18:01:33 <lorip> #startmeeting IRC #3
18:01:33 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Apr 13 18:01:33 2017 UTC.  The chair is lorip. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:01:33 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:01:33 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc_#3'
18:01:49 <lorip> heidie - how do I add you & darci as chairs?
18:02:06 <heidie> Its the #chair <username> command.
18:02:19 <lorip> #chair heidie
18:02:19 <zodbot> Current chairs: heidie lorip
18:02:27 <lorip> #chair darci
18:02:27 <zodbot> Current chairs: darci heidie lorip
18:02:34 <heidie> You have da power!!!
18:02:38 <lorip> here's our agenda
18:02:48 <lorip> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/IRC_Meeting_3
18:03:08 <lorip> let's do a quick roll call - name & institution
18:03:11 <lorip> #topic roll call
18:03:20 <lorip> camm_ will you start us off?
18:03:31 <camm_> Cam Macdonell - MacEwan University (leaving at 12:15, just here to say hi, will be on tonight)
18:03:37 <darci> Darci Burdge, Nassau Community College
18:04:09 <heidie> Heidi Ellis, Western New England University
18:04:14 <mattb> Matt Bernius, independent researcher working with Mozilla on Open Source Campus Clubs
18:04:22 <howardf> howard francis, univ of pikeville (posse alum, not attending this one)
18:05:09 <lorip> jody_ you are up
18:05:12 <jody_> Jody Paul - Metro State Denver
18:05:25 * lintqueen_gina lurks and is on other meeting :-)
18:05:31 <lorip> Lori Postner, Nassau Community College
18:06:15 <lorip> quaid - are you available?
18:07:00 <lorip> ok - let's move on
18:07:21 <lorip> #topic stage 1 progress
18:08:11 <lorip> from my quick assessment I think everyone here is either alum, community, team or only participating in stage 1 - am I correct?
18:08:40 <lorip> hi clare - can you do a quick intro?
18:08:49 * mattb nods
18:09:55 <clare> Clare Tang, from Governors State U at chicago
18:10:07 <lorip> thanks
18:10:30 <lorip> questions about the stage 1 activities?  how's everything going?
18:10:52 <jody_> I found the stage 1 activities to be very useful. Helped me think about integrating into my courses.
18:11:33 <lorip> any problems, issues or questions?
18:11:57 <darci> jody_: Thanks for the feedback!
18:11:59 <OSIMasson> sorry, I got a call
18:12:12 <jody_> Some concerns, primarily associated with "contributing back".
18:12:30 <lorip> no problem OSIMasson
18:12:38 <lorip> can you do a quick intro?
18:12:46 <OSIMasson> lorip: Me?
18:12:58 <lorip> OSIMasson; yes
18:13:31 <OSIMasson> I am the GM at the Open Source Initiative and teach a course at UAlbany, "Open Source Principles and Practices"
18:13:43 <OSIMasson> Hi everyone
18:13:58 <lorip> jody_: what concerns about contributing back?
18:14:10 <lorip> hi becka - can you do a quick intro?
18:14:18 <becka> Sure
18:14:30 <becka> sorry I am late. did not know about the meeting
18:14:42 <jody_> It's a concern about external project work in general, raised when participation in some specific project(s) is required as part of a course; even more so if such participation is part of a required course. The concern is whether students should have a say in determining if their own work is (a) to be made "public" and (b) to be used by others.
18:14:46 <becka> I am a prof at Western Oregon University
18:14:56 <lorip> becka: oops, my bad, perhaps I didn't have you on the list?
18:15:25 <becka> I teach a full course in FOSS dev to seniors as an elective, of which they need three for graduation
18:15:40 <lorip> jody_: excellent questions/issues - this runs into FERPA issues at some schools as well
18:15:49 <becka> I am currently teaching that course
18:15:57 <becka> done :-)
18:16:21 * heidie thinks Whoa! Becka showed up. How cool is that!
18:16:36 <jody_> Another issue arises is that many of the licenses that permit others to use a student's work (a) without attribution or (b) for commercial use without their explicit permission. I would not be comfortable with requiring the contribution of students in projects with such licenses.
18:16:42 <becka> Pretty darned cool!!!!
18:16:45 <lorip> is anyone willing to discuss how they have handled the public nature of the work in their classes?
18:17:10 <heidie> :-)
18:17:10 <becka> I teach the course as an elective
18:17:22 <becka> There is the good with the bad
18:17:29 <heidie> jody_, It sounds like you need a project with the right license.
18:17:49 <darci> jody_: you certainly want them to understand the benefits of their work being public and used by others
18:17:54 <becka> The public nature of the contributions also means that they have real world experience that can go on their resume
18:18:47 <jody_> Yep.  The benefits are clear and easy to articulate.  The problem is with "requiring" students to do something with their intellectual property that they may not agree with.
18:18:49 <lorip> I haven't heard of anyone having issues where students didn't want their work public, for many it is a positive
18:18:59 <mattb> From interviews with students who were involved in Open Source projects as part of co-ops and internships, the public-ness of the code was very important for them because they could show "real work" to future employers.
18:19:05 <heidie> jody_, Yes, the argument that I use is that the tradeoff of having public artifacts is better than privacy.
18:19:15 <heidie> As long as the grading isn't public that is.
18:19:27 <clare> I have the issue that students want to use github private repository as they do not want the world to see before it is in good shape. But the private repository is not free, right?
18:19:32 <heidie> Right, this is typically an administration issue, not a student issue.
18:19:37 <becka> jody_ are you teaching this as a required class?
18:19:45 <heidie> clare, I do not believe so.
18:20:06 <lorip> clare: you can request private repositories as a college prof
18:20:10 <heidie> And students can use git locally on their machines and then upload to github when they're satisfied.
18:20:11 <darci> clare: I have an organization on GitHub and can create private repos within the organzation
18:20:20 * quaid just noticed his IRC connection was dropped but it still lurking
18:20:27 <jody_> Yes, the intent is tot use in required classes.  But even "elective" classes are somewhat "required" in that students need to have a specified number of them and may not have a large number of choices.
18:20:54 <becka> jody_ got it
18:21:02 <lorip> for most projects the code must be accepted, so it won't be public until it has been vetted (correct me if I am wrong on this)
18:21:29 <becka> I have never had a student object to the public nature of things, but that is also what I use as a selling point for the class
18:21:42 <jody_> We run a GitLab service (and subversion and even CVS) on university systems.
18:21:58 <clare> darci: I'll try that.
18:22:05 <becka> lorip I have had patches be submitted in a public forums
18:22:32 <lorip> thanks for chiming in becka!
18:22:37 <mattb> Interesting Becka...
18:22:51 <lorip> clare: here's the link for github education
18:22:54 <lorip> #link https://education.github.com/
18:23:56 <clare> lorip: thanks!
18:24:01 <OSIMasson> jody_: I recognize your issue. Have you checked with your campus about this? I would expect that some may view this similarly to post a students work/grade in public which I believe would violate FERPA regulations. However I wonder is there is an analogy here more akin to a drama or music major who performs in a play or concert?
18:24:20 <OSIMasson> posting
18:25:30 <jody_> For now, I think there's enough benefit to requiring students to "use" the project's resources and leave it as optional (non-scored) whether they wish to "contribute" back.
18:25:31 <OSIMasson> jody_: If the course is dependent on student participation in the project, versus a grade for the quality of the code submitted, I wonder if that makes a difference
18:25:45 <lorip> let's move on to discussing the foss in courses activities
18:26:33 <lorip> please give a quick synopsis of how you plan to use foss in your course
18:27:14 <clare> one thing I found reading wiki is like "depth first search" with no way to the leaf. should I tell students stop reading after, say 2 levels down?
18:27:14 <lorip> clare, jody, OSIMasson - any of you willing to jump in?
18:27:14 <heidie> clare, What courses are you thinking of using HFOSS in?
18:27:34 <heidie> clare, Sure, feel free to bound the reading in whatever way makes sense
18:27:51 <heidie> You could indicate specific pages to read if you wanted.
18:27:53 <clare> software engineering and graduate capstone
18:28:25 <heidie> jody_, I also note that getting code contributed back within one term/semester is really hard.
18:28:45 <heidie> Students are just about getting up to speed by the end of 15 weeks unless you yourself are fully immersed in the project.
18:28:58 <heidie> clare, Ah, good courses!
18:29:07 <heidie> clare, Any thoughts on how you'll include HFOSS?
18:29:49 <clare> I will definitely pick HFOSS for graduate capstone projects.
18:30:02 <clare> signed up on openMRS
18:30:09 <heidie> Good1
18:30:09 <OSIMasson> heidie: Yes, I have students reference FOSS projects to find common attributes, shared practices and core principles
18:30:33 <heidie> Here is the syllabus for an undergraduate SE course I taught using HFOSS in 2014:
18:30:36 <heidie> #link http://mars.wne.edu/~hellis/CS490/index%20fa14.html
18:30:44 <heidie> Schedule:
18:30:45 <heidie> #link http://mars.wne.edu/~hellis/CS490/syllabus%20fa14.html
18:30:57 <heidie> OSIMasson, :-) Yup, right!
18:31:40 <OSIMasson> heidie: Obviously the technical aspects allow students opportunities to develop coding skills, technical practices, etc. but many of these students may not know how to "manage" a project
18:31:49 <mattb> Nice project OSIMasson.
18:32:07 <heidie> OSIMasson, Agreed. And soft skills are also not on their radar, typically.
18:32:14 <OSIMasson> heidie: My students include CS/Eng majors, but also business majors, communications, informatics, etc.
18:32:25 <heidie> Oh! Nice! Interdisciplinary!
18:32:36 <heidie> OSIMasson, Is your course online?
18:32:42 <lorip> OSIMasson - very cool!
18:32:51 <OSIMasson> heidie: Many of these students (hopefully) will be scoring sweet jobs at RedHat, and maybe not in technical roles.
18:33:41 <lorip> additional thoughts on foss in courses/planning?
18:33:47 <OSIMasson> heidie: Community managers, project/product managers, etc. who need to understand how open source communities of practices work and how to cultivate participation, contribution, etc.
18:34:06 <OSIMasson> </blabbing>
18:34:22 <darci> Not at all... :)
18:34:57 <heidie> Very cool!
18:34:58 <lorip> as part of your planning on how to incorporate HFOSS, please make sure you sign up for the stage 2 groups
18:35:15 <lorip> you should sign up for 1 project and at least 1 course
18:35:25 <lorip> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/Stage2_Groups
18:35:57 * lorip should I move on, or pause for a moment?
18:37:10 <lorip> ok - let's move on
18:37:22 <lorip> #topic Stage 2 in SF
18:37:48 <lorip> if you haven't already entered your arrival/departure times in the google doc, please do so
18:37:59 <lorip> any questions about local arrangements?
18:38:35 <heidie> The schedule for stage 2 is here:
18:38:37 <heidie> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/Stage_2_Activities
18:38:38 <darci> lorip: should arrival/departure times be in the google doc or the titanpad?
18:38:51 <heidie> Google doc as titan pad is going away.
18:39:03 <heidie> I've updated the foss2serve agenda so refresh the page?
18:39:12 <darci> I'll update the agenda...
18:39:23 <darci> ok...nvmd! :)
18:39:24 <heidie> darci, Thank you!
18:39:25 <lorip> thanks!
18:39:38 <mattb> Can you reshare the link to the google doc?
18:40:02 <lorip> greg will be sending out a email with specifics, but the general idea is if you are in early enough to meet at the hotel
18:40:14 <lorip> otherwise go directly to google
18:40:18 <heidie> #link ://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NKIMzPAD4s3MDazsdk2jlLO1sJUPzoFc-Qv_slKN6H8
18:40:18 <darci> #link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NKIMzPAD4s3MDazsdk2jlLO1sJUPzoFc-Qv_slKN6H8/edit#gid=0
18:40:23 <heidie> :-)
18:40:26 <mattb> thnx!
18:40:27 <heidie> Like minds and all that.
18:40:34 <darci> :)
18:40:43 <heidie> The idea is to leave the hotel by 1:30 to travel as a group to the Google office.
18:40:49 <darci> Should folks also include airline and flight number?
18:40:51 <clare> how the share ride from / to airport works? We contact each other or some meeting location from certain time slot?
18:41:02 <heidie> There are multiple ways to get there via public transportation.
18:41:07 <lorip> before you arrive, please make sure you have Git installed on your laptop as we will be using it during Stage 2
18:41:32 <heidie> darci, and clare Folks should enter their arrival times including flight number and airline.
18:41:33 <lorip> also, we will be using the C.3 activity, so please have that completed as well
18:41:59 <heidie> I've just added a columnn for cell phone number.
18:42:12 <heidie> The best way to get from SFO to downtown is the BART system.
18:42:24 <heidie> (Bay Area Regional Transport)
18:42:25 <lorip> we would be happy to answer any questions people have as they get closer to finishing up the activities
18:42:36 <heidie> It goes right from the airport to within a block of the hotel.
18:42:45 <heidie> Details on that will be in the arrangements email.
18:43:13 <lorip> also, make sure you keep original receipts of everything as you will need it for reimbursement
18:43:20 <darci> clare: having everyone's arrival times allows you to connect with someone else and travel downtown together
18:43:26 <lorip> heidie - what did I miss?
18:43:35 <heidie> I think you got it!
18:43:54 <heidie> The hotel rooms are all arranged as is the foot.
18:43:54 <lorip> any other questions/thoughts/comments?
18:43:56 <heidie> "food"
18:44:15 <heidie> clare, Did you get the part about having git installed before you arrive?
18:44:33 <clare> got it. will enter my flight number and arrival/departure time
18:44:46 <lorip> we are looking forward to meeting everyone face to face next week
18:44:47 <heidie> clare, Good! One of the activities we're doing on the first day uses git.
18:44:50 <heidie> Yes!
18:44:52 <heidie> Definitely!
18:45:07 <lorip> jody_ sorry you won't be joining us this time, but hopefully next time :)
18:45:24 <lorip> ping any of us if you have questions
18:45:29 <jody_> Likewise! :)
18:45:37 <lorip> safe travels...
18:45:42 <darci> bye all!
18:45:54 <jody_> Ciao
18:45:55 <lorip> bye, I'll be ending the meetbot now
18:45:58 <OSIMasson> Thanks all - *see* you all soon
18:46:04 <heidie> Bye all!
18:46:05 <lorip> #endmeeting