2024-07-18 16:00:38 <@james:fedora.im> !startmeeting fpc

2024-07-18 16:00:39 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2024-07-18 16:00:38 UTC
2024-07-18 16:00:39 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'fpc'
2024-07-18 16:00:42 <@james:fedora.im> !topic Roll Call
2024-07-18 16:01:03 <@salimma:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-18 16:01:05 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
2024-07-18 16:01:13 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2024-07-18 16:01:15 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2024-07-18 16:01:17 <@james:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-18 16:01:18 <@zodbot:fedora.im> James Antill (james)
2024-07-18 16:02:57 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-18 16:02:59 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Jonathan Steffan (jsteffan)
2024-07-18 16:03:16 <@limb:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-18 16:03:18 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Gwyn Ciesla (limb) - she / her / hers
2024-07-18 16:09:59 <@salimma:fedora.im> wondering if Matrix is glitching again or we've been silent for 6 mins
2024-07-18 16:10:44 <@james:fedora.im> We are usually quiet at the start, hoping for 5+ people to turn up from the committee
2024-07-18 16:10:51 <@james:fedora.im> !topic Open Floor
2024-07-18 16:11:57 <@james:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1368
2024-07-18 16:12:18 <@james:fedora.im> This got rebased, but I'm not sure we should approve it without 5
2024-07-18 16:12:57 <@james:fedora.im> Would be happy to if the packagers affected would come into the ticket and say it seems fine to them.
2024-07-18 16:13:08 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> yeah, i emailed all of the contributors for openxr, vulkan, and mesa directly but still didn't see any feedback
2024-07-18 16:13:24 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> yeah, i emailed all of the maintainers for openxr, vulkan, and mesa directly but still didn't see any feedback
2024-07-18 16:14:03 <@james:fedora.im> Michel Lind 🎩: Can you give it a read and post a comment in the PR?
2024-07-18 16:14:08 <@salimma:fedora.im> oh, this does not affect my use case though
2024-07-18 16:14:16 <@james:fedora.im> Doesn't need to be during the meeting.
2024-07-18 16:14:31 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> it should cover your use-case.. so what is your use case Michel Lind 🎩 so i can add it
2024-07-18 16:14:44 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> i was hoping to cover all unversioned SONAMEs
2024-07-18 16:14:47 <@salimma:fedora.im> for mine it's ... a tool maintained by a project that they unfathomably chose to fork for another project, and when building the fork that tool is installed and includes an unversioned so :(
2024-07-18 16:14:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 
2024-07-18 16:14:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the only case I'm slightly worried about is:
2024-07-18 16:14:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> > The DSO is not linked against and is loaded at runtime by the implementing application  (i.e. `dlopen()`)
2024-07-18 16:15:03 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> this implies that it's okay for it to exist in `/usr/lib64`
2024-07-18 16:15:07 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> there just specific guidance for vulkan and openxr because that is where i've been focused
2024-07-18 16:15:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> which... I'm very wary about
2024-07-18 16:15:27 <@salimma:fedora.im> so I think in my case (zeek and spicy) libspicy should just either be fixed to version its soname or I should package the standalone spicy and force zeek to use that
2024-07-18 16:15:45 <@james:fedora.im> My understanding is that is kind of true about vulkan/openxr
2024-07-18 16:15:56 <@salimma:fedora.im> > - This means that they are not located directly in /usr/lib or /usr/lib64,
2024-07-18 16:15:56 <@salimma:fedora.im> this seems clear though
2024-07-18 16:15:56 <@salimma:fedora.im> 
2024-07-18 16:16:06 <@james:fedora.im> In that nobody will ever convince them otherwise, and nobody wants to say no.
2024-07-18 16:16:18 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the writing for the conditions makes me think they are not a combination of conditions, and only any one of them have to be true
2024-07-18 16:16:33 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> right before that, a condition for the default policy is:
2024-07-18 16:16:33 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> * The DSO is located in a private directory (i.e. not located directly in /usr/lib[64] or in another directory listed as a library path for the linker)
2024-07-18 16:16:45 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the way I would prefer to read it is that all three conditions need to be true
2024-07-18 16:16:49 <@michel:one.ems.host> drats chat.fedoraproject.org went down on me
2024-07-18 16:17:17 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> this was the intent. more than willing to try to make it more clear.
2024-07-18 16:17:24 <@salimma:fedora.im> one of my message is lost but yeah I was just saying this
2024-07-18 16:18:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah, I think this is a wordsmithing issue... 
2024-07-18 16:18:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> > The following conditions MUST be true in which DSOs are allowed to remain unversioned.
2024-07-18 16:18:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 
2024-07-18 16:18:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> This should be be written as:
2024-07-18 16:18:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 
2024-07-18 16:18:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> > There are a few conditions that need to exist in which DSOs are allowed to remain unversioned.
2024-07-18 16:18:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 
2024-07-18 16:18:41 <@james:fedora.im> Ahh, I see, upon better reading you want to change how vulkan/etc work?
2024-07-18 16:19:03 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> okay, i give me a sec to propose a quick re-write of the default case to use the RFC language
2024-07-18 16:19:43 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I am confused about adding ldconfig configuration snippets
2024-07-18 16:19:54 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that implies vulkan loader modules are actually cached by ldconfig
2024-07-18 16:20:29 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I do get the special exception part, it's written there, but I think I missed something in all the conversations about this
2024-07-18 16:24:21 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> okay, i've updated the PR with more clear RFC language for the default case. i hope that helps
2024-07-18 16:25:30 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> vulkan and openxr loader (i.e. vulkan-loader and openxr-loader) have been specifically designed to use the default linker to find things and it was an intentional design decision
2024-07-18 16:26:06 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> the vulkan-loader and openxr-loader act as a trampoline in the load path, with implementing applications linking against the loader directly
2024-07-18 16:27:36 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> airlied commented about vulkan drivers on https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1365 and they do need to visible
2024-07-18 16:28:54 <@james:fedora.im> I think it looks fine to me.
2024-07-18 16:30:27 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> the other thing that i've kept in mind is https://gitlab.collabora.com/vivek/libcapsule/-/blob/master/doc/Strategy.txt which is being used by steam and other things implementing libcapsule. getting the host graphics stack into the container is done through probing the ldcache
2024-07-18 16:31:18 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> i'm still learning, so forgive me if i've misunderstood some of this
2024-07-18 16:34:46 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> this is... fine
2024-07-18 16:34:52 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we're working with the constraints of what we have
2024-07-18 16:35:05 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I wish the vulkan people did a better job here though :(
2024-07-18 16:35:14 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> (ie Khronos)
2024-07-18 16:38:46 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> daMaestro: for RFC language using "not", the "not" also needs to be treated the same as MUST/SHOULD/MAY/etc.
2024-07-18 16:39:10 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> okay, so it would be `MUST NOT`?
2024-07-18 16:41:05 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yes
2024-07-18 16:41:15 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> k, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2119#section-2 i'll make those updates now
2024-07-18 16:42:34 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> okay, that is fixed
2024-07-18 16:43:39 <@james:fedora.im> I added a comment. Hopefully we can get +5 in the comments and merge it soon.
2024-07-18 16:44:22 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> per last meeting i was able to attend, i started implementing this in the package set i've been working on for XR and so far haven't ran into any issues -- so that's good at least
2024-07-18 16:45:08 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I put a +1 in the ticket
2024-07-18 16:45:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> just asked for the commits to be squashed so that we have a single clean commit
2024-07-18 16:46:14 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> it should be squashed already, so i'll be sure that is the case during the merge
2024-07-18 16:46:18 <@james:fedora.im> Fair enough, I'm mostly against squashes ... but not enough to argue about it for this.
2024-07-18 16:48:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> two commits that say "update guidelines" are kind of pointless
2024-07-18 16:48:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> if they are meaningful commits, for sure I agree
2024-07-18 16:48:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but stub and fixup commits, less so
2024-07-18 16:50:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> anyway, looks good now from what I see, so +1
2024-07-18 16:50:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> can we get 4 other +1 in the PR?
2024-07-18 16:50:56 <@jsteffan:fedora.im> i oops, it's fixed now.
2024-07-18 16:51:05 <@limb:fedora.im> I added mine
2024-07-18 16:55:45 <@james:fedora.im> Okay, I think we've done as much as we can on that (and looks hopeful to get merged). With the 5 minutes we have left...
2024-07-18 16:55:47 <@james:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1374
2024-07-18 16:56:04 <@james:fedora.im> I think this is a simple merge, but thought I'd ping everyone to see if anybody objects
2024-07-18 16:57:01 <@james:fedora.im> And also if anyone has anything else we can talk about in 4 minutes ... speak up now :)
2024-07-18 16:57:03 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> this seems fine
2024-07-18 16:57:32 <@james:fedora.im> I will be out next week, and the week after is flock (I'll be there). So probably no meeting the next two weeks.
2024-07-18 16:57:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 👍️
2024-07-18 16:58:32 <@limb:fedora.im> I used a baseball metaphor in a work meeting and I think it was sufficiently out of character that I broke a couple people.
2024-07-18 16:58:42 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 🤣
2024-07-18 16:59:14 <@james:fedora.im> Sportsball ftw ;)
2024-07-18 17:00:35 <@james:fedora.im> !endmeeting