2025-04-08 15:00:32 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> !startmeeting fedora_bootc_initiative
2025-04-08 15:00:35 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2025-04-08 15:00:32 UTC
2025-04-08 15:00:35 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'fedora_bootc_initiative'
2025-04-08 15:01:09 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> !topic roll call
2025-04-08 15:01:15 <@rsturla:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-08 15:01:16 <@zodbot:fedora.im> None (rsturla)
2025-04-08 15:01:45 <@hricky:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-08 15:01:46 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Hristo Marinov (hricky) - he / him / his
2025-04-08 15:01:53 <@walters:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-08 15:01:54 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Colin Walters (walters)
2025-04-08 15:02:09 <@miabbott:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-08 15:02:10 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Micah Abbott (miabbott)
2025-04-08 15:02:24 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> meetbot is laggy...
2025-04-08 15:02:47 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !hi
2025-04-08 15:02:50 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Dusty Mabe (dustymabe) - he / him / his
2025-04-08 15:03:33 <@jeckersb:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-08 15:03:34 <@zodbot:fedora.im> John Eckersberg (jeckersb)
2025-04-08 15:04:53 <@jmarrero:matrix.org> !hi
2025-04-08 15:05:05 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Joseph Marrero (jmarrero)
2025-04-08 15:05:05 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> All right, Robert Sturla would like to talk about what's involved in using bootc in other distros, and Colin Walters said we might talk about it at a high level. 
2025-04-08 15:05:27 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> Sean Thrailkill: Wants to talk about composefs status
2025-04-08 15:05:32 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> Other topics for today?
2025-04-08 15:05:44 <@snthrailkill:matrix.org> !hi
2025-04-08 15:05:47 <@zodbot:fedora.im> No Fedora Accounts users have the @snthrailkill:matrix.org Matrix Account defined
2025-04-08 15:07:06 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> !topic what's involved in using bootc in other distros
2025-04-08 15:07:44 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> Robert Sturla: , would you summarize what you're looking to learn?
2025-04-08 15:07:58 <@walters:fedora.im> I'll comment in some of these but lately my highest level though here is to enable systemd-boot, which sidesteps bootupd entirely
2025-04-08 15:08:40 <@walters:fedora.im> https://github.com/ostreedev/ostree/pull/3359 is in progress...slowly but I am trying to help
2025-04-08 15:09:09 <@rsturla:fedora.im> 
2025-04-08 15:09:09 <@rsturla:fedora.im> So there's already an issue in bootupd for removing a dependency on RPM - https://github.com/coreos/bootupd/issues/468
2025-04-08 15:09:09 <@rsturla:fedora.im> There have been quite a few conversations across bootc and bootupd issues where people are trying to get a bootc machine running on other distros (mainly Arch), so I would like it if we could get some decisions or additional guidance on how this should be implemented before community members go off down the wrong direction
2025-04-08 15:11:11 <@rsturla:fedora.im> For example, specifically for the bootupd issue above, Colin mentioned each distro shipping their own scripts which can extract version information from the kernels so we don't need to hard-code everything within bootupd itself
2025-04-08 15:11:49 <@rsturla:fedora.im> Oh, integrating with systemd-boot would solve a lot of the issues people have been facing!
2025-04-08 15:12:31 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> as long as UEFI is the only target, yes
2025-04-08 15:12:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2025-04-08 15:12:43 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2025-04-08 15:13:15 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and that you're working with x86, other arches get "special"
2025-04-08 15:13:59 <@rsturla:fedora.im> I guess my questions mainly revolve around requirements in bootupd, but if there's going to be an option to bypass this entirely, I'm more than happy with that.
2025-04-08 15:14:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> even with sd-boot, bootupd is still relevant because the UEFI environment is not necessarily "real" and offered by hardware, those pieces still need to be handled
2025-04-08 15:14:54 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Does that mean bootupd wouldn't exist and systemd-boot would take care of everything in the long term future? 
2025-04-08 15:15:45 <@walters:fedora.im> I don't think we can drop grub
2025-04-08 15:15:50 <@walters:fedora.im> The larger "we" here
2025-04-08 15:16:03 <@walters:fedora.im> As Neil said, there's BIOS to consider, not to mention upgrade scenarios
2025-04-08 15:16:28 <@walters:fedora.im> Also https://github.com/coreos/bootupd/issues/766 touches on the fact that there's a whole lot of other non-UEFI special things
2025-04-08 15:16:31 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and at least generally speaking as a maintainer of a number of Fedora deliverables, I don't have a compelling reason to use sd-boot when I need to use grub for everything else anyway
2025-04-08 15:17:22 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I think we previously discussed the situation with Fedora ARM being uniquely terrible for bootloader updates
2025-04-08 15:17:52 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I want us to leverage bootupd to make the experience for Fedora ARM the same as Fedora Asahi Remix... that is, completely transparent and managed properly
2025-04-08 15:18:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I also expect this problem coming in with Fedora RISC-V, which inherits nearly the entirety of the same limitations Fedora ARM has
2025-04-08 15:20:13 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> So moving to sd-boot wouldn’t really enable us to drop anything? 
2025-04-08 15:20:22 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> no, not really
2025-04-08 15:20:27 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> But I guess would make supporting other distros easier? 
2025-04-08 15:20:30 <@walters:fedora.im> So...it's hard for me to promise anything in this space but I will try to continue to at least comment on issues like this and I can probably get some time to mentor in a dedicated video call if someone was working on it
2025-04-08 15:20:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> specialized builds and derivatives might want to use it
2025-04-08 15:21:09 <@walters:fedora.im> dustymabe: Yes, for UEFI it all just works and is well designed and already knows how to update itself and report its status etc
2025-04-08 15:21:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> You should reach out to Dan Čermák and discuss it with him, he was interested in bringing it to openSUSE and I think that would help a lot in genericizing the stack for broader adoption.
2025-04-08 15:21:37 <@walters:fedora.im> the rpm dependency in bootupd is a hacky workaround for the grub binaries not being introspectable generically in this way
2025-04-08 15:21:59 <@walters:fedora.im> So far no response in https://github.com/openSUSE/perl-bootloader/issues/186 ...
2025-04-08 15:22:15 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> he's more active in matrix than github :)
2025-04-08 15:22:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and he's not the perl-Bootloader maintainer either
2025-04-08 15:24:23 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Conan Kudo: maybe an email intro would be worthwhile? 
2025-04-08 15:24:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> perhaps, I can do that if you want
2025-04-08 15:25:02 <@walters:fedora.im> Anyways overall I promise to go through and respond to bootupd discussions a bit more frequently and hopefully enable anyone who wants to work on this
2025-04-08 15:25:09 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we're interested in it from a kiwi-upstream perspective because we'd love a standard interface for bootloader stuff
2025-04-08 15:25:22 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> everyone is a little weird and abstracting that way would be awesome :)
2025-04-08 15:25:31 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> everyone is a little weird and abstracting that away would be awesome :)
2025-04-08 15:25:42 <@siosm:matrix.org> !hi
2025-04-08 15:25:44 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Timothée Ravier (siosm) - he / him / his
2025-04-08 15:26:15 <@siosm:matrix.org> The switch to systemd-boot is interesting for Confidential Computing & UKI support. The simpler update is a side benefit
2025-04-08 15:26:44 <@rsturla:fedora.im> I saw your reply in bootupd, and even just the link to the bootc issue helps understand the implementation a little more, even if said implementation is very simple.  
2025-04-08 15:26:44 <@rsturla:fedora.im> Makes it easier for myself and other contributors to feel more confident with the route needed to go down.
2025-04-08 15:26:52 <@rsturla:fedora.im> Makes it easier for myself and other contributors to feel more confident with the route needed to go down.
2025-04-08 15:26:52 <@rsturla:fedora.im> I saw your reply in the bootupd issue, and even just the link to the bootc issue helps understand the implementation a little more, even if said implementation is very simple.  
2025-04-08 15:28:41 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> OK, this has been a long and winding topic 🙂 Shall we move on to a bit of composefs status?
2025-04-08 15:29:26 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> !topic composefs integration status
2025-04-08 15:30:15 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> I saw a couple of replies in the bootc room about Sean Thrailkill 's query, is there more to discuss here?
2025-04-08 15:30:32 <@walters:fedora.im> I can say that for some of the people at Red Hat working on bootc this area is likely to be high priority and I'm personally excited
2025-04-08 15:30:41 <@snthrailkill:matrix.org> I think I have enough context between the issues Collin linked
2025-04-08 15:30:45 <@snthrailkill:matrix.org> Let me go through that first 
2025-04-08 15:30:49 <@snthrailkill:matrix.org> I'll follow up in channel
2025-04-08 15:31:38 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> OK, any open floor topics?
2025-04-08 15:31:47 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> !topic open floor
2025-04-08 15:32:16 <@walters:fedora.im> The rework of the Fedora base image builds is ongoing, and there's testing images being pushed https://gitlab.com/fedora/bootc/base-images/-/merge_requests/156#note_2428860164
2025-04-08 15:32:50 <@walters:fedora.im> Among other things the [from scratch](https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/bootc/building-custom-base/) image flow works in those
2025-04-08 15:33:03 <@walters:fedora.im> But we'll write this up more widely once it's farther along
2025-04-08 15:35:17 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> Awesome, I look forward to it.
2025-04-08 15:35:43 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> Oh, I got a lightning talk about bootc accepted to he upcoming KCD SF Bay Area
2025-04-08 15:36:02 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Nice work Jason Brooks 
2025-04-08 15:36:07 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> are you going to be at Flock this year? 
2025-04-08 15:36:18 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> https://community.cncf.io/events/details/cncf-kcd-sf-bay-area-presents-kcd-san-francisco-bay-area/cohost-kcd-sf-bay-area
2025-04-08 15:36:53 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> I am not currently planning on attending Flock, but that may change. 
2025-04-08 15:37:21 <@walters:fedora.im> I am going to devconf.cz, which is right after Flock...not yet sure if I'm doing both
2025-04-08 15:37:31 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> All right, let's adjourn this one, let's talk in the bootc room about topics for next week
2025-04-08 15:38:24 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> I got accepted to Flock so I'll be going to that one if I get travel approved 
2025-04-08 15:38:33 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Was definitely hoping to catch up with you Colin Walters 
2025-04-08 15:38:34 <@snthrailkill:matrix.org> Same
2025-04-08 15:38:48 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Thanks for running the meeting Jason Brooks 
2025-04-08 15:39:10 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> !endmeeting