2025-02-25 15:01:01 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> !startmeeting fedora_bootc_initiative
2025-02-25 15:01:04 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2025-02-25 15:01:01 UTC
2025-02-25 15:01:04 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'fedora_bootc_initiative'
2025-02-25 15:01:17 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> !topic roll call
2025-02-25 15:01:32 <@hricky:fedora.im> !hi
2025-02-25 15:01:37 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Hristo Marinov (hricky) - he / him / his
2025-02-25 15:01:50 <@walters:fedora.im> !hi
2025-02-25 15:01:52 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Colin Walters (walters)
2025-02-25 15:01:55 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !hi
2025-02-25 15:01:57 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Dusty Mabe (dustymabe) - he / him / his
2025-02-25 15:02:04 <@jlebon:fedora.im> !hi
2025-02-25 15:02:04 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> !hi jasonbrooks
2025-02-25 15:02:05 <@rsturla:fedora.im> !hi
2025-02-25 15:02:05 <@zodbot:fedora.im> None (jlebon)
2025-02-25 15:02:06 <@zodbot:fedora.im> None (rsturla)
2025-02-25 15:02:06 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Jason Brooks (jasonbrooks) - he / him / his
2025-02-25 15:02:36 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> How's it going, folks? It looked like last week was a video meeting?
2025-02-25 15:03:37 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> 👋
2025-02-25 15:03:57 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Yep. Last week was video. jmarrero ran it 
2025-02-25 15:04:49 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> Were there any action items to follow up on from that meeting?
2025-02-25 15:05:14 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> !topic Action items from last meeting
2025-02-25 15:05:15 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> I think we took notes in the etherpad.. do you have a link to that handy? 
2025-02-25 15:05:28 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/bootc-initiative-meetings
2025-02-25 15:06:16 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> I think there were no action items. From the FCOS side we were trying to figure out if we needed to re-adjust our "inherit" strategy for F42 because of the major rework going on to the base images definitions 
2025-02-25 15:06:49 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> ultimately we ended up deciding for F42, when the major rework lands, we'll just copy out the definitions. For f43 we'll incorporate the reworked definitions upstream
2025-02-25 15:06:52 <@walters:fedora.im> I think the status quo is it's not strictly needed to change right now, but it probably should at some point soon
2025-02-25 15:07:16 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> Regarding a past action item of mine, I did file an issue to discuss the future of this initiative, once it's run its initial course: https://gitlab.com/fedora/bootc/tracker/-/issues/62
2025-02-25 15:07:38 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> Hope to get some discussion on the issue
2025-02-25 15:07:59 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> Does anyone have a topic to discuss today?
2025-02-25 15:08:39 <@walters:fedora.im> I'd like to at least continue the base image bits
2025-02-25 15:08:50 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Jason Brooks: yes. 
2025-02-25 15:09:18 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Jonathan Lebon: did you want to continue base image rework discussion or should we move to the need/wishlist items for bootc from the coreos side? 
2025-02-25 15:09:47 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> of course, interested if any other members here have topics too (so FCOS doesn't hog the discussion) 
2025-02-25 15:10:46 <@walters:fedora.im> Note that the new MR in https://gitlab.com/fedora/bootc/base-images/-/merge_requests/98/ does *not* totally rework yet how we build the image, and I think tier-x will keep working...actually let me test that now
2025-02-25 15:11:04 <@walters:fedora.im> yeah updated the bootc submodule to that MR and fcos is still building
2025-02-25 15:11:10 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> !topic Base Image Discussion
2025-02-25 15:12:29 <@walters:fedora.im> so I think my proposal for f42 is fcos just stays as is (although we may now go ahead and rename tier-x as the naming never made sense  and is now fully obsolete)
2025-02-25 15:12:54 <@jlebon:fedora.im> dustymabe: good either way from my side. nothing in particular to add to upstream discussions
2025-02-25 15:12:59 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> i.e. after that PR merges? 
2025-02-25 15:12:59 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> > now fully obsolete
2025-02-25 15:12:59 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> 
2025-02-25 15:13:10 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> oh I guess it merged already
2025-02-25 15:13:24 <@jlebon:fedora.im> Colin Walters: i think we're ready to pull in the manifests whenever, so we don't have to make concessions to keep tier-x working it makes things too messy
2025-02-25 15:13:30 <@jlebon:fedora.im> Colin Walters: i think we're ready to pull in the manifests whenever, so we don't have to make concessions to keep tier-x working if it makes things too messy
2025-02-25 15:13:32 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> oh I guess it merged already - a few minutes ago
2025-02-25 15:13:56 <@walters:fedora.im> tier-x is still there
2025-02-25 15:14:22 <@walters:fedora.im> I don't think it's a problem to keep it until we implement https://github.com/coreos/fedora-coreos-tracker/issues/1861 and then we can drop it
2025-02-25 15:15:04 <@jlebon:fedora.im> what is important to me as part of this rework is not the tier-x naming/separate target, but its package list. which i think is still there, just named differently
2025-02-25 15:15:17 <@walters:fedora.im> it's still there and named the same
2025-02-25 15:15:27 <@jlebon:fedora.im> i mean longer term
2025-02-25 15:15:37 <@walters:fedora.im> ok yeah
2025-02-25 15:16:30 <@walters:fedora.im> what I'm a bit more interested is to get some feedback soon about bootc-base-imagectl from interested users and if it meets their needs
2025-02-25 15:17:32 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> TL;DR - what's the tool do? 
2025-02-25 15:17:41 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> TL;DR - what does the tool do? 
2025-02-25 15:18:03 <@walters:fedora.im> well, it's in the docs but it basically lets you rebuild the base image from the base image
2025-02-25 15:18:20 <@walters:fedora.im> (or, build a really minimal image)
2025-02-25 15:18:26 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> is this the `build-from-self` thing ?
2025-02-25 15:18:42 <@walters:fedora.im> yeah same idea different name
2025-02-25 15:19:26 <@walters:fedora.im> ok, we can probably move on
2025-02-25 15:19:51 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> Where can we ask users to look at / try bootc-base-imagectl to give their feedbac?
2025-02-25 15:20:16 <@walters:fedora.im> One problematic thing here is https://gitlab.com/fedora/bootc/base-images/-/merge_requests/98#note_2365931396
2025-02-25 15:21:31 <@walters:fedora.im> but it will land in c10s soon; anyways I'll followup to that q
2025-02-25 15:22:23 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> On where to point ppl?
2025-02-25 15:22:44 <@walters:fedora.im> right
2025-02-25 15:22:50 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> OK, do we want to talk about wish list items for bootc from fcos today, or do that next time?
2025-02-25 15:23:00 <@jlebon:fedora.im> i think the idea clicks when you're working with the canonical base image. but what'd be cool is if this command worked for a layered image onto which you might want to layer more things, but that's tricky to do.
2025-02-25 15:23:00 <@jlebon:fedora.im> i.e. the invariant is "this image will rebuild itself", not "this image will rebuild the original base image on which this whole chain of derivations is based"
2025-02-25 15:23:00 <@jlebon:fedora.im> it's a cool idea.
2025-02-25 15:23:22 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Jason Brooks: I'd like to today if we can.. maybe we won't get through all of it 
2025-02-25 15:24:12 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> !topic Wish List Items for bootc from FCOS
2025-02-25 15:25:43 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Jonathan Lebon: want to intro this one? or should I? 
2025-02-25 15:25:59 <@walters:fedora.im> is there a corresponding issue?
2025-02-25 15:26:01 <@jlebon:fedora.im> i admire your optimism of starting that convo with 4 minutes left :)
2025-02-25 15:26:13 <@jlebon:fedora.im> dustymabe: take it!
2025-02-25 15:27:12 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> From the FCOS side there are things we need in order to move over to bootc and then some things we want (which would also make moving over to bootc much more compelling because ostree/rpm-ostree wouldn't have those features)
2025-02-25 15:27:22 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Most of these items are sourced from https://github.com/coreos/fedora-coreos-tracker/issues/1726 
2025-02-25 15:27:47 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> the first one (being a `Need`) is: local layering: https://gitlab.com/fedora/bootc/tracker/-/issues/4
2025-02-25 15:28:29 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> since a good chunk of our userbase uses this feature today we can't really move until this story is more complete 
2025-02-25 15:28:31 <@walters:fedora.im> can I edit the "Rebasing on Fedora Bootc container images" section to point to https://github.com/coreos/fedora-coreos-tracker/issues/1861  ?
2025-02-25 15:28:58 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Colin Walters: maybe just make a comment in the issue and we'll update it? we meet regularly to discuss the path forward 
2025-02-25 15:29:16 <@walters:fedora.im> what about the path of having people using fcos with local layering switch to using bootc w/containerfile?
2025-02-25 15:29:32 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> on this topic, do we know if any targeted work is being done today? 
2025-02-25 15:30:12 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Colin Walters: where would that "glue" exist? 
2025-02-25 15:30:28 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> I think the desire here is for it to be a feature of bootc/dnf and not something bolted on
2025-02-25 15:31:16 <@walters:fedora.im> what i'm saying is they basically stop using fcos 
2025-02-25 15:31:29 <@jlebon:fedora.im> dustymabe: i think the dnf team is working in the vicinity but not yet directly on it. there is now a dnf-bootc plugin but only for dnf4 for now IIUC
2025-02-25 15:31:51 <@walters:fedora.im> I think of course there's a divide here where *some* of the people who were customizing fcos in this way are likely to be way, way happier owning custom container builds. But the "single/standalone node" case remains a sticking point.
2025-02-25 15:32:31 <@walters:fedora.im> i guess we have no telemetry on this unfortunately...
2025-02-25 15:33:34 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> 
2025-02-25 15:33:34 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> People who want to use bootc, build their own thing, and control their updates themselves will do so I believe.
2025-02-25 15:33:34 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> I still think FCOS offers compelling value for people who just want to tweak CoreOS slightly, but still follow our streams
2025-02-25 15:33:53 <@walters:fedora.im> (to elaborate it's basically "take your ignition config and put the 90% of it that's writing files in the container build, take your 10% that's partitioning and translate to kickstart/blueprint, and now you're on bootc)
2025-02-25 15:35:58 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> 
2025-02-25 15:35:58 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Do you think local layering will ever be considered? 
2025-02-25 15:35:58 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> 
2025-02-25 15:35:58 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> I think "don't use CoreOS, use bootc directly" isn't the outcome I was hoping for. I still think there's a lot of value in what we're doing with CoreOS. 
2025-02-25 15:35:58 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> It certainly doesn't make me want to be involved.
2025-02-25 15:38:06 <@walters:fedora.im> well yes, i mean i put many many months of my life into rpm-ostree supporting this for I think good reasons, and to be clear we're not going to break rpm-ostree in the forseeable future, and yes reimplementing this local build flow in a bootc world still makes a lot of sense
2025-02-25 15:39:06 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> I think all we're trying to voice here is that we think the feature is very important for our userbase and we also think our userbase finds value in the things that CoreOS is doing differently than bootc
2025-02-25 15:39:17 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> I think all we're trying to voice here is that we think the feature is very important for our userbase and we also think our userbase finds value in the things that CoreOS is doing differently than bootc (i.e. streams, etc)
2025-02-25 15:39:49 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> we may even be willing to help jump in and implement those features, but we're trying to understand where they stand today and if there are aligned parties that we can work with to achieve those goals
2025-02-25 15:40:49 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> so.. who should we talk to on that front ^^ 
2025-02-25 15:41:25 <@jlebon:fedora.im> we've discussed this with the dnf team in the past
2025-02-25 15:41:56 <@jlebon:fedora.im> in the next video meeting maybe we could invite them again to discuss it
2025-02-25 15:42:23 <@jlebon:fedora.im> they just wrapped up "transient package installs", which is related
2025-02-25 15:42:53 <@jlebon:fedora.im> e.g. some FCOS users doing layering today might be fine with transiently overlaying it on boot each time
2025-02-25 15:43:10 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> > and to be clear we're not going to break rpm-ostree in the forseeable future
2025-02-25 15:43:10 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> 
2025-02-25 15:43:10 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> on this front - yep, I think we know that, which is good, but we'd like to move over to the new stuff sooner so we can be more a part of that community (here) :) 
2025-02-25 15:44:01 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> 
2025-02-25 15:44:01 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> > e.g. some FCOS users doing layering today might be fine with transiently overlaying it on boot each time
2025-02-25 15:44:01 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> that seems, unideal. either wasting bandwidth OR CPU/startup time 
2025-02-25 15:44:26 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> Would it not make sense to have a process where instead of local layering there's locally built derived images -- a new upgrade from fcos comes along, and your system builds a derived image to upgrade to, locally?
2025-02-25 15:44:58 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Jason Brooks: the implementation is up to the implementers.. i'm interested in the user story. Can be implemented different ways 
2025-02-25 15:46:27 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> so maybe an action item then to discuss this with the DNF team? 
2025-02-25 15:46:33 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> when is the next video meeting? 
2025-02-25 15:47:40 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> We can do it next week if we'd like, there's no strict schedule
2025-02-25 15:48:21 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Anyone opposed to a video meeting next week? 
2025-02-25 15:49:32 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> OK, cool, and let's ping the dnf folks to make sure they can come
2025-02-25 15:49:46 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Jason Brooks: are you good to do that ^^ ? 
2025-02-25 15:49:56 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> Yeah, I'll do it
2025-02-25 15:50:10 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> !action jbrooks to ping dnf folks for video mtg next week
2025-02-25 15:50:40 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Thanks! 
2025-02-25 15:51:03 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> I think for our later wish list items we can push those off to next meeting (after the dnf discussion) if time allows.
2025-02-25 15:51:33 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> Ok, any other small items to raise before we close out?
2025-02-25 15:53:30 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> all right, I'm closing it, thanks everyone!
2025-02-25 15:53:33 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> !endmeeting