13:00:43 <lpostner> #startmeeting POSSE IRC Meeting 2
13:00:44 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Oct 16 13:00:43 2017 UTC.  The chair is lpostner. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:00:44 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
13:00:44 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'posse_irc_meeting_2'
13:00:56 <lpostner> #chair hislopg jdehlinger
13:00:56 <zodbot> Current chairs: hislopg jdehlinger lpostner
13:01:16 <lpostner> Hi all, welcome to the second IRC meeting for POSSE! :)
13:01:23 <lpostner> Here is a link to the agenda for today's meeting.
13:01:29 <lpostner> #link agenda http://foss2serve.org/index.php/IRC_Meeting_2
13:01:33 <lpostner> Before we begin, we should take roll.
13:01:38 <lpostner> #topic Roll Call
13:01:43 <lpostner> If you are participating in today's meeting, please #info your name and institution.  For example,
13:01:48 <lpostner> #info Lori Postner, Nassau Community College
13:01:52 <lpostner> Let's go through everyone alphabetically by nick.
13:02:01 <lpostner> ajan: will you start?
13:02:57 * lpostner maybe ajan is away, let's move on to bburd
13:03:11 <bburd> #info Barry Burd, Drew University
13:03:14 <carterh> #info Hank Carter, Villanova University
13:03:23 <jdehlinger> #info Josh Dehlinger, Towson University
13:03:46 <suhaibobeidat> #info Suhaib Obeidat, Bloomfield College
13:03:48 <jsnow_> #info  Julia Bell, Walters State Community College
13:03:54 <ktstolee> #info Katie Stolee, NC State University
13:03:56 <kussmaul> #info Clif Kussmaul, Muhlenberg College, OpenPath team member, lurking on this chat
13:04:07 <mhills> #info Mark Hills, East Carolina University
13:04:37 <lpostner> I think that is everyone, correct?
13:04:44 <lpostner> welcome!
13:04:54 <lpostner> #topic Updates and Questions on POSSE stage 1 activities
13:05:00 <lpostner> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/Stage_1_Activities
13:05:06 <lpostner> How are folks doing on stage 1 activities?
13:05:30 <bburd> Learning a lot.
13:05:46 <lpostner> that's great!
13:05:48 <carterh> Great! I'm confident with the tools, just spending my extra time looking over the existing projects
13:06:30 <lpostner> Any problems or questions?
13:06:43 <bburd> Time doesn’t permit me to read everything as carefully as I’d like.
13:06:58 * lpostner yes, I get that!
13:07:08 <mhills> I would agree, I think some of the time estimates are a bit optimistic.
13:07:24 <suhaibobeidat> I think so too
13:07:33 <jsnow_> a little behind, hope to catch up before the bridge
13:07:38 <lpostner> mhills - if you could put any specifics in the spreadsheet that would be helpful for us
13:07:49 <suhaibobeidat> I wish the activities were posted couple of months ahead so one can take their time
13:07:52 <mhills> I noted it in a few places with my activity comments.
13:08:07 <lpostner> mhills - thank you
13:09:02 * lpostner thinking should I wait for other comments or move on?
13:09:34 <suhaibobeidat> I have a question but about stage 2, is this the time for it or I should wait
13:09:56 <lpostner> suhaiobeidat - give me 1 minute to change the topic
13:10:00 <lpostner> Also, please remember to log your progress through the activities in the following Google sheet:
13:10:05 <lpostner> #link POSSE Activity Evaluation
13:10:10 <suhaibobeidat> I did
13:10:11 <lpostner> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1igSyZ7wWXmlmqqgvtWTJqvsFj2wsQHVJW2qAGjnmFpA/edit#gid=0
13:10:22 <lpostner> #topic Courses in which you plan to use HFOSS
13:10:29 <lpostner> What courses do people plan to incorporate HFOSS into?
13:11:02 <lpostner> oops - stage 2 is the next topic, sorry suhaibobeidat
13:11:48 <lpostner> are people planning on intro courses, software engineering, special topics?
13:11:55 <bburd> I have to find out how the HFOSS process works to find out what courses would be a good fit.
13:12:09 <jdehlinger> a former POSSE participant, i have incorporated HFOSS and some of these activities in an intro software engineering course, a software quality assurance class and some independent study projects
13:12:27 <bburd> Obviously, Software Engineering, but maybe others too.
13:12:27 <lpostner> bburd - that makes sense - do you teach a wide range of levels?
13:12:37 <bburd> I do.
13:13:02 <suhaibobeidat> I would like to use it my capstone if I gain enough confidence over the coming few weeks
13:13:10 <lpostner> how about everyone else?  do you have specific courses in mind?
13:13:18 <mhills> Software engineering definitely
13:13:34 <ktstolee> Software testing
13:13:39 <lpostner> capstone is a popular choice (as is software engineering)
13:13:48 <jsnow_> capstone / special topics
13:13:49 <carterh> I'd like to expose my programming II students, but don't expect them to really contribute.  I am more interested in getting my students in networking to build some network applications
13:14:09 <lpostner> ktstolee testing is interesting, I'll have to ask around if we know of anyone who has done that already
13:14:36 <jdehlinger> I have for a few years now...and i'd be happy to share my experience with katie
13:14:43 <mhills> We are doing some big changes in our programs, so probably other courses as well, but some of that may be more code reading, not contributing (e.g., lower-level courses where they are seeing what real systems look like, maybe making some changes in context, we probably won’t have group projects where they are contributing back at that point)
13:15:08 <lpostner> carterh - we have people who have used HFOSS in CS 2 to look at code examples, learn some git - you should speak to Darci when you are in Raleigh as she has been working on that
13:15:32 <ktstolee> jdehlinger thanks! I’m designing separate courses at the undergrad and PhD levels.
13:15:32 <carterh> OK! I'll make a note to do that, thanks
13:15:46 <lpostner> sounds like people have some ideas which is great!
13:16:17 <mhills> lpostner: that (HFOSS in CS 2) sounds relevant for us as well
13:16:36 <bburd> Has anyone introduced HFOSS in CS 1?
13:16:38 <lpostner> over the years we've have people use it in a wide range of courses and if you let us know your thoughts we can try to put you in contact with people who may be able to help
13:16:57 <lpostner> bburd - that is what I will be working on during my sabbatical next semester
13:17:12 <lpostner> I've done a few homework assignments, but nothing substantial
13:17:36 <lpostner> what language do you use in CS 1?  we use Java which has been one of the problems I've run up against
13:17:56 <lpostner> I'm still trying to find a Java project of the right size & scope for CS 1
13:17:59 <bburd> Python for CS 0, then Java for CS 1
13:18:24 <lpostner> hi ajan - welcome!  can you do a quick intro?  just name and institution
13:18:26 <bburd> We’re also experimenting with JavaScript for CS 0
13:19:20 <lpostner> two of our group members (heidi and darci) are currently working on a JavaScript project with Mozilla dev tools - you will hear more about that in stage 2
13:19:41 <lpostner> other thoughts on courses?
13:19:59 <lpostner> ok - moving on...
13:20:03 <lpostner> #topic Stage 2 Activities
13:20:08 <lpostner> We have a draft agenda posted here.  It will be updated, but it will give you an idea of the face-to-face workshop.
13:20:15 <lpostner> #link Stage 2 http://foss2serve.org/index.php/Stage_2_Activities
13:20:25 <lpostner> questions about Stage 2?
13:21:14 <suhaibobeidat> I downloaded the chrome extension, which gives the project size. The size is given in MB (250 for OpenMRS), but how many lines of code is that?
13:21:25 <mhills> I hadn’t started yet, but I assume I’ll have some as I go. One initial question, though — are the groups the same? #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/Stage2_Groups
13:21:53 <mhills> Just curious since they don’t line up exactly with the projects we looked at as part of Stage 1
13:22:10 <lpostner> suhaibobeidat: OpenMRS is big - I don't know how many lines are in the core, but it is big
13:22:37 <lpostner> but OpenMRS also has modules as well as a mobile app which I believe are smaller in scope
13:22:49 <suhaibobeidat> I guess my question is what size ranges are considered what
13:23:00 <suhaibobeidat> in MBs
13:23:01 <mhills> I think Blockly sounds fun, just not sure if that is available
13:23:38 <lpostner> mhills - the projects are somewhat driven by participant interest
13:23:56 <lpostner> if there are a number of people interested in blockly then it is likely to be a group
13:24:29 <mhills> lpostner okay, great
13:24:32 <lpostner> I should say *more* likely
13:24:43 <lintqueen_gina> hi all   :-)
13:24:58 <lpostner> we have people who have knowledge of specific projects (which is the top group) but we realize that those may or may not work for everyone
13:25:31 <lpostner> I'm *hoping* to have a few students work on blockly this semester as it is one I am interested in, but I don't know much about it yet :)
13:25:42 <lpostner> hi gina - can you introduce yourself?
13:26:47 <lpostner> as mhills pointed out we have a link for groups
13:27:02 <lpostner> and we would like to set groups before we meet in Raleigh and have a page where you can sign up.  We ask that you sign up for a course as well as a project.
13:27:09 <lpostner> #link Groups http://foss2serve.org/index.php/Stage2_Groups
13:27:38 <lpostner> these are not set in stone, but help us to get a sense of people's interests
13:27:57 <mhills> okay
13:28:43 * lpostner give people a few minutes to go back and look at the agenda as well as the groups page
13:29:27 * lpostner thinking am I going too fast?  do people need time to catch up?
13:29:53 <carterh> I'm OK! No questions about Stage 2 yet.
13:29:55 <lpostner> lintqueen_gina: are you available to do a quick intro?
13:30:03 <mhills> The pace is fine, thanks.
13:30:07 <bburd> I’m still scanning/reading the Stage 2 page…
13:30:37 <mhills> Are the groups carrying over from earlier? I saw the page hadn’t been edited since the summer, so I’m assuming these are from the last meeting.
13:30:52 <mhills> (i.e., are the people there still involved, or are we starting afresh)
13:31:04 <lpostner> try reloading it mhills - greg updated it this morning
13:31:31 <lpostner> groups start fresh each POSSE because it is geared for those at the actual workshop
13:31:43 <mhills> lpostner thanks, I must have opened it just before that
13:31:51 <lpostner> :)
13:32:23 <lintqueen_gina> hi — multi-tasking, per norm
13:33:24 * lintqueen_gina :what do you want to know?  Extrovert, former high school teacher, current Red Hatter, compulsive crafter
13:33:40 <lpostner> how about name and what you do at Red Hat? :)
13:35:33 * lpostner gina must be busy...
13:35:46 <lpostner> other questions, comments, thoughts?
13:35:48 <suhaibobeidat> I’m still waiting for an answer
13:36:04 <lpostner> I'm sorry, please remind me of the question
13:36:05 <suhaibobeidat> Unless this is rehtorical
13:36:31 <suhaibobeidat> Given size in MBs, what range is considered small, medium, etc.
13:36:31 <lpostner> I must have missed it...
13:36:32 <bburd> I have a question about Stage 2….
13:37:15 <lpostner> suhaibobeidat - I don't have a good answer for that - kussmaul or jdehlinger do you?
13:38:23 <jdehlinger> well, software engineering textbooks typically say small projects are anything below 500k LOC
13:38:31 <kussmaul> I don't know of exact ranges. Size of code is often not proportional to size of project, since projects contain non-code - docs, images, video tutorials, etc, etc
13:39:03 <suhaibobeidat> So how useful then is the extension in judging a project
13:39:47 <lpostner> kussmaul or jdehlinger?
13:39:49 <kussmaul> "all models are wrong, some models are useful" - George Box
13:40:36 <lpostner> suhaibobeidat - I will throw this question out to our team and see if I can get you an better answer
13:40:42 <lpostner> bburd - what was your question?
13:40:43 <jdehlinger> lpostner - i only know by LOC from literature
13:40:44 <bburd> What’s the role of the projects listed in http://www.foss2serve.org/index.php/HFOSS_Communities versus the projects listed in http://foss2serve.org/index.php/Stage2_Groups?
13:40:57 <kussmaul> extension can be helpful for a quick evaluation, but at some point you have to dig into the project look at the code, and decide how accessible it will be for your students
13:41:14 <suhaibobeidat> Ok thanks
13:41:43 <mhills> lpostner just a correction — still working on stage 1, done with part A (got parts and stages confused, oops), working on part B
13:41:53 <kussmaul> a huge project with a good API for extensions (e.g. Drupal, Moodle), may be more accessible than a tiny project of spaghetti code.
13:42:22 <lpostner> bburd: the first page (communities) is a historical page - this is from our early POSSEs - the second page is specific to your POSSE
13:42:34 <lpostner> mhills: thanks for the clarification
13:42:39 <bburd> ok
13:42:49 <lpostner> bburd - did that help?
13:42:55 <bburd> It helped.
13:43:03 <lpostner> any other questions?
13:43:12 * lpostner did I miss one in there?
13:43:48 <mhills> I don’t have any at this time
13:44:37 <lpostner> ok then, I'm going to end the meeting - thanks everyone for attending and I hope you have a great week!
13:44:51 <bburd> Bye for now.
13:44:55 <carterh> Thank you!
13:44:59 <jdehlinger> bye all
13:44:59 <mhills> lpostner thanks, you too!
13:45:04 <suhaibobeidat> Thanks and have a good week all
13:45:19 <lpostner> and don't hesitate to email us if you have questions...
13:45:31 <lpostner> #endmeeting