#meeting-1:fedoraproject.org log

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:00:15

!startmeeting EPEL (2024-05-01)

<@meetbot:fedora.im>

18:00:17

Meeting started at 2024-05-01 18:00:15 UTC

<@meetbot:fedora.im>

18:00:17

The Meeting name is 'EPEL (2024-05-01)'

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:00:22

!meetingname epel

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:00:29

!topic aloha

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:00:38

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:00:43

Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his

<@mhayden:fedora.im>

18:00:45

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:00:50

Major Hayden (mhayden) - he / him / his

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:00:55

long time no see ;)

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

18:01:16

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:01:32

Robby Callicotte (rcallicotte) - he / him / his

<@davide:cavalca.name>

18:01:34

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:01:39

Davide Cavalca (dcavalca) - he / him / his

<@nhanlon:beeper.com>

18:01:40

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:01:44

Neil Hanlon (neil) - he / him / his

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:01:44

mhayden gave a cookie to tdawson. They now have 65 cookies, 1 of which were obtained in the Fedora 40 release cycle

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:02:11

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:02:12

salimma gave a cookie to tdawson. They now have 66 cookies, 2 of which were obtained in the Fedora 40 release cycle

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:02:16

Carl George (carlwgeorge) - he / him / his

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:02:16

Hi mhayden Robby Callicotte Davide Cavalca Neil Hanlon

<@pgreco:fedora.im>

18:02:22

!hi

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:02:26

morning

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:02:27

Pablo Sebastian Greco (pgreco)

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

18:02:39

!hi

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:02:41

Hi Pablo Greco and Carl George

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:02:48

Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:02:51

Morning nirik

<@nhanlon:beeper.com>

18:03:16

hope everyone's having an at least okay week

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:03:49

mhayden: I don't see you on the meeting too much. Are you hear for a specific reason/topic? Or just here in general?

<@mhayden:fedora.im>

18:04:17

Troy Dawson: i made a mess and Carl George spotted it :)

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:05:41

mhayden gave a cookie to smooge. They now have 260 cookies, 1 of which were obtained in the Fedora 40 release cycle

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:06:11

!topic End Of Life (EOL)

<@smooge:fedora.im>

18:06:13

oooh awscli2.. that is probably going to need that special absorbing stuff that they use in schools when someone vomits

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:06:18

RHEL 7 / epel-7 will go EOL on 2024-06-30 https://endoflife.date/rhel CentOS Stream 8 / epel-8-next goes EOL in 2024-05-31 CentOS Stream 9 / epel-9-next goes EOL in 2027-05-31 https://endoflife.date/centos-stream

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:06:41

salimma gave a cookie to smooge. They now have 261 cookies, 2 of which were obtained in the Fedora 40 release cycle

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:06:45

30 days to epel8-next end of life

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:07:16

Is it time to create a releng ticket for archiving it? Or should we wait until it's actually time?

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:07:30

would anyone mind if I just tuened off epel7 today? ;) would save me some headaches... </kidding>

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:07:45

would anyone mind if I just turned off epel7 today? ;) would save me some headaches... </kidding>

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:07:59

killitwithfire.gif

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:08:12

that will be the other meaning of "May Day"

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:08:19

mayday! mayday! my repo is gone

<@smooge:fedora.im>

18:08:29

please don't until I get a blog out on how to deal with EOL EL7

<@smooge:fedora.im>

18:09:19

because on July 1st the world is going to scream when `yum update` fails for 10 million servers

<@nhanlon:beeper.com>

18:09:52

easy -- just tell them to use dnf instead!

<@smooge:fedora.im>

18:10:11

oooh anyone want a scarey picture https://data-analysis.fedoraproject.org/csv-reports/images/epel-stacked.png for the last couple of weeks

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:10:32

I don't understand the epel7 spike of late... I guess we will see what happens july 1st...

<@nhanlon:beeper.com>

18:10:34

no plz

<@davide:cavalca.name>

18:10:56

how is epel6 still there lol

<@smooge:fedora.im>

18:11:17

nirik: going from some of the IRC stories.. its people moving EL6 systems to EL7

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:11:32

Wow ... that is scary.

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:11:34

mirrormanager still answers and redirects people to archives. same for old fedora releases.

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:11:49

yeah, but they didn't have epel6 on those?

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:12:37

I'm going to move on, but it's going to be interesting.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:12:47

!topic EPEL Issues https://pagure.io/epel/issues

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:12:56

https://pagure.io/epel/issues?tags=meeting&status=Open

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:13:32

Let's start with the hopefully, short one - https://pagure.io/epel/issue/269

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:13:58

Is everyone ok with the final three questions?

<@nhanlon:beeper.com>

18:14:36

looks good to me!

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:14:41

LGTM

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:15:03

Robby was at the Open Office meeting, and he said he was ok with them. And since he's been nominated, that's good to hear, cuz he'll be filling them out.

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:15:09

seems fine

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:15:49

only one qualm about first question

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:16:10

goes back to the fallacy about naming - not everyone has two names so maybe say "unless you have only one name"?

<@davide:cavalca.name>

18:16:45

Can we just ask "what is the name you go by?" or something generic like that?

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:17:08

(sorry for not raising it earlier)

<@davide:cavalca.name>

18:17:27

trying to be normative about names gets tricky very quickly

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:18:10

I like that. What we have currently is already fairly confusing.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

18:18:17

I think it's also worth asking a question about conflict resolution

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

18:18:22

we do this for FESCo

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

18:18:35

let me find the fesco question list

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

18:19:04

https://pagure.io/fedora-pgm/elections-interviews/issue/58

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

18:19:11

!link https://pagure.io/fedora-pgm/elections-interviews/issue/58

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:19:59

How come they have so many questions, but I was asked to narrow it down to three?

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:20:12

I was wondering

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:20:15

IMHO, candidates should do a short essay on why they are running and philosophy, and if people have more specific questions, they should ask them...

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:20:21

who asked for the narrowing down?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

18:20:41

I'm not sure

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

18:20:50

I didn't know we were asked to narrow it down

<@davide:cavalca.name>

18:21:14

I'm not necessarily opposed to this, but the bar for writing an essay is probably higher than the one for answering a few questions

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:21:52

well, I don't mean some kind of long formal document. Anyone should be able to write a small paragraph...

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:22:08

https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/program_management/elections/#_elections_process

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:22:12

fwiw I interpret "why you are running" as "write a few paragraphs" anyway

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:22:22

yep.

<@davide:cavalca.name>

18:22:25

if we go that way, we should probably frame it explicitly as a platform of sorts, i.e. an avenue for the candidate to make their case and promote themselves

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:22:26

It says "From the set of collected questions for nominees to FESCo (Engineering), Fedora Council, and Mindshare|Mindshare teams, top 3 questions are selected, based on Council decision"

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:22:27

essay is a scary word

<@davide:cavalca.name>

18:23:03

fwiw this is what I meant; I think some folks would react negatively to the framing, despite being similar levels of efforts in the end

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:23:03

so... the fesco questions will also be pared down to 3? interesting

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:23:11

It doesn't say EPEL in there, because we weren't on there before ... but I understood that to mean that we only get three questions.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

18:23:12

I get nightmares of the ACT and SAT

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:23:54

when I took the GRE they just replaced the analytical part with analytical writing. apparently because it was harder to cheat on those. so one extra essay :/

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

18:23:55

though as an aside, apparently the essay component is being removed from those exams

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:24:08

i also don't think that multi-sentence answers to a few questions is the same level of effort as an essay. at a minimum you already have the structure for what you need to write in the q&a style.

<@jrichardson:matrix.org>

18:25:17

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:25:21

James Richardson (jrichardson)

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:25:33

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:25:41

Hi James Richardson

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:27:26

Getting back on track, I'll change the first question a bit, to what was said.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:27:49

If anyone wants to write up the "conflict" question, they should update the issue.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:29:00

there are not that many candidates, so any question that don't make the cut can also be asked directly once the interviews are posted right

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:29:10

I guess we field them on both the mailing list and on discourse?

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:29:23

I believe so.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:30:01

This is my first time running in a Fedora based election, so I'm still a bit fuzzy on the details.

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:30:10

are we really going to get valuable answers from a conflict question? is anyone going to answer anything beyond "listen to all sides and then vote"?

<@davide:cavalca.name>

18:31:00

the way to ask that in an interview setting and get useful signal is usual "tell me about a time you had to deal with conflict and how to handled it"

<@davide:cavalca.name>

18:31:08

I don't think that would be appropriate to do in this setting

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:32:50

just FYI, fesco used to do 'town halls' on irc for people to ask questions and have the candidates answer... but fewer and fewer people showed up to those and they didn't seem to help anyone decide who they wanted to vote for...

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:33:43

I think I'm going to timebox this. As usual, what I think is a quick subject, took longer than expected.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:34:10

But this needs to be done by next week, May 8. So please make comments on the issue.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:35:41

I just looked at the second issue, and the pull request. I just realized I hadn't updated the pull request with the changes we talked about in the meeting a couple of weeks ago.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:36:06

I'm sorry, I will work on that right after this meeting. I really thought I'd already updated it.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:36:25

So I'm going to move to "old Business"

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:36:35

!topic Old Business

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:37:01

Does anyone have any Old Business they would like to bring up?

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:37:27

I got distracted by conferences but I should have the draft Django LTS policy put up as a PR tomorrow as an aside we can now run antora from local npm install, for those not on x86_64 or those running inside containers that can't use the Antora container

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:38:02

Sounds good.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:38:08

Any other Old Business?

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:38:31

I have a hopefully quick one, if nobody else does.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:39:09

A few weeks back we talked about setting up epel10 in stage. Did that happen?

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:39:29

nope. I haven't gotten to merging the pr...

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:39:37

not yet

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:39:38

but I am actually doing things from my todo list now, so soon...

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:39:55

Cool

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:40:28

is RHEL 9.4 prep old business? IIRC we discussed it in a previous meeting

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:40:45

for clarity that pr is to sync c10 to batcave, which is what is blocking setting up things in stg koji

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:40:47

and mhayden is here for it :)

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:41:05

merging the pr doesn't make it "done", it's "get started"

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:41:20

How about we move to Open Floor to discuss the 9.4 stuff.

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:41:28

right, I meant merge the pr and get the sync going so you could poke stg. ;)

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:41:42

yeah i was thinking open floor for 9.4 stuff, basically new business

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:42:01

!topic General Issues / Open Floor

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:42:20

we should let Carl/Major go first

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:42:22

Is everyone's Open Floor stuff all about the same stuff?

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:42:32

mine is not :)

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:42:51

OK, Carl George and mhayden ... go for it.

<@mhayden:fedora.im>

18:43:29

so i was looking to bring efs-utils/botocore into RHEL, but then that didn't work out. i'm hoping to find a way to keep botocore in EPEL and back it out of RHEL

<@mhayden:fedora.im>

18:43:36

python-botocore, that is

<@mhayden:fedora.im>

18:44:05

i've never gone in this direction before with a package and i'm hoping for advice on how to make it work

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:44:11

!link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2236795

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:44:27

mhayden gave a cookie to carlwgeorge. They now have 48 cookies, 1 of which were obtained in the Fedora 40 release cycle

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:44:31

first step is to cancel this removal process

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:44:49

is the one in c9s based on the fedora spec, or has it diverged? if it has not, you can just rebase changes back to c9s for the next attempt right

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:44:55

(or merge changes in if it has diverged)

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:45:01

next step i would say is to remove python-botocore from cs9, where it is still present

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:45:29

last step would be to decide if the current epel9 package should be rebased to match the version that was planned for rhel9.4

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:46:11

several months ago i created epel9-next builds of boto3 and s3transfer, which needed to be rebased to work with the rebased botocore

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:46:21

!link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2243017

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:46:45

I don't see mhayden as one of the maintainers of python-botocore ... should he be added?

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:46:53

Looks like epel9 has `1.25.10-1.el9` while cs9 has `1.31.62-1.el9`

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:47:01

it probably helps if he's on the package for coordination

<@mhayden:fedora.im>

18:47:16

i am glad to help if needed

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:47:42

going forward with the botocore rebase (just in epel instead of rhel) seems like the easiest path to me, so that way those epel9-next builds can transition to epel9. otherwise we would need to sort out the upgrade path to undo things.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:47:50

+1 for rebasing, or people using stream will have to downgrade themselves (we're not playing epoch games for this I guess)

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:48:16

yeah my goal is to avoid epoch games, those aren't desirable

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:48:53

mhayden: do you think it's possible (or even likely) that botocore will be added to a future rhel release for something else?

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:49:10

we have... 1.31.62-1, yeah

<@mhayden:fedora.im>

18:49:21

i don't see a reason to bring it into RHEL in the short/medium term

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:49:32

When we say "rebasing" does that mean updating python-botocore in epel9 to 1.31.* and then updating the affected packages? If that is so, then I'm for it, it seems like the least painful way forward.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:49:36

so huge thanks if we go that route or our cloud team will have a hard time

<@mhayden:fedora.im>

18:49:39

the goal was to bring it in as a dependency for efs-utils, but we're unwinding that work

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:50:05

yup, that's exactly what i mean

<@jonathanspw:fedora.im>

18:50:21

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:50:23

Jonathan Wright (jonathanspw)

<@jonathanspw:fedora.im>

18:50:26

timezones are hard.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:50:32

Hi jonathanspw

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:51:00

as you said, epel is currently 1.25.10, and rhel9.4 was going to be 1.31.62. i think the smoothest path forward is to do that same rebase in epel itself.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:51:35

And if you've already done the work in epel9-next ... then the work is already known and done.

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:52:00

also if rhel9 ever does add it, i can't imagine them doing a version lower than 1.31.62, which is what is in gitlab already https://gitlab.com/redhat/centos-stream/rpms/python-botocore

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:53:30

mhayden: can you submit a pr to the python-botocore epel9 branch to do the same rebase that you did for c9? just with the release one higher for upgrade path?

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:54:20

So, it sounds like this needs to go through the "incompatible update" process, correct?

<@mhayden:fedora.im>

18:54:52

i can make the PR, Carl George

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:54:54

maybe? i'll defer to major on that one since he was looking closer at the software itself in the process of adding it to rhel

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:55:04

!link https://github.com/boto/botocore/blob/1.31.62/CHANGELOG.rst

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:55:42

I assumed it did, since you needed to redo some packages in epel9-next .

<@mhayden:fedora.im>

18:55:43

most botocore updates are small changes to API requests or adding new APIs (in my experience)

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:56:13

the epel9-next builds were due to strict dep ranges, not necessarily breaking changes in botocore

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:56:50

if dependent packages request strict dep ranges... this is effectively incompatible upgrade anyway right

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:56:57

Ahh ... ok.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:57:03

regardless of whether the dep range is overly strict or not

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:57:08

i can work with major separately on the incompat process if this does involve breaking changes

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:57:20

it would still be good to get the initial pr up, even labeled as DRAFT

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:57:56

if we suspect it's incompatible, maybe announce it now to save time?

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:58:31

i suspect the c9 package is going to stick around in the repos until someone manually cleans it up, right Troy Dawson ?

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

18:59:15

Yes, but we have ways of cleaning it up. But as far as I know, we don't have a ticket to remove it at all.

<@nhanlon:beeper.com>

18:59:52

it's about time, fyi

<@salimma:fedora.im>

18:59:59

yeah

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:00:38

quick announcement for my item, which is related - during the office hour earlier Conan Kudo suggested having a "lightweight incompatible upgrade" process for upgrades that introduce compat packages

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:00:56

I signed up to put up a PR, we can discuss that at the next meeting (I'll post to the list / ping the Matrix room too)

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:01:26

TLDR auto approval from SC, but likely need an announcement period. going to use the procedure I outlined for updating catch 3 / catch2 as the baseline

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:01:45

Our time is spent. Thank you all for the good discussions. And especially thank you all for all the you do for EPEL, it's users, and community.

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

19:01:46

probably best to integrate that into the existing incompat process, with option a and option b depending on if there is going to be a legacy compat package

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:02:10

yup

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:02:14

that's the plan :)

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

19:02:14

that might even encourage more compat packages

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:02:35

we're converging with how Rust does things :P

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:02:45

I'll talk to ya'll next week, if not sooner.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:02:55

!endmeeting