18:02:01 <stoney> #startmeeting POSSE Meeting 3
18:02:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Sat Jun 15 18:02:01 2019 UTC.
18:02:01 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:02:01 <zodbot> The chair is stoney. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:02:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:02:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'posse_meeting_3'
18:02:12 <stoney> #chair heidie
18:02:12 <zodbot> Current chairs: heidie stoney
18:02:25 <stoney> Hi everyone!
18:02:30 <Terry_> Hi!
18:02:31 <lillethd> Hi
18:02:33 <roosen> hi
18:02:34 <stoney> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/IRC_Meeting_3 contains the agenda for this meeting
18:03:14 <stoney> #topic Roll Call
18:03:25 <stoney> Please reply with a #info your name, your institution.
18:03:38 <heidie> #info Heidi Ellis, Western New England University
18:03:38 <stoney> #info Stoney Jackson, Western New England University
18:03:46 <lillethd> #info Dave Lillethun, Seattle University
18:03:52 <roosen> #info Andy Roosen, U. Delaware
18:03:57 <Terry_> #info Terry Harvey, University of Delaware
18:04:02 <stoney> Hi roosen !
18:04:04 <stoney> Hi Terry_ !
18:04:06 <stevenaeola> #info Steven Bradley, Durham University UK
18:04:16 <stoney> Hi lillethd !
18:04:45 <stoney> Hi stoney !
18:05:15 <stoney> the rest I'm assuming are just lurking
18:05:23 <stoney> #topic Progress on Stage 1 Activities
18:05:39 <stoney> Any problems or questions about Stage 1?
18:06:24 <stevenaeola> Didn't finish every last bit (e.g. complete OpenMRS review) but all good thanks, some nice ideas in the activities
18:06:41 <stoney> awesome...
18:07:03 <Terry_> as always, lots of ideas on how I could use stuff, only need more course hours to do it...
18:07:07 <heidie> Good!
18:07:11 <stoney> yes to do some of these thoroughly would take more time than what the timebox allows
18:07:18 <stoney> stick to the timebox :)
18:07:25 <lillethd> I think I'm getting the gist of it.  My two big things are 1. I need to try doing some of these things myself, get a little more in depth knowing what I'm doing myself, and 2. working out the overall structure of a class that would do HFOSS before I come up with specific activities for that class.
18:07:43 <lillethd> True Terry_  :)
18:08:11 <stoney> lillethd that makes sense
18:08:23 <heidie> lillethd, Yup, starting with one or two activities is a good place to start.
18:08:32 <stoney> lillethd there will be some time in stage 2 to think about classes and activities
18:08:54 <lillethd> Sounds good stoney and heidie
18:08:57 <stoney> Terry_ time is always an issue :)
18:09:45 <lillethd> I also have some questions about evaluation...  What kinds of things would we be able to grade, and how would we grade them?
18:10:06 <stoney> lillethd great question
18:10:43 <stoney> lillethd in software development/engineering/capstone type courses, I like to grade process over products
18:10:46 <heidie> Some of the activities on foss2serve have rubrics.
18:10:55 <heidie> And definitely process over product.
18:11:15 <stevenaeola> I was thinking this would also be a good area for peer assessment
18:11:16 <heidie> Because you can't always guarantee a particular outcome if the HFOSS community isn't responsive.
18:11:18 <stoney> so I'm looking for comments on issues, blogs about their effort, etc.
18:11:21 <heidie> Yup, that too.
18:11:33 <stoney> stevenaeola great idea
18:11:44 <Terry_> lillethd I have done activities in class requiring students to upload answers to questions during class, i.e. read to find the answer, enter the answer. Then we together decide on core ideas/ vocabulary, and those can make it onto the exam.
18:12:09 <lillethd> Yeah, I mean process over product makes a lot of sense.  I think the class would be about processes anyway; that's what I would want them to learn...
18:12:20 <stoney> Terry_ excellent for getting at specific concepts
18:13:32 <stoney> sounds like you are all primed and ready for stage 2 :)
18:13:42 <stoney> shall we move on to the next topic?
18:13:49 <stoney> #topic Stage 1 Activities on Planning for HFOSS in Courses
18:13:52 <lillethd> Do HFOSS classes typically have exams?  Like Terry_ said...  Or if not, what do people do instead of exams?
18:14:04 <lillethd> Oops.  I can follow up when we meet in person.  :)
18:14:09 <heidie> I typically do a project and grade various deliverables for the project.
18:14:09 <stoney> lillethd no problem
18:14:10 <heidie> :-)
18:14:23 <stoney> the discussion is more important, keep going
18:14:37 <lillethd> Ok thanks stoney
18:14:53 <stoney> In a capstone, I don't have an exam
18:14:55 <heidie> #info There are examples of various courses that use HFOSS on foss2serve
18:15:04 <heidie> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/Category:Courses
18:15:07 <Terry_> HFOSS is a small part of my course right now (Intro software Eng for sophomres; fourth CS course)
18:15:09 <lillethd> heidie What kind of project?  If it's about process not product, what is the goal and deliveralbe of the project?
18:15:21 <stoney> In my software dev, I do because there are specific concepts and skills I want them to have
18:15:45 <heidie> lillethd, http://mars.wne.edu/~hellis/CS490/
18:15:57 <stevenaeola> Products could be more generic, e.g. adding detail or test cases for bug reports, but not so usable in an exam
18:16:16 <heidie> This is my syllabus. Click on the "Course Syllabus" link and you'll see all of my deliverables.
18:16:33 <heidie> You should know that this particular class was a bit slower than most. I had to give more support.
18:16:41 <heidie> stevenaeola, yes, exactly
18:16:43 <lillethd> Ok, thanks heidie!
18:18:12 <stoney> OK... so returning to the agenda
18:18:33 <stoney> what about the activities B.4 and C.3?
18:18:46 <stoney> These are the ones where you are starting to think about your classes
18:18:46 <stevenaeola> Remind me..
18:18:54 <stevenaeola> Ah yes, that was quick
18:18:57 <stoney> What courses are you thinking about?
18:19:25 <stevenaeola> Probably a second year software engineering or group project module
18:19:39 <lillethd> I think everything I just talked about relates to this question too, so I'll let others have a turn now.  ;)
18:19:45 <stoney> stevenaeola that sounds like a good fit
18:19:53 <stoney> lillethd :)
18:20:16 <stoney> lillethd so are you trying to do an HFOSS specific course?
18:20:34 <stoney> lillethd or are you trying to mesh HFOSS with a traditional course?
18:21:10 <stoney> Terry_ what course are you targeting?
18:21:32 <lillethd> Yeah stoney I was thinking a course _about_ HFOSS, either as a senior level elective where they've had at least a few advanced courses, or a late-sophomore/early-junior class that they could take with as little as data structures (CS3) as a prerequisite.
18:21:34 <stoney> roosen haven't heard from you... still with us?
18:21:37 <Terry_> sophomore intro to Software Engineering
18:22:04 <stoney> Terry_ ah... now I see you said that before... sorry to make you repeat yourself :)
18:22:20 <roosen> Yes; I’m not sure I’ve a good fit, but I’m a big believer in FOSS :)
18:22:53 <heidie> roosen, I used FOSS approaches to have students create parts of the syllabus for a freshman seminar course.
18:22:53 <stoney> lillethd awesome... is this in fall?
18:23:15 <Terry_> The students develop an educational game for a non-profit client. It's challenging because not all my students are prepared to code at that level. Some students are really ready for softwware enginering, and others have trouble with interfaces and inheritance.
18:23:20 <lillethd> If figure either way they can learn about the process and tooling, as well as legal and ethical issues.  If it's a later curriculum courses, I would just have more expectation of maturity in that learning, plus being able to read and understand the code, and create at least a small code contribution by the end (no requirement that is be accepted, though).
18:23:46 <Terry_> In a perfect world I could put the strong half into HFOSS curriculum
18:23:59 <lillethd> No probably not that soon stoney  Next years schedule is pretty worked out in my department already.  Later on, though.
18:25:19 <stoney> Terry_ even some seniors aren't ready... but there are many ways to have folks engage in HFOSS that doesn't have to be as intense as coding.
18:25:20 <Terry_> I have been using your lessons stoney for git intro etc.
18:26:11 <stoney> Terry_ awesome! if you spot any problems please leave issues in the tracker for those activities :)
18:26:25 <stoney> lillethd good so you have some time
18:26:53 <stoney> lillethd sounds like a great course!
18:27:05 <lillethd> I agree stoney because I also have some thinking to do...  :)
18:27:17 <heidie> In our observations, it takes a while to work up to a full course using HFOSS. Most people start with a few exercises.
18:27:46 <Terry_> stoney agreed. I spend lots of time working on the coding skills though, and typically only have 1-2 classroom hours to spend directly on HFOSS. I am hoping that when we have some curated HFOSS examples I will be better able to integrate code stuff.
18:28:00 <lillethd> I think the earlier curriculum one might be a better course, there there are reason that would be hard to fit into our curriculum in a productive way, whereas a senior-level elective would be easy to slot it... stoney
18:28:50 <stoney> Terry_ sounds great
18:29:21 <stoney> lillethd ah... so you're still working out what level too
18:29:53 <Terry_> We have a flexible capstone setup that could incorporate an HFOSS version, but I'm not one of the ones teahcing it.
18:30:32 <stoney> quick aside... It looks like most are... but I just want to remind everyone to log your progress and thoughts in the Google Sheet ....
18:30:35 <stoney> #link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HvgclSLZE4f1fDrw9S7ywP6MrMsAaWjWXATQ3W7H3Wg/edit#gid=0 to log comments on Stage 1
18:30:46 <lillethd> Well, not really.  I think the practical consideration is it need to be a senior-level elective if I want a full course just about HFOSS, just because of practical considerations.  Either that or work towards a major change in the curriculum structure, which would probably take years to really make happen.  ;)
18:31:56 <stoney> lillethd yup... three years ago we prototyped a capstone using HFOSS... last spring was the first official offering because it was at the senior level
18:32:21 <lillethd> It's possible to make a "senior-level elective" where the only prerequisite is data structures (CS3), though.  That would allow students to take it earlier...  but the scheduling reality is that most won't until at least winter quarter of their junior year...
18:32:38 <stoney> right :)
18:32:54 <stoney> next topic?
18:32:57 <heidie> Yup, scheduling can be difficult.
18:33:23 <stoney> #topic Stage 2 Group Sign-up
18:33:40 <stoney> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/Stage2_Groups to sign up
18:34:06 <stoney> has everyone signed up for a group?
18:34:43 <Terry_> not yet. I had been thinking Ushahidi, but is Food group smaller and more responsive?
18:34:53 <stevenaeola> Yes. But I was confused bu Ushahidi. It seems to be a paid platform, with only some versions made OSS.
18:35:55 <heidie> I would focus on courses.
18:36:21 <Terry_> oh ok, I am in a course group.
18:36:25 <roosen> Me, too
18:36:27 <heidie> We will likely focus on courses and activities that can be used within courses for this POSSE, more than particular projects.
18:36:28 <heidie> Super!
18:36:46 <stoney> awesome
18:36:54 <lillethd> Sounds good.  I'm in two.  :)  I can pick just one if I need to, though.
18:37:12 <stoney> lillethd yup, that should work
18:37:15 <stevenaeola> For courses I signed up for two, partly because the Software Engineering/Capstone looked quite full and partly because I don't teach on that at the moment but I do teach programming/introductory SE
18:37:51 <stevenaeola> So please just put me wherever if it needs to be just one
18:38:02 <stoney> makes sense... we just need an rough idea when we form groups
18:38:07 <stoney> so that works
18:38:22 <stoney> ok last... but important topic
18:38:23 <stoney> #topic Good of the Order - Travel Questions
18:38:47 <stevenaeola> I presume that we won't be picked up from the airport - happy to make my own way but don't want to leave anybody standing if they have come to fetch me.
18:39:08 <heidie> The idea is to look at the spreadsheet and see if you can coordinate travel with anyone.
18:39:19 <stoney> heidie do you have the link to the travel sheet?
18:39:27 <stevenaeola> Gotcha
18:39:33 <stoney> I think I have the wrong one
18:39:38 * heidie searches frantically...
18:39:46 <stoney> oh... it's in the agenda
18:40:09 <stevenaeola> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FZS5iNELU5CclWgiaGXswUY7sWm3u5RtXmC5t8khBH4/edit#gid=0
18:40:24 <stoney> #link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QTaZ0C-rNoDhTiR3wVr5iM7t5SL7lijwhIpGLYsEqaE/edit#gid=0 travel sheet
18:40:28 <stoney> thanks stevenaeola !
18:40:34 <heidie> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FZS5iNELU5CclWgiaGXswUY7sWm3u5RtXmC5t8khBH4/edit#gid=0
18:40:52 <stoney> thanks heidie !
18:41:02 <heidie> Use my link folks.
18:41:19 <heidie> WE had two spreadsheets floating around and we've put everything into this one:
18:41:22 <heidie> #link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FZS5iNELU5CclWgiaGXswUY7sWm3u5RtXmC5t8khBH4/edit#gid=0
18:41:24 <stoney> oops
18:41:26 <lillethd> Looks like I'm making my own way.  I've used SEPTA before, so I should be able to figure it out...
18:41:34 <heidie> OK
18:41:39 <stevenaeola> But I'm not sure how to contact people who might be arriving at the same time, will there be any group communication e.g. WhatsApp group?
18:41:47 <heidie> Ping Greg if you need more info.
18:41:56 <heidie> Oh, right!
18:42:04 <heidie> We forgot to include a column for contact info. Sigh...
18:42:58 <Terry_> what time do we start Monday? not seeing the schedule immediately
18:43:01 <stevenaeola> Roughly how much would a taxi be, and do they take credit cards in general?
18:43:20 <heidie> stevenaeola, They would indeed take credit cards.
18:43:31 <stevenaeola> Thanks heidie
18:43:32 <heidie> stevenaeola, hislopg is the person who would know the answer to this.
18:43:40 <lillethd> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/Stage_2_Activities schedule
18:43:44 <heidie> I think its around $20, but I'm not sure.
18:44:12 <heidie> stevenaeola, It looks like the person arriving closest to you is Olga at 6:30.
18:44:35 <Terry_> lillethd thanks!
18:44:55 <stevenaeola> Yes I saw that, was wondering about contacting her. I guess I could look up her email on the wiki.
18:45:41 <stoney> any more logistic questions?
18:45:53 <stoney> heidie is a pro at answering them :)
18:45:58 <lillethd> For the hotel, I never got a confirmation.  Should I assume they have the reservation and I just give my name when I arrive?
18:45:58 <stevenaeola> But I just looked it up and her email address isn't there
18:46:21 <heidie> :-)
18:46:29 <heidie> lillethd, We made hotel reservations for you.
18:46:32 <stevenaeola> Also anything happening on Sunday night social-wise?
18:46:35 <heidie> So you are assured a room.
18:47:46 * heidie tries to remember if we set up a google group for this POSSE?
18:48:13 <stoney> stevenaeola worst case, you could email the entire group using POSSE-2019-06@googlegroups.com
18:48:26 <heidie> Right!
18:48:28 <stevenaeola> OK thanks stoney
18:48:49 <heidie> Feel free to reach out as there will be others arriving on Sunday.
18:49:03 <lillethd> Do I need to bring reimbursement documents (hard copies) *to* the workshop, or will most of that be handled after I get home?
18:49:13 <heidie> That will be handled when you get home lillethd
18:49:28 <Terry_> I could pick up the two arriving PHL noonish on Monday
18:50:15 <lillethd> afk brb
18:50:17 <stoney> Terry_ probably coordinate that through the email list and the travel sheet
18:50:35 <stoney> that way you can reach everyone
18:51:03 <heidie> Terry_, that would be awesome.
18:51:32 <stoney> we're almost out of time... anything else?
18:51:56 <lillethd> back
18:51:58 <stevenaeola> I'm all good thanks, looking forward to it
18:52:10 <Terry_> hurrah team!
18:52:12 <stoney> I wish I was going to this one...
18:52:21 <stevenaeola> But what time do we start on Monday?
18:52:22 <stoney> I'm sorry I won't get to meet all of you in person
18:52:27 <stoney> you seem like a great group
18:52:41 <stoney> and I look forward to working with all of you online! :)
18:52:42 <lillethd> Maybe see you at SIGCSE stoney ?
18:52:50 <stoney> lillethd absolutely!
18:52:53 <stevenaeola> Thanks for all your help stoney
18:53:02 <stoney> sure
18:53:07 <stoney> enjoy the workshop!
18:53:09 <Terry_> schedule is on Stage 2 Activities
18:53:10 <heidie> Looking forward to meeting everyone in person!
18:53:15 <lillethd> Yeah, thank you stoney and heidie ! :D
18:53:22 <stevenaeola> Thx
18:53:35 <heidie> stevenaeola, Leave the hotel around 1:30 to start at 2:00
18:53:45 <stevenaeola> Great!
18:53:55 <stoney> perfect :)
18:54:06 <stoney> motion to adjourn?
18:54:11 <Terry_> so moved
18:54:16 <stoney> #endmeeting