2024-12-11 18:00:34 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !startmeeting EPEL (2024-12-11)

2024-12-11 18:00:34 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2024-12-11 18:00:34 UTC
2024-12-11 18:00:35 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'EPEL (2024-12-11)'
2024-12-11 18:00:41 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !meetingname epel
2024-12-11 18:00:41 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !topic aloha
2024-12-11 18:00:41 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting Name is now epel
2024-12-11 18:00:48 <@dherrera:fedora.im> !hi
2024-12-11 18:00:49 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Diego Herrera (dherrera) - he / him / his
2024-12-11 18:00:49 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> !hi
2024-12-11 18:00:52 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Carl George (carlwgeorge) - he / him / his
2024-12-11 18:00:54 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> morning
2024-12-11 18:01:07 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Morning nirik 
2024-12-11 18:01:14 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Hi Diego Herrera and Carl George 
2024-12-11 18:02:37 <@salimma:fedora.im> !hi
2024-12-11 18:02:39 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
2024-12-11 18:02:54 <@jonathanspw:fedora.im> !hi
2024-12-11 18:02:55 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Jonathan Wright (jonathanspw)
2024-12-11 18:03:12 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Hi Michel Lind 🎩 🇬🇧 UTC until Dec 14 and Jonathan Wright 
2024-12-11 18:03:29 <@jonathanspw:fedora.im> So many michels!
2024-12-11 18:04:21 <@salimma:fedora.im> oh is the Element bug striking again? it looks fine on web
2024-12-11 18:04:38 <@salimma:fedora.im> (the Android app seems to duplicate the tag for every emoji in the display name)
2024-12-11 18:05:17 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !topic EPEL Issues https://pagure.io/epel/issues
2024-12-11 18:05:17 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/epel/issues?tags=meeting&status=Open
2024-12-11 18:05:18 <@jonathanspw:fedora.im> Ah I'm on android app right now
2024-12-11 18:05:46 <@tdawson:fedora.im> The only open issue deals with epel10.  So I'm going to just to the next agenda item.
2024-12-11 18:05:53 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !topic EPEL 10
2024-12-11 18:06:02 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !epel 300
2024-12-11 18:06:03 <@zodbot:fedora.im> **epel #300** (https://pagure.io/epel/issue/300):**EPEL 10 launch**
2024-12-11 18:06:03 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Opened:** a month ago by carlwgeorge
2024-12-11 18:06:03 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Last Updated:** a week ago
2024-12-11 18:06:03 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Assignee:** carlwgeorge
2024-12-11 18:06:03 <@zodbot:fedora.im> 
2024-12-11 18:06:34 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Who wants to kick off the EPEL 10 discussion ... Carl George  did you want to?
2024-12-11 18:08:00 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Maybe Carl had to step away for a minute or so, I think I can give a summary.
2024-12-11 18:08:15 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> yeah sorry was prepping some lunch
2024-12-11 18:08:23 <@tdawson:fedora.im> As far as I know, everything technical is in place .... and it looks like Carl is back.
2024-12-11 18:08:29 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> trying to multitask never works out for me 🙃
2024-12-11 18:08:30 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> 🍱
2024-12-11 18:09:30 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> the announcement is queued up for the commblog, preview is here https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/?p=14289&preview=1&_ppp=e6429a1151
2024-12-11 18:10:00 <@neil:fedora.im> !hi
2024-12-11 18:10:01 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neil Hanlon (neil) - he / him / his
2024-12-11 18:10:09 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Hi Neil Hanlon 
2024-12-11 18:10:10 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> we'll hit publish once the centos announcement goes out, which should be this week (was hoping for today but that's looking doubtful)
2024-12-11 18:10:42 <@salimma:fedora.im> Nice
2024-12-11 18:10:43 <@rcallicotte:fedora.im> !hi
2024-12-11 18:10:44 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Robby Callicotte (rcallicotte) - he / him / his
2024-12-11 18:10:53 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Hi Robby Callicotte 
2024-12-11 18:10:56 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> i have an epel10 old business thing that i'll save for that section, it's not technically related to the launch
2024-12-11 18:11:08 <@salimma:fedora.im> I'll be in the office most of the day tomorrow so can boost any announcement provided it's before evening UK time
2024-12-11 18:11:30 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Sounds good.
2024-12-11 18:11:56 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> also of not, got this issue open with fedora marketing https://gitlab.com/fedora/marketing/marketing-planning/-/issues/188
2024-12-11 18:12:02 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> also of note, got this issue open with fedora marketing https://gitlab.com/fedora/marketing/marketing-planning/-/issues/188
2024-12-11 18:12:37 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I think if it releases tomorrow, it will be good.   12/12  :)
2024-12-11 18:12:51 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Easy to remember ... at least for me.
2024-12-11 18:13:05 <@salimma:fedora.im> nice
2024-12-11 18:13:13 <@salimma:fedora.im> also less confusing between YMD/DMY/MDY
2024-12-11 18:13:20 <@salimma:fedora.im> ooh 12+12=24
2024-12-11 18:13:34 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> nice
2024-12-11 18:14:00 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> i think that's it for the launch issue, we can move on unless folks have questions
2024-12-11 18:14:22 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Thank you Carl.   Moving on
2024-12-11 18:14:29 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !topic Old Business
2024-12-11 18:14:50 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Carl George: before you eat your lunch ... you said you had some old business?
2024-12-11 18:15:47 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> indeed
2024-12-11 18:16:09 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> just wrapped up a meeting with subman and dnf folks related to that releasever_minor problem we talked about previously
2024-12-11 18:16:21 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Ohh ... how did that go?
2024-12-11 18:16:59 <@davide:cavalca.name> !hi
2024-12-11 18:17:01 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Davide Cavalca (dcavalca) - he / him / his
2024-12-11 18:17:12 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Hi Davide Cavalca 
2024-12-11 18:17:17 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> while the subman folks didn't completely rule it out, changing releasever to 10.0 to accommodate setting releasever_minor (in accordance with the current dnf implementation) is doubtful
2024-12-11 18:18:00 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Looking through the ticket, and the various things it breaks .... I think it's doubtful too.
2024-12-11 18:18:38 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> instead what we're going to try is to keep the dnf implementation, but add the ability to do overrides of sort to explicitly set releasever_major and releasever_minor via redhat-release provides, which will give us the desired state of setting releasever_minor while not changing releasever
2024-12-11 18:19:13 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> and somehow i got on a roll and volunteered to do a pull request upstream for that, so wish me luck
2024-12-11 18:19:41 <@salimma:fedora.im> 🍀
2024-12-11 18:19:43 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Does that mean that dnf won't change?   Or that your pull request will be for upstream?
2024-12-11 18:19:55 <@salimma:fedora.im> would dnf change for 10.1?
2024-12-11 18:19:58 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Does that mean that dnf won't change?   Or that your pull request will be for upstream dnf?
2024-12-11 18:20:30 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> it would be an upstream dnf pr, that will either get added as a patch to the rhel 10 dnf package before ga, or done as a rebase
2024-12-11 18:21:10 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> technically a change, but an additive one, not changing the splitting mechanism that upstream wants to keep for compatibility with zypper's similar implementation
2024-12-11 18:21:26 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Cool.  I know it will be some work, but it sounds workable.
2024-12-11 18:21:47 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> better than setting our own variable with a scriptlet 😉
2024-12-11 18:22:00 <@dherrera:fedora.im> will that require any changes on how we are handling koji though? or everything is fine on that side?
2024-12-11 18:22:02 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> (which is still the emergency fallback plan)
2024-12-11 18:22:32 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> no changes on koji side as far as i know, once releasever_minor gets set things just align and all is well in the epel universe
2024-12-11 18:22:34 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Yep ... at least we had a proof of concept, so in an emergency, we can use that ... but I agree, I'd rather not.
2024-12-11 18:23:21 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Yep ... at least we had a proof of concept for the script, so in an emergency, we can use that ... but I agree, I'd rather not.
2024-12-11 18:23:26 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> that should cover that item, anyone else have other old business?
2024-12-11 18:24:25 <@tdawson:fedora.im> From the silence ... it sounds like that's it for Old Business
2024-12-11 18:24:51 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !topic General Issues / Open Floor
2024-12-11 18:25:06 <@tdawson:fedora.im> work outages are not fun 
2024-12-11 18:25:20 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Does anyone have anything for Open Floor?
2024-12-11 18:25:54 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> Did we determine meetings for the next few weeks? I will be out after friday until jan 6th.
2024-12-11 18:26:06 <@salimma:fedora.im> I don't think we have
2024-12-11 18:26:11 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Nope, but I was just about to bring that up.
2024-12-11 18:26:28 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> cancel them all lol
2024-12-11 18:26:30 <@tdawson:fedora.im> So, definatly Dec 25 and Jan 1 let's cancel ... but what about the other weeks.
2024-12-11 18:26:30 <@salimma:fedora.im> I'm around next week but will likely either still be jetlagged / have errands to run so can't promise to be lucid
2024-12-11 18:26:51 <@salimma:fedora.im> agreed on canceling dec 25 and jan 1
2024-12-11 18:27:05 <@neil:fedora.im> i'll be around next week, but out after that til jan 7th or so
2024-12-11 18:27:33 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> i'm for sure out dec 25, jan 1, and jan 8.  i imagine the last one most people will be back so we don't have to cancel that one just on my account.
2024-12-11 18:27:56 <@salimma:fedora.im> lucky y'all, I plan to be crunching work until performance review time but then will escape for a family vacation in January :)
2024-12-11 18:28:10 <@salimma:fedora.im> so... are we meeting next week?
2024-12-11 18:28:30 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> i'll be around
2024-12-11 18:28:38 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I'll be around too.
2024-12-11 18:28:57 <@neil:fedora.im> we can have an EPEL holiday party :) 
2024-12-11 18:29:03 <@neil:fedora.im> i.e. meeting
2024-12-11 18:29:43 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I'm ok having it next week, but I'm also OK not having it as a bit of a holiday present to everyone.
2024-12-11 18:29:46 <@salimma:fedora.im> bring your ugly sweaters everyone
2024-12-11 18:31:20 <@tdawson:fedora.im> How about this, no more meeting until Jan 8th.   Is that ok?
2024-12-11 18:31:27 <@salimma:fedora.im> +1
2024-12-11 18:31:31 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> +1
2024-12-11 18:31:40 <@neil:fedora.im> +1 and happy holidays, all :) 
2024-12-11 18:31:41 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> sounds like a winner
2024-12-11 18:31:48 <@salimma:fedora.im> happy holidays everyone
2024-12-11 18:32:11 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Looks like even if we have a -1, it will still pass.  ... Ya!!
2024-12-11 18:32:38 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> oh, i have one open floor item too, when we're ready
2024-12-11 18:32:44 <@salimma:fedora.im> 🎅
2024-12-11 18:32:56 <@salimma:fedora.im> we are on open floor I think
2024-12-11 18:33:01 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> yup
2024-12-11 18:33:05 <@rcallicotte:fedora.im> Happy holidays!!
2024-12-11 18:33:08 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I was just about to ask if we had any more Open Floor stuff ... so go for it Carl.
2024-12-11 18:33:16 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2330296
2024-12-11 18:34:12 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> tldr, cekit in epel8 doesn't install, and i believe has never been installable.  we don't cover this scenario in our retirement policy.  it doesn't exactly fit under "no time" or any of the others.
2024-12-11 18:34:12 <@salimma:fedora.im> seems reasonable
2024-12-11 18:34:41 <@salimma:fedora.im> package never worked, retiring sounds like it will be some space saving and also doesn't waste people's time trying to install it
2024-12-11 18:34:54 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> i was thinking we could add an "other" section to be more open ended, the main question would be how much notice would it need.
2024-12-11 18:35:19 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> or we can just add this scenario exactly, "uninstallable or otherwise broken"
2024-12-11 18:35:21 <@salimma:fedora.im> oh... speaking of that Davide Cavalca has this wishlist that fedpkg mockbuild would get a --postinstall option
2024-12-11 18:35:52 <@salimma:fedora.im> Carl George: but if the package has ever been installable and suddenly FTIs we don't always want to allow it to be retired immediately right?
2024-12-11 18:35:54 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Ha it never worked?  Or never been in EPEL8?   Looking at Willit - it's only been uninstallable from the beginning of December - https://tdawson.fedorapeople.org/epel/willit/epel8/status-wont-install.html
2024-12-11 18:35:57 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> It's hard to know if someone else would want to step up and fix it... but retirement seems ok, someone else can unretire it if they like
2024-12-11 18:36:00 <@salimma:fedora.im> if the effort to fix it is too much, yes, I agree
2024-12-11 18:36:28 <@salimma:fedora.im> from Carl's analysis based on the version of packaging it needs it's never installable... or did previous versions want older versions of packaging?
2024-12-11 18:36:57 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> fun fact, epel10 updates have been having the automated test for installability run the past few days, but it's broken and doesn't run with epel enabled so if there are deps in epel it reports a false failure.  a step in the right direction though.
2024-12-11 18:37:27 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> it has a dep on a minimum version that has never been in rhel8, so i don't think it's ever worked
2024-12-11 18:37:34 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> crawl, walk, run... ;)
2024-12-11 18:37:36 <@salimma:fedora.im> heck my installability tests in Rawhide seem to pretend they fail even though I can see a successful DNF transaction.... so even in Fedora things are flaky
2024-12-11 18:37:49 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> right, it might be quite case by case
2024-12-11 18:38:22 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> the very first version in epel8 already had this minimum version
2024-12-11 18:39:18 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Yep .... so I agree, it looks like it's never worked.  Willit only changed the date because the package was updated.   So I agree, just retire it from epel8.
2024-12-11 18:39:57 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I seem to be very agreeable today.  😀
2024-12-11 18:40:06 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> yeah for this one i recommended just outright retiring, and told the maintainer that an email was optional since it's not in policy
2024-12-11 18:40:20 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> no one should be mad about this going away because it's never worked 😀
2024-12-11 18:40:55 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> the bigger question (that we don't have to answer today) is the policy change.  if someone wants to volunteer to draft up text for an "other" section in the retirement policy i'd love to hand this off.
2024-12-11 18:41:21 <@salimma:fedora.im> I have a big writing backlog so pass for now :)
2024-12-11 18:41:35 <@tdawson:fedora.im> So the policy would be something like "If it never installed, it can be retired without any extra stuff to do."  ?
2024-12-11 18:42:06 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I'll take it.
2024-12-11 18:42:25 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> well, either we go that route to cover this exact scenario, or we do the "other" catchall
2024-12-11 18:42:32 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Although I think I'll add "... without any extra stuff to do, but optionally you can send an email."
2024-12-11 18:42:50 <@salimma:fedora.im> I feel like there are two FTI scenarios
2024-12-11 18:42:55 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> i guess we could cover both, like a note that says "if you have some other scenario that you think justifies a retirement but isn't covered here, reach out to the steering committee"
2024-12-11 18:43:18 <@salimma:fedora.im> if it never installs, yeet it immediately, if it used to install, then maybe treat it the same as security retirement - "retire if fixing is too difficult"
2024-12-11 18:43:33 <@salimma:fedora.im> so slightly higher barrier but hopefully not unreasonably so
2024-12-11 18:43:34 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> maybe there aren't any other scenarios we want to all, since "no time or desire" is already super broad
2024-12-11 18:43:41 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> maybe there aren't any other scenarios we want to allow, since "no time or desire" is already super broad
2024-12-11 18:43:53 <@salimma:fedora.im> good point. I think no time or desire covers it
2024-12-11 18:44:01 <@salimma:fedora.im> we just need to list uninstallability as one of the conditions
2024-12-11 18:44:22 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> in this exact case there is desire it seems, it keeps getting updated, it just still doesn't work
2024-12-11 18:44:39 <@salimma:fedora.im> well... desire to fix it though, not desire to package it :)
2024-12-11 18:44:42 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> thanks for picking that up troy
2024-12-11 18:44:53 <@zodbot:fedora.im> carlwgeorge gave a cookie to tdawson. They now have 82 cookies, 5 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-12-11 18:45:09 <@zodbot:fedora.im> yselkowitz has already given cookies to tdawson during the F41 timeframe
2024-12-11 18:45:20 <@zodbot:fedora.im> salimma has already given cookies to tdawson during the F41 timeframe
2024-12-11 18:45:21 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> will be happy to review once you submit the pr
2024-12-11 18:46:42 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Yep, I won't merge until I get a review.  If it seems controverial, a vote.  But to me it seems logically like what we want, it just wasn't spelled out.
2024-12-11 18:47:40 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Thanks for bringing this up.
2024-12-11 18:47:48 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> Yeah seems we all agree, and just need to nail down the wording.  Lots of our docs changes are like that.
2024-12-11 18:47:49 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Is there anything else for Open Floor?
2024-12-11 18:47:58 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> Nothing else from me
2024-12-11 18:48:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2024-12-11 18:48:40 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2024-12-11 18:48:45 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Hi Conan Kudo 
2024-12-11 18:49:27 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Just in time for me to say if there isn't anything else, we can end early.  😀
2024-12-11 18:49:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> are we going to announce EPEL 10 and CS10 today? :)
2024-12-11 18:50:01 <@tdawson:fedora.im> It looks like it's going to be tomorrow.
2024-12-11 18:50:12 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> ah okay
2024-12-11 18:50:23 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Which will be much more memorable, cuz it's 12/12
2024-12-11 18:50:31 <@tdawson:fedora.im> And 12 + 12 = 24
2024-12-11 18:50:39 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> heh
2024-12-11 18:50:48 <@tdawson:fedora.im> And all sorts of other fun math ... maybe. 
2024-12-11 18:50:57 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> something something 42
2024-12-11 18:51:09 <@tdawson:fedora.im> *laughs*
2024-12-11 18:52:07 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Anything else before we end the meeting?
2024-12-11 18:53:00 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> nothing from me
2024-12-11 18:53:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm 50/50 on being around next week
2024-12-11 18:53:12 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: Oh, and we agreed that we will have no more meetings until January 8th.
2024-12-11 18:53:17 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> definitely not going to be around after that
2024-12-11 18:53:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> works for me
2024-12-11 18:53:28 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> what about office hours ?
2024-12-11 18:53:45 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> postponed to 8th?  or canceled for january?
2024-12-11 18:53:53 <@dherrera:fedora.im> I doubt anyone would be around on the 1st
2024-12-11 18:54:11 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Oh ya.   I wouldn't mind postponing until the 8th if people want.
2024-12-11 18:54:14 <@salimma:fedora.im> if we postpone it we might miss the next one because it's right after fosdem, right
2024-12-11 18:54:21 <@salimma:fedora.im> oh, I mean if we cancel
2024-12-11 18:54:27 <@salimma:fedora.im> so postponing is probably better
2024-12-11 18:55:17 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I think it would be good to have it on the 8th.  And it's optional also ... so if people don't show, it's ok.
2024-12-11 18:55:20 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> I think it's fine just to skip January
2024-12-11 18:55:59 <@neil:fedora.im> no pref from me, i usually don't catch office hours... though it's on my calendar now! that's a start :D
2024-12-11 18:56:13 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> But I also won't be around either the 1st or 8th, and y'all are welcome to chat without me.  Not like there is an agenda for that one.
2024-12-11 18:57:24 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Yep, since there isn't an agenda, and if there is any serious stuff, it goes to this meeting ... let's just say it's moved a week and see how many people show up.
2024-12-11 18:58:23 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I'll send out an email about the meetings right after we end.
2024-12-11 18:58:23 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> I'll edit it in fedora calendar
2024-12-11 18:59:01 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Thanks.   Everytime I edit the calendar ... it doesn't stay.   Always odd.
2024-12-11 18:59:42 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Looks like our time is up.  Thank you all for all you do for EPEL and it's community.
2024-12-11 19:00:09 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I'll talk to ya'll next year.  Have fun, safe holidays!
2024-12-11 19:00:44 <@dherrera:fedora.im> Thanks Troy ^^
2024-12-11 19:00:53 <@zodbot:fedora.im> dherrera has already given cookies to tdawson during the F41 timeframe
2024-12-11 19:01:02 <@zodbot:fedora.im> dherrera has already given cookies to tdawson during the F41 timeframe
2024-12-11 19:01:15 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !endmeeting