2024-11-21 17:00:02 <@james:fedora.im> !startmeeting fpc

2024-11-21 17:00:03 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2024-11-21 17:00:02 UTC
2024-11-21 17:00:03 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'fpc'
2024-11-21 17:00:05 <@james:fedora.im> !topic Roll Call
2024-11-21 17:00:13 <@tibbs:fedora.im> Hey.
2024-11-21 17:00:28 <@limb:fedora.im> !hi
2024-11-21 17:00:28 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Gwyn Ciesla (limb) - she / her / hers
2024-11-21 17:00:29 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I have an office party in just a few minutes, so I will have to head out soon.
2024-11-21 17:00:35 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2024-11-21 17:00:37 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2024-11-21 17:00:41 <@james:fedora.im> !hi
2024-11-21 17:00:42 <@zodbot:fedora.im> James Antill (james)
2024-11-21 17:01:16 <@james:fedora.im> Jason ティビツ: Nice, what is the party for?
2024-11-21 17:01:38 <@tibbs:fedora.im> Just a generic holiday party.
2024-11-21 17:01:52 <@james:fedora.im> Ahh, for thanksgiving?
2024-11-21 17:02:26 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I suppose.  It's a university to we aren't supposed to have anything other than the most generic types of events.
2024-11-21 17:02:54 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I'm not an office party person myself so it's more if a "have to go" than a "want to go" thing for me.
2024-11-21 17:04:09 <@james:fedora.im> yeh, it's been a long time since I've been in an office much ... seemed like a weird time to have a party ... but then "everyone" loves a party ;)
2024-11-21 17:05:21 <@james:fedora.im> There's only 4 four of us at the moment ... did you want to talk about "#1380 Versioning: Add SCM-prefixed snapshot form" before you go?
2024-11-21 17:06:04 <@tibbs:fedora.im> All I can really say about that is that we should try to keep the list simple, but if something got lost in the migration from the wiki then we should probably put it back.
2024-11-21 17:06:21 <@tibbs:fedora.im> Problem is that I've mostly forgotten how to even check what used to be in the wiki.
2024-11-21 17:06:59 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, apart from git history ... I don't know.
2024-11-21 17:07:33 <@tibbs:fedora.im> There is a way to see the old pages before deletion.  Just something you stick on the end of the URL.
2024-11-21 17:07:45 <@tibbs:fedora.im> Then you have access to all of the wiki history.
2024-11-21 17:08:24 <@salimma:fedora.im> !hi
2024-11-21 17:08:25 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
2024-11-21 17:08:36 <@salimma:fedora.im> sorry, errands ran late because it's snowing hard out there
2024-11-21 17:09:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> We have plenty of packages that follow this form, it's used in other distributions, and it used to be something we did too... I don't think it's unreasonable to add it, and then come back later about revising our guidance here
2024-11-21 17:09:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> actually, I think we're probably at the point we can retire the guidance about snapshot-in-release and start actively encouraging packages using this form to switch away 
2024-11-21 17:10:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we mostly kept it around because of RHEL 7
2024-11-21 17:10:43 <@tibbs:fedora.im> https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Packaging:Versioning&oldid=487435
2024-11-21 17:10:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and now that's gone, we can start actively simplifying away that stuff
2024-11-21 17:11:13 <@tibbs:fedora.im> That's the last version of the versioning guidelines in the wiki for reference.
2024-11-21 17:11:14 <@salimma:fedora.im> most of the SIGs have switched anyway right? I think Golang's go2rpm moved to supporting it in version field a while ago
2024-11-21 17:11:20 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yup
2024-11-21 17:11:35 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the last stragglers are actually the forge macros and the kernel package
2024-11-21 17:11:46 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but forgeversion now exists for the forge macros
2024-11-21 17:12:07 <@salimma:fedora.im> iirc gotmax fixed the forge macros ... that was tied to the Golang thing, they were heavily using it
2024-11-21 17:12:09 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the kernel package is... special
2024-11-21 17:12:11 <@gotmax:matrix.org> But it's broken on RHEL 10 and the maintainers ignore my bug reports
2024-11-21 17:12:16 <@gotmax:matrix.org> forgeversion, that is
2024-11-21 17:12:18 <@salimma:fedora.im> oh sigh
2024-11-21 17:12:47 <@salimma:fedora.im> Stream/RHEL seem a bit challenging to fix once they're branched from Fedora
2024-11-21 17:12:59 <@gotmax:matrix.org> It's one thing when they ignore bug reports we file for other software, but when they're shipping a broken version of code _I_ wrote...
2024-11-21 17:13:02 <@salimma:fedora.im> but we can ship override in epel macros right
2024-11-21 17:13:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yes
2024-11-21 17:13:11 <@salimma:fedora.im> nods
2024-11-21 17:13:12 <@gotmax:matrix.org> Yes, I'll probably end up doing that
2024-11-21 17:13:30 <@salimma:fedora.im> I know how it feel, we have had packages pulled into RHEL and it's "oh by the way this is happening", not "do you think it's a good idea"
2024-11-21 17:14:04 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I've had this situation too as upstream, as principal developer, and as primary Fedora maintainer
2024-11-21 17:14:17 <@gotmax:matrix.org> I'll work on an override for EPEL 10. The code to install the files without conflicts is already there for epel9, so it won't be too much work.
2024-11-21 17:14:26 <@gotmax:matrix.org> Yup...
2024-11-21 17:14:28 <@zodbot:fedora.im> salimma has already given cookies to gotmax23 during the F41 timeframe
2024-11-21 17:14:40 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ngompa gave a cookie to gotmax23. They now have 39 cookies, 2 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-11-21 17:14:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> There's not a lot we can do about it as non-Red Hatters, unfortunately.
2024-11-21 17:15:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I was surprised they dropped rpmlint from RHEL though
2024-11-21 17:16:03 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I guess they don't expect RHEL folks to validate their packages as they develop them?
2024-11-21 17:16:06 <@salimma:fedora.im> wut
2024-11-21 17:16:18 <@salimma:fedora.im> maybe theyre' all in on rpminspect?
2024-11-21 17:16:58 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> rpminspect isn't in RHEL either
2024-11-21 17:17:06 <@salimma:fedora.im> oh dear
2024-11-21 17:17:19 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 🤷‍♂️
2024-11-21 17:17:23 <@salimma:fedora.im> maybe the secret is that RH is using a lot of EPEL internally
2024-11-21 17:17:35 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> heh
2024-11-21 17:17:40 <@salimma:fedora.im> and in a way keeping things there makes it easier to update, no navigating pesky ACGs
2024-11-21 17:17:40 <@gotmax:matrix.org> pyproject-rpm-macros does that, for example
2024-11-21 17:18:14 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> in any case, can we just merge this PR and have a separate task to simplify the snapshot versioning docs?
2024-11-21 17:18:45 <@james:fedora.im> There's 5 of us, so if we all vote we can do anything ;)
2024-11-21 17:18:53 <@salimma:fedora.im> can someone send the link? 1380 right
2024-11-21 17:19:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yep: https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1380
2024-11-21 17:19:54 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm +1 to merging it, obviously :)
2024-11-21 17:20:11 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> hey - sorry, I lost track of time
2024-11-21 17:20:19 <@salimma:fedora.im> so we're keeping the form without scm for now?
2024-11-21 17:20:49 <@salimma:fedora.im> if the objection from Carl previously is that there are too many forms, I personally would rather the line 3 (number.revision) to be excised :)
2024-11-21 17:21:19 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yes, I think we can do that in a followup
2024-11-21 17:21:53 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I think it's important that snapshot versioning should maintain vcs name and snapshot date at the minimum
2024-11-21 17:22:19 <@salimma:fedora.im> one thing I noticed (not part of this PR) is we never explained what number should be either
2024-11-21 17:22:37 <@salimma:fedora.im> I initially thought it's just going to be the same as revision, but there's number followed by revision...
2024-11-21 17:22:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah, I think this number has been used in various ways because it is different based on the SCM
2024-11-21 17:23:03 <@salimma:fedora.im> yeah but "`+<revision>+` is either a short git commit hash, a subversion revision number,
2024-11-21 17:23:03 <@salimma:fedora.im> 	
2024-11-21 17:23:03 <@salimma:fedora.im> or something else useful in identifying the precise revision"
2024-11-21 17:23:08 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> e.g. mercurial has both a revlog number and a shorthash
2024-11-21 17:23:13 <@salimma:fedora.im> oh
2024-11-21 17:23:16 <@james:fedora.im> Fabio Valentini 🤒: No problem, we are just discussing versioning for the 666th time ;)
2024-11-21 17:23:26 <@salimma:fedora.im> right so for mercurial you can list both the number and the hash
2024-11-21 17:23:49 <@salimma:fedora.im> at some point we might be better off just writing this in regex form :P
2024-11-21 17:23:54 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> lol
2024-11-21 17:24:16 <@salimma:fedora.im> can we actually just provide a couple of examples for each VCS? that will clarify what these things are
2024-11-21 17:24:20 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah
2024-11-21 17:24:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I think that's reasonable to do
2024-11-21 17:24:28 <@salimma:fedora.im> right now I don't even see an example for svn, forget about hg
2024-11-21 17:24:50 <@james:fedora.im> Do people still use SVN?
2024-11-21 17:24:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah I have a couple of these I can reference for cvs, svn, hg, git, and bzr
2024-11-21 17:25:09 <@salimma:fedora.im> so the question (for me) is merge now or merge after we have concrete examples
2024-11-21 17:25:14 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> James Antill: well... Kevin Kofler manages his projects with SVN :)
2024-11-21 17:25:30 <@salimma:fedora.im> I'm ok voting to merge now provided there will be a follow up
2024-11-21 17:25:41 <@limb:fedora.im> That works for me.
2024-11-21 17:25:43 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah and I'm happy to add examples in a followup PR
2024-11-21 17:25:53 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> god knows we need them anyway
2024-11-21 17:25:56 <@salimma:fedora.im> and yeah I guess we also have some BSD-derived packages? The ones I touched never needed snapshots but it is possible
2024-11-21 17:26:03 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yep
2024-11-21 17:26:06 <@james:fedora.im> I'm fine merging now if we agree it's better, and doesn't _need_ the followup ... even if the followup will make it better
2024-11-21 17:26:15 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> openbsd stuff is still cvs
2024-11-21 17:26:20 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> netbsd moved to hg
2024-11-21 17:26:27 <@salimma:fedora.im> yeah. I think FreeBSD moved to git
2024-11-21 17:26:29 <@salimma:fedora.im> or svn?
2024-11-21 17:26:31 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yep
2024-11-21 17:26:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> freebsd was svn->git
2024-11-21 17:26:50 <@salimma:fedora.im> anyway. do we formally vote now?
2024-11-21 17:26:55 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yup
2024-11-21 17:26:59 <@james:fedora.im> Sure
2024-11-21 17:27:00 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I already did +1
2024-11-21 17:27:10 <@salimma:fedora.im> +1
2024-11-21 17:27:18 <@limb:fedora.im> +1
2024-11-21 17:27:25 <@james:fedora.im> +1 (it's only two lines ;)
2024-11-21 17:27:27 <@salimma:fedora.im> let's not keep James from his party :)
2024-11-21 17:27:43 <@james:fedora.im> That was tibbs ... I'm at a party of one.
2024-11-21 17:27:46 <@salimma:fedora.im> oh, Jason I mean... and he's already gone
2024-11-21 17:27:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm a party of zero :P
2024-11-21 17:28:30 <@james:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: Some good timey whimey stuff going on there?
2024-11-21 17:28:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> :D
2024-11-21 17:28:49 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> most people would call me a buzzkill :P
2024-11-21 17:28:58 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I'm good with merging this now, followup bikeshedding can happen later
2024-11-21 17:29:15 <@james:fedora.im> Okay, I'm gonna take that as a +1 then
2024-11-21 17:29:23 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I'm good with merging this now, followup bikeshedding can happen later: +1
2024-11-21 17:32:11 <@james:fedora.im> https://imagecomics.com/comics/releases/buzzkill-tp ... seems highly rated.
2024-11-21 17:32:24 <@james:fedora.im> !topic Open Floor
2024-11-21 17:32:32 <@james:fedora.im> Anything anyone wants to talk about?
2024-11-21 17:33:00 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> There's only a lot of stuff that I *don't* want to talk about
2024-11-21 17:33:40 <@limb:fedora.im> Oy. Same.
2024-11-21 17:34:10 <@james:fedora.im> That's what therapists are for
2024-11-21 17:37:33 <@james:fedora.im> more, like way more
2024-11-21 17:37:50 <@salimma:fedora.im> and children of therapists too
2024-11-21 17:37:59 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> absolutely
2024-11-21 17:38:47 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, normalizing mental health is going to shift the needle a lot
2024-11-21 17:39:27 <@james:fedora.im> And on that note...
2024-11-21 17:40:01 <@james:fedora.im> !endmeeting