#meeting-1:fedoraproject.org log

<@james:fedora.im>

17:00:58

!startmeeting fpc

<@meetbot:fedora.im>

17:00:59

Meeting started at 2024-02-22 17:00:58 UTC

<@meetbot:fedora.im>

17:00:59

The Meeting name is 'fpc'

<@james:fedora.im>

17:01:04

!topic Roll Call

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:01:26

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

17:01:28

Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:01:38

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

17:01:39

Gwyn Ciesla (limb) - she / her / hers

<@tibbs:fedora.im>

17:01:49

I think I'm here.

<@james:fedora.im>

17:02:09

Hey tibbs!

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:02:11

You seem like it but I don't have the spoons to conduct a Turing test this morning.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:02:23

I _believe_ I'm here

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:03:03

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

17:03:04

Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:03:11

wow, lots of people here today

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:03:39

My kids argue that I'm a semi-sophisticated bot.

<@james:fedora.im>

17:07:50

So ... four of us?

<@james:fedora.im>

17:07:56

!topic Open Floor

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:09:36

🤷‍♀️

<@james:fedora.im>

17:09:37

Anyone know anything about fortran?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:09:48

oof

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:09:53

I've used f90 in the past... why? :)

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:09:53

not really, no

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:10:01

I maintain NumPy.

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:10:03

So...no.

<@james:fedora.im>

17:10:10

https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1334

<@james:fedora.im>

17:10:59

I think that should be simple ... maybe just reply with "Please open a PR and we'll probably just merge it"?

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:11:14

if FPC has no expertise sounds like... a PR to update the guideline would be welcome but those people working on it should address the concerns themselves?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:11:24

yeah, practically speaking that's pretty much all we can ask for

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:11:27

they seem to have open questions there

<@tibbs:fedora.im>

17:11:50

I have to admit I don't understand what is meant by "an equivalent macro for the libraries".

<@tibbs:fedora.im>

17:12:19

We know what "libraries" means in other contexts; that's just %_libdir but I assume they mean something quite different in this context.

<@james:fedora.im>

17:12:41

I assume it's more like golang "libraries" and less like C libraries.

<@james:fedora.im>

17:12:54

But I know nothing about fortran.

<@tibbs:fedora.im>

17:13:14

But if so, then why would you put those someplace different than any other library?

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:15:01

Due to assumptions made by other tooling?

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:15:24

maybe we should ask the PR submitter to clarify what they mean, we don't know enough to even begin to speculate

<@tibbs:fedora.im>

17:15:28

Basically the entire ticket leaves me more confused about fortran than I was before I read it.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:15:35

and ask for a concrete example

<@james:fedora.im>

17:18:23

Okay, I posted a comment.

<@james:fedora.im>

17:20:11

And from that no ideas, to one where almost everyone already shouted at the OP with their opinion ;)

<@james:fedora.im>

17:20:13

https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1333

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:21:27

I'm really not happy about how stuff like this keeps coming

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:21:28

ahh this

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:21:41

they already keep pushing for us to ban Lua scriptlets because rpm-ostree doesn't support Lua

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:22:07

I thought there is general consensus that the only two writable place in immutable world would be /etc/ and /var/

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:22:15

Yes.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:22:22

That's kind of the point.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:22:29

what's the story behind this Lua thing? don't they just use RPM underneath?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:22:35

No.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:22:40

They reimplement RPM.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:22:53

I mean, we moved things that make sense to /usr - like the rpmdb - but asking everyone else to not use /var seems... overly restrictive

<@daandemeyer/:matrix.org>

17:23:02

Even /etc is under discussion

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:23:07

I commented there saying their recommendation to just use systemd is unworkable

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:23:39

that sounds like a nightmare. when key components like systemd explicitly recommend using /etc for user customization

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:24:02

if they want those kinds of things to be happening, their "not-rpm" part of rpm-ostree should be doing that stuff automatically for the user

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:24:06

the laugh is directed not at you

<@james:fedora.im>

17:24:15

I think of it a bit like cross compiling gcc ... they still use rpm, but you can't actually run anything at install time anymore.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:24:54

rpm-the-format not rpm-the-tool, right?

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:25:01

what is their not-rpm called?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:25:03

Yeah, they use _enough_ of librpm and libdnf to make stuff kind of work, but they also change enough of the guts that it doesn't actually work the way people expect it to.

<@james:fedora.im>

17:25:56

rpm-ostree

<@james:fedora.im>

17:26:05

At least atm.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:26:30

yeah

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:26:38

they've wanted to change the name a few times now

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:26:42

who knows if it'll happen

<@james:fedora.im>

17:27:31

bifrost is the new PR name, but it's currently still mostly rpm-ostree with more UI (AIUI).

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:27:44

better than dnf-image

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:27:49

(yes, really)

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:28:23

that name is not confusing at all

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:28:33

is it supposed to be ... a bridge between... what? :)

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:28:36

I had thusfar not managed to read this ticket and now I have and....

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:29:10

in _theory_ the rainbow bridge between traditional rpm and fully immutable image based thingies

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:29:24

I guess the package just sort of zhoops in out of the sky and hits stuff with a hammer?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:29:38

in practice... the rainbow is a bit faded and cracked...

<@james:fedora.im>

17:30:05

It makes some sense (as much as anything in tech does) ... the general idea is that when you want to change your OS, you build a new container and then move to it.

<@james:fedora.im>

17:30:43

Magic rainbow bridge from the OS to any container

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:30:52

oh god

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:31:07

Sort of a miracle. Maybe not beefy.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:31:09

Bifrost

<@decathorpe:fedora.im>

17:32:07

hi! sorry, I lost track of time. this would have been my third meeting today :(

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:32:14

oof

<@james:fedora.im>

17:32:32

ThreePeet!

<@decathorpe:fedora.im>

17:34:05

yeah I like the idea behind rpm/ostree, but I don't like the implementation :(

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:40:01

opensuse's approach seems much more compatible with traditional packaging

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:40:16

of course that means it relies on btrfs or another filesystem with snapshots

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:40:26

Yes, it maximally reuses the existing capabilities and is pretty straightforward to reason.

<@james:fedora.im>

17:42:02

Michel Lind🎩: you think you can bridge between what they want what OpenSuSE do, that will make everyone happy?

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:42:53

oh, they're so invested in ostree already that ship has long sailed

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:43:03

just grumbling that all this is so unnecessary

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:44:38

What a waste..you could have been writing odd niche new build systems!

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:44:51

oh god no

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:44:55

you mean like buck2 ?

<@nhanlon:beeper.com>

17:45:58

you're no fun :P

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:46:02

ooof

<@nhanlon:beeper.com>

17:46:06

`unsafe`

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:46:21

Why read documentation when you can bundle a fork of meson?

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:46:40

I mean, once they do I'll definitely ship it in Fedora and then we can start cleaning up Meta's dual build system craziness (buck2 + cmake)

<@james:fedora.im>

17:46:47

The Venn diagram of rust devs and rust devs who want to use nightly features is a circle.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:46:56

forking the build tool, now that is scary

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:47:13

"we compile from source anyway so who cares"

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:47:33

Rust in the kernel will be... my sympathies for people who have to maintain LTS kernels

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

17:48:01

neil gave a cookie to james. They now have 38 cookies, 1 of which were obtained in the Fedora 39 release cycle

<@james:fedora.im>

17:48:04

The one upside they have is all kernel maintainers are very good at saying "no"

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

17:48:19

ngompa gave a cookie to james. They now have 39 cookies, 2 of which were obtained in the Fedora 39 release cycle

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:48:33

I learned today that Ardour is forking GTK2

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:48:39

so... yeah...

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:48:49

Oh hell

<@decathorpe:fedora.im>

17:49:09

I am a Rust dev and I don't :( while I use Rust nightly to develop my stuff, I don't enable any nightly-only features

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:49:18

it sucks even with non-LTS kernels right now :(

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:49:42

Just write a new DE in svgalib and get it over with.

<@decathorpe:fedora.im>

17:50:02

at least they seem very committed to keeping up with latest Rust versions and reducing the number of nightly-only features they need

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:50:04

oh geez, I remember svgalib

<@nhanlon:beeper.com>

17:50:07

Linux isn't real and it can't hurt you (allegedly)

<@james:fedora.im>

17:50:19

🤯

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:50:51

at least they are not forking X11

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:51:15

https://ardour.org/whatsnew.html

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:51:27

> From a project-level perspective, perhaps the most important change is that we have moved the source code of our GUI toolkit (GTK v2) into the Ardour source tree.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:51:34

I so wish this is real https://tech.slashdot.org/story/02/03/31/2350239/qt-for-the-console

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:52:03

I need a drink.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:52:56

how hard is the gtk2 -> 3 transition really?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:53:03

very

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:53:04

or to 4 right away, or heck to Qt

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:53:07

it was a huge API break

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:53:10

why... try to maintain gtk2

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:53:29

most likely they wrote custom widgets in gtk2

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:53:35

oh fun

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:53:44

it's the same reason anaconda isn't porting to gtk4

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:54:00

easier to just use a browser huh

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:54:00

custom widgets are difficult to port to newer versions of gtk

<@james:fedora.im>

17:54:03

It wasn't as bad as py2 to py3

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:54:06

🫠

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:54:11

you'd think that's what wxgtk and friends are for

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:54:24

this was because of lack of devs

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:54:26

This is only hard if you use strings.

<@james:fedora.im>

17:54:49

I did not know that ... what is the plan?

<@james:fedora.im>

17:55:12

Also feel like I should endmeeting and not have this all recorded ;)

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:55:28

don't think there is one

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:55:46

On the bright side it might make for a 🔥🔥🔥 LWN article.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:58:29

back on a more relevant topic - there was talk recently about purging inactive members and electing new ones

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:58:32

is that.. happening?

<@decathorpe:fedora.im>

17:59:06

I think we should. there are people in the group that haven't showed up for literally years

<@james:fedora.im>

17:59:22

You'll be shocked to know that the people who don't turn up to meetings did not reply to my email.

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:59:29

You.

<@decathorpe:fedora.im>

17:59:31

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:59:31

Don't

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:59:32

Say.

<@limb:fedora.im>

17:59:39

Don't.

<@james:fedora.im>

18:00:46

I don't think we've ever "fired" anybody ... they've always volunteered to leave, old and broken.

<@limb:fedora.im>

18:01:35

Some of us have stayed on, old and broken.

<@james:fedora.im>

18:02:42

I am in this comment and I don't like it.

<@limb:fedora.im>

18:03:53

"This is just a reminder for anyone who's used Fedora Core 3 to take some ibuprofen for their back"

<@limb:fedora.im>

18:04:11

"This is just a reminder for anyone who's used Fedora Core 3 to take some ibuprofen for their back"

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:06:22

thanks for the reminder - I need to stand up and stretch :P

<@james:fedora.im>

18:07:09

Yeh, we are six minutes over ... we should all walk around a bit and try to remember what we were going to do.

<@james:fedora.im>

18:07:16

!endmeeting