18:00:50 <kussmaul> #startmeeting IRC 1.2
18:00:50 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Sep 28 18:00:50 2017 UTC.  The chair is kussmaul. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:50 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:50 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc_1.2'
18:00:55 <hislopg> Hong: yes
18:01:01 <kussmaul> hello everyone!
18:01:06 <hongjiang> thanks
18:01:13 <kussmaul> #link Agenda: http://foss2serve.org/index.php/IRC_Meeting_1
18:01:22 <kussmaul> this is a link to the agenda on the wiki
18:01:35 <kussmaul> we'll start with introductions
18:01:39 <kussmaul> #topic introductions
18:01:54 <kussmaul> #info Clif Kussmaul, Muhlenberg College, one of the foss2serve team members
18:02:09 <hislopg> #info I'm Greg Hislop and I'm a faculty member at Drexel University in Philadelphia.  I'm one of the organizers of POSSE.
18:02:15 <kussmaul> pleasee introduce yourself in a similar way, starting from the top of the list o fparticipants (alphabetical)
18:02:30 <Nwokeji001> Joshua Nwokeji, Gannon University
18:02:52 <jding> Junhua Ding, East Carolina University
18:02:55 <kussmaul> #info Joshua Nwokeji, Gannon University
18:03:08 <kussmaul> the #info tag will record this as an item in the meeting minutes
18:03:09 <jdehlinger> #info I'm Josh Dehlinger, a faculty member at Towson University and a POSSE 2015 alum
18:03:13 <Joe_W1> #info Joe Welch Central Texas College; Teach Intro Programming/CS1/CS2
18:03:15 <hongjiang> #info Hong Jiang, Benedict College
18:03:33 <jding> #info Junhua Ding, East Carolina University
18:04:09 <carterh> #info Hank Carter, Villanova University
18:04:23 * lintqueen_gina missed the instructions, so just chiming in
18:04:25 <rcd> Robert Duvall, Duke University here
18:04:27 <kussmaul> we may have some people lurking (listening but not participating) or AFK (away from keyboard)
18:04:39 <lintqueen_gina> #info Gina Likins, Red Hat
18:05:27 <lintqueen_gina> (or always having IRC open in a window but only looking at it when someone specifically pings her)
18:05:28 <kussmaul> (waiting a few more seconds for anyone else to chime in)
18:05:34 <hislopg> Hi Robert!
18:05:44 <kussmaul> who is using IRC for the first time?
18:05:51 <jding> me
18:05:58 <Joe_W1> It has been some time...
18:06:44 <kussmaul> we are using a tool called MeetBot to record meeting minutes - it will generate a full log and a summary
18:06:49 <hongjiang> me too
18:06:52 <carterh> Haven't used it since the lab switched to Slack :(
18:07:10 <kussmaul> I started the meeting so I'm the chair - feel free to add #info or #links that others may find useful
18:07:25 <Nwokeji001> I am new to IRC
18:07:55 <kussmaul> mostly with IRC we can just write text to the group, but there are a few useful commands (in the agenda)
18:08:31 <kussmaul> I can direct a message to someone by starting with their nickname, so
18:08:39 <kussmaul> hislopg: are you there?
18:08:47 <hislopg> here
18:09:08 <hislopg> Clif's message caused a ping on my IRC client
18:09:20 <kussmaul> and I can refer to people by their nickname - glikins works at RedHat and is awesome!
18:09:29 <hislopg> so I would be alerted even if not on the IRC screen
18:09:42 <kussmaul> any questions about basic IRC use, or Meetbot?
18:09:56 <lintqueen_gina> awwwwwe thaanks kussmaul
18:10:14 <rcd> Good to be back with POSSE folks!
18:10:45 <kussmaul> different IRC clients have different interfaces & features - I use pidgin. what do other people use?
18:10:58 <Joe_W1> Hexchat
18:11:06 <Nwokeji001> I use Colloquy
18:11:16 <hongjiang> Colloquy
18:11:18 <carterh> irssi
18:11:22 <hislopg> Chatzilla or Hexchat
18:12:01 <kussmaul> I once had a CS student use pidgin and an open source speech synthesis system to build a tool that would speak the names (and messages) from people who contacted her
18:12:56 <kussmaul> any comments or feedback on IRC clients - things you especially like or dislike?
18:13:31 <jding> I used web client, seems no sound
18:14:06 <carterh> I use a command line client so I can leave it idle in a tmux session
18:14:21 <kussmaul> #topic IRC & Meetbot
18:14:34 <kussmaul> I tihnk I forgot to change the topic :-(
18:15:09 <kussmaul> not hearing other questions or comments on IRC, I guess we can move on?
18:15:29 <Joe_W1> Good by me...
18:15:37 <carterh> I'm good
18:15:42 <lintqueen_gina> potentially helpful, BTW: http://teachingopensource.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/opensourcedotcom-irc-cheatsheet.pdf
18:16:01 <kussmaul> #topic Discussion of HFOSS Projects
18:16:45 <kussmaul> one key thing to think about over the next few week is which HFOSS project(s) might work well for your course(s).
18:17:45 <kussmaul> you don't have to make a final decision but it will be easier to think about classroom activities, assignments, larger assignments, etc. if you have a specific project in mind
18:18:04 <kussmaul> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/HFOSS_Projects
18:18:17 <kussmaul> is a list of some projects that people have worked with in the past
18:18:56 <kussmaul> who has started thinking about this? any experirences or insights to share?
18:20:13 <kussmaul> there are a bunch of factors to consider
18:20:50 <kussmaul> and we'll explore some of them in the face-to-face workshop in November
18:21:09 <hislopg> I'd also note that if you haven't made a pick yet, that's fine - but we hope the stage 1 activities will move you in that direction
18:21:29 <jdehlinger> as a POSSE alum, i have worked with #link https://www.ushahidi.com/ and have had great experience interacting with their community and working with their software for local efforts
18:21:58 <Joe_W1> Is there an indicator of activity/effort level - or should I look for stats on GitHub?
18:23:21 <kussmaul> it helps to work with a project with a friendly and responsive community - if you & your students get stuck and noone is able/willing to answer, it can be frustrating
18:23:36 <kussmaul> good question, joe_W1
18:24:10 <rcd> I went outside the bounds and worked with Sakai, the CMS preferred by our university.  The community was very helpful and excited to work with our students.
18:25:03 <kussmaul> some of the stage 1 activities (FOSS Field Trip, Project Evaluation) are intended to help you explore a project and assess activity/effort and other factors
18:25:16 <Joe_W1> Thanks
18:26:33 <kussmaul> rcd brings up another factor - a project that has some "hook" that will appeal to students & teachers - something used on your campus, or in the local community (some people are looking at software to support a local foodbank), etc
18:27:07 <kussmaul> other comments or questions?
18:27:21 <rcd> Absolutely.  The fact that their changes and fixes would be seen by students the next semester was VERY motivating.
18:29:25 <kussmaul> other factors: what you hope students will do (submit or update bugs/feature requests, contribute code, improve documentation, etc) and student experience level and technical skills (will they need to learn a new language or API?)
18:30:49 <kussmaul> I've had some good experiences with projects that have addon/plugin systems, so students can write something small and self-contained that does something useful, rather than trying to wrap their arms around more of the architecture and code before they can do much
18:32:47 <kussmaul> other thoughts or questions? carterh? honhjiang? jding? Jody_? Joe_W1? Nwokeji001?
18:33:02 <Joe_W1> No...
18:33:40 <hongjiang> Considering the curriculum, are there any projects ranked from entry level to higher level?
18:34:29 <hislopg> Hong: match to student level tends to vary more by type or participation rather than choice of project
18:34:32 <kussmaul> good question, hongjiang! I don't know of a specific ranking. Do you, hislopg?
18:34:51 <kussmaul> (agreed)
18:34:55 <hislopg> We haven't tried to rank project by student level
18:35:09 <Nwokeji001> I am not much of a programmer, my interest is in software requirements development
18:35:40 <carterh> This is pretty new to me! I am trying to get my students to take on a more structured and iterative approach to software development, so I'm hoping that they'll pick that up by seeing how FOSS is developed. Still sort of exploring the projects that are available.
18:35:46 <jding> I would like try in my classes
18:35:47 <Nwokeji001> Stuffs like: Use case analysis, data modeling, business process, etc
18:35:51 <kussmaul> Nwokeji001, you & your students could develop requirements for new features - very useful for the project
18:36:13 <Nwokeji001> Okay, thanks
18:36:26 <kussmaul> carterh, remember the old line about fans of sausage and the law not wanting to know how they are actually made? :-)
18:37:17 <kussmaul> but seriously, yes, it's good for students to see how real software is made, for better and worse
18:37:20 <Nwokeji001> In addition, my students have been working on requirements for an integrated attendance monitoring systems (which is lacking in most LMS). I would like a new HFOSS project that will develop this.
18:38:10 <Nwokeji001> Any opportunity for such new HFOSS projects?
18:38:19 <kussmaul> in CS1 and CS2 I tell students several stories about how work on real projects (coding, sysadmin, etc) led me to aha! moments about documentation and testing
18:38:51 <carterh> kussmaul I could use more aha! moments in my programming class
18:39:14 <lintqueen_gina> Nwokeji001: when you say “new” - are you meaning developing from scratch or finding one that POSSE hasn’t used before?
18:39:24 <rcd> In general, most projects have a variety of levels of work.  I would look at language, support, and your goals before trying to look specifically for entry level projects.  For most students, any open source project will be a stretch both in size and in seeing “real world” code for the first time.  Trying to sheild them from that is almost impossible.
18:41:34 <kussmaul> joining an existing project vs. starting a new one depends in part on your pedagogical goals - in an existing project, students will have to read & understand existing code, adapt to norms of a community, interact with other people - experts, novices, users, etc. This may be farther from what they've done in the past, but closer to what they will likely do when they graduate
18:41:38 <Nwokeji001> lintqueen_gina: Developing from scratch. I may be wrong, but I havent seen any other HFOSS project that relates to attendance monitoring system.
18:42:03 <kussmaul> if you start a new project, you don't have any of that history/culture/codebase, etc. to build on
18:42:45 <kussmaul> and repositories like github and sourceforge are full of projects that someone started and that never got off the ground.
18:43:28 <kussmaul> Nwokeji001: consider adding attendance monitoring to an existing LMS - Moodle, Sakai, etc.
18:43:30 <lintqueen_gina> adding onto what kussmaul said: you also miss the potential for interaction with professionals (contacts, best practices, etc.)
18:45:36 <kussmaul> I say this in every faculty workshop I lead - each of you is the expert on your course, students, and institution. As workshop leaders, we can tell you what has worked (or not) for us and for people we know, but we can't really prescribe what you must or must not do.
18:46:28 <kussmaul> other questions or comments? sometimes a good question gets lost in a flood of discussion, so don't be shy about repeating something if noone responded
18:46:58 <lintqueen_gina> I know RCOS has an attendance monitoring system — and wes turner is at rcos … perhaps adding to their project/integrating it into an LMS would be an intermediate step
18:47:08 <lintqueen_gina> (RCOS = RPI)
18:47:51 <lintqueen_gina> and wes turner is coming to this POSSE (that said, I’d encourage you to work with an existing open source project :-)
18:47:58 <kussmaul> another idea for software requirements is to have students reverse engineer requirements docs for an existing project, especially if the project doesn't have such docs.
18:48:30 <kussmaul> I love the paper by Parnas and Clement - A Rational Design Process: How and Why to Fake It
18:49:19 <kussmaul> hearing no other urgent Qs at the moment, we'll move on to
18:49:24 <kussmaul> topic: Good of the Order
18:49:31 <kussmaul> #topic: Good of the Order
18:49:47 <kussmaul> which includes final questions, reminders, etc.
18:50:36 <kussmaul> Please remember that attendance & reimbursement for Stage 2 (in Raleigh) depends on you completing all Stage 1 activities.  :-)
18:50:54 <kussmaul> hislopg: any final notes?
18:51:18 <kussmaul> or advice from glikins, jdehlinger, rcd, or others?
18:51:45 <hislopg> Everyone should have gotten an email with a wiki User ID and password
18:52:01 <Joe_W1> I have not yet - would you please resend...
18:52:11 <hislopg> you'll need that for the activities so let me know if you have problems... but check your spam folder first
18:52:35 <Joe_W1> Thanks - did check spam...
18:52:41 <hislopg> Joe_Wl: you should have an ID from when  you attended POSSE
18:52:53 <Joe_W1> Will check - thanks!
18:52:54 <jdehlinger> the only advice i'd have is to really invest a lot of time into looking at the HFOSS projects, the communities beforehand so that you understand the culture and make sure it is a good fit for your class.
18:54:37 <hislopg> If there are no more questions or comments it sounds like we can wrap up the meeting.
18:54:52 <kussmaul> joe_E1: I think your id is Joe.welch (capital J, lower w)
18:54:57 <kussmaul> OK - thank you everyone, it's been nice chatting and I look forward to more interactions via IRC, email, and F2F in Raleigh.
18:55:00 <Joe_W1> thanks!
18:55:06 <carterh> Thank you!
18:55:11 <hongjiang> Thanks
18:55:17 <Joe_W1> Thanks for the time and information!
18:55:20 <hislopg> if you haven't seen one, check out the links posted by zodbot after Clif ends the meeting
18:55:29 <kussmaul> #endmeeting