come in Raleigh.
00:32:48 <birgit> Not for now, this was very helpful, thank you!
00:32:52 <krish> Looking forward to it
00:32:53 <darci> Here is an example of a course overview where activities were developed to support it:  http://foss2serve.org/index.php/Software_Quality_Advanced_Course
00:33:22 <birgit> Great! # link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/Software_Quality_Advanced_Course
00:33:29 <birgit> dang... #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/Software_Quality_Advanced_Course
00:33:41 <darci> :)
00:34:30 <heidie> Just a couple of reminders.
00:34:41 <heidie> First, please sign up for one project and one or more courses at:
00:34:50 <heidie> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/Stage2_Groups
00:34:57 <heidie> Second, please provide your travel information at:
00:35:06 <heidie> #link https://titanpad.com/POSSETravel
00:35:21 <heidie> What other questions are there?
00:36:06 <krish> Can I ask a question about logistics
00:36:10 <heidie> Sure!
00:36:38 <krish> Are we required to find a partner for the ride from the airport?
00:36:58 <heidie> We'd like it if folks would ride together to the extent that it makes sense.
00:37:15 <heidie> If you're arriving within 30-45 minutes of someone else, it would cut down on costs.
00:37:28 <heidie> But won't make sense if you're arriving 2 hours before or after everyone else.
00:37:30 <heidie> Does this make sense?
00:37:58 <krish> I will be landing around noon and I don't see anyone else arriving aroud that time
00:38:36 <heidie> Right.
00:38:43 <heidie> It looks like you might be the last arrival?
00:39:00 <krish> I guess so :(
00:39:04 <birgit> You can ask @berea.edu to pick you up? ;)
00:39:21 <birgit> just kidding, I don't know who that is but they said they'd arrive around noon by car
00:39:41 <heidie> Ah, berea is Matt Jadud and he could well be happy to pick you up.
00:39:43 <darci> You might reach out to the three people who are arriving just before 11 and exchange contact information with them just in case someone arrives late.
00:39:44 <heidie> He is very helpful.
00:39:51 <heidie> Ah, good idea.
00:39:53 <birgit> I'll be by myself as well, 3 hour gap on either side
00:39:53 <krish> Well ... more exploring at POSSE I guess ;)
00:42:28 <heidie> Yes. You have Greg and my cell numbers in case something happens.
00:42:35 <heidie> Feel free to text or call either of us.
00:43:10 <krish> Will do. Thanks.
00:43:27 <birgit> ok, thank you so much, looking forward to meeting you all in person
00:43:29 <krish> How long does it take to get to RedHat?
00:43:57 <heidie> krish, about half an hour.
00:44:08 <heidie> We don't start until 2:00 so you should be OK.
00:44:15 <krish> ok
00:44:27 <heidie> We won't have lunch there so please do pick up some lunch along the way.
00:44:36 <krish> Sure
00:44:42 <birgit> ok
00:44:51 <darci> One more reminder about having git installed...
00:44:53 <krish> Is Mariott close enough for me to drop off my baggage?
00:45:02 <darci> krish: yes
00:45:20 <krish> Great
00:45:29 <birgit> git installed, check
00:45:46 <krish> Will do
00:45:48 <birgit> trying to free up space on my hard drive... darn little SSD ;)
00:46:09 <darci> There will be two git activities during the workshop that use git/github.
00:46:41 <heidie> Yes, good catch darci
00:47:02 <darci> I might also add that you should be sure to complete C.3.
00:47:43 <heidie> Yes, please.
00:47:51 <darci> We typically pull ideas from this activity and groups will often work to flesh out one or two of them.
00:48:16 <darci> So having some detail here about what you want to accomplish is really good!
00:48:50 <birgit> So where on the wiki do you want us to post our ideas for C.3? Like I said, for now I'm blogging it bc not sure where it should go and this way I have my notes in one place
00:49:23 <darci> You can put it on your wiki page or on your blog. I think either is fine!
00:49:27 <krish> I have been posting everything on the wiki. Didn;t use my blog after having created it
00:49:29 <birgit> ok thank you
00:50:07 <heidie> krish, Sure, on the wiki is fine as well.
00:50:24 <heidie> We just wanted a way to make your progress transparent.
00:51:24 <darci> And it's fun to have lots of ideas floating around!
00:51:59 <heidie> Right!
00:52:05 <heidie> Any remaining questions?
00:52:30 <krish> Nope. Looking forward to it.
00:52:38 <birgit> same here
00:52:45 <drbobrinkman> See you all soon. :D
00:52:48 <JohnRager> ditto
00:53:25 <heidie> Great! Looking forward to seeing you all in person!
00:53:28 <heidie> Safe travels.
00:53:30 <krish> Thanks. Good night.
00:53:32 <heidie> #endmeeting