<@james:fedora.im>
16:00:38
!startmeeting fpc
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
16:00:39
Meeting started at 2025-04-10 16:00:38 UTC
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
16:00:39
The Meeting name is 'fpc'
<@james:fedora.im>
16:00:41
!topic Roll Call
<@james:fedora.im>
16:00:45
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:00:47
James Antill (james)
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:00:49
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:00:49
Carl George (carlwgeorge) - he / him / his
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
16:00:55
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:00:56
Fabio Valentini (decathorpe) - he / him / his
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:05:22
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:05:24
Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
<@james:fedora.im>
16:05:42
WE have enough for golf, now ;)
<@james:fedora.im>
16:05:49
We have enough for golf, now ;)
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:06:29
this is why people should take up squash - you can play solo ;)
<@james:fedora.im>
16:07:13
And die from a heart attack ;)
<@james:fedora.im>
16:07:30
!topic FPC PR#1448 https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1448
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:07:41
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:07:43
Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:07:51
Framework 12 preorder day :)
<@james:fedora.im>
16:07:56
Cool, we have 5
<@james:fedora.im>
16:08:40
I think we can merge 1448 now? Carl George: Do I understand correctly that this is good for epel 9 too?
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:09:18
yeah miro set me straight on that
<@james:fedora.im>
16:09:32
Conan Kudo: New laptop? What bit are you most excited about?
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:09:38
we'll just add a footnote on the epel side about the epel8 caveat
<@james:fedora.im>
16:09:44
Sounds good.
<@james:fedora.im>
16:09:57
Unless anyone objects I'll merge it in a minute
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:11:10
interestingly this is just for examples, the main patch guidelines don't explain the differences
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:11:20
affordable and durable, while having a pen input screen for notes
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:11:30
makes for a good travel and note-taking laptop
<@james:fedora.im>
16:11:47
!topic FPC PR#1451 https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1451
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:11:51
yeah it's appealing, i just already think the fw13 is too small
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:12:00
physically durable. hope the battery issue is actually resolved in later models :P
<@james:fedora.im>
16:12:11
Conan Kudo: Cool, hopefully will see you live with it somewhere in the US and you can show it off.
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:12:13
i'd like a 14 or 15 inch version with that same durability and tablet mode
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:12:28
the 13 is perfect for me but I have small hands. I won't touch the 12 because tablet mode (I'm different I guess) and also Intel only
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:12:56
I want it to be nice to use on planes too
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:13:19
otherwise yeah I'd prefer a larger laptop
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:13:28
i avoid serious work on planes and just watch movies on my 10in tablet
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:13:55
same. soon I won't even be able to use plane wifi as they all go starlink
<@james:fedora.im>
16:13:56
I used to work on trains/planes ... my RSI does not thank me for it.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:14:07
I only get paid when I do work, so... 😅
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:14:40
yeah. I prefer audiobooks when on trains
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:15:36
on short jumps I just don't bother, but 10+ hour flights are boring
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:15:45
movies :)
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:15:49
it's hard to even entertain myself for that long and I get twitchy :P
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:16:04
my last international flight I did work on my _phone_
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:16:05
I don't even bother watching new movies anymore, I just watch one or two old favorites then try to nap the rest of the time
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:16:30
but yea this is why between immigration getting weirder and work getting stingier it is getting harder to persuade me to fly to Europe
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:16:52
but yeah... meeting? or do we not have other topics
<@james:fedora.im>
16:17:27
Yeh, I'm trying very hard not to go through US immigration unless I really have to for at least the next 4 years.
<@james:fedora.im>
16:17:52
I did post one ... https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1451
<@james:fedora.im>
16:18:06
Seems like a simple merge, but wanted to make sure ;)
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:18:19
i'm with neal on this one
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:18:45
yeah I don't really want to document it when it doesn't work
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:19:11
yeah if it does not work without authentication then hard no
<@james:fedora.im>
16:19:20
Ahh, saw the bit about it working ... but that's just git.
<@james:fedora.im>
16:19:24
I'll close then.
<@james:fedora.im>
16:19:46
!topic FPC#1449 https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1449
<@james:fedora.im>
16:20:52
I guess someone should comment: A PR would be nice ;)
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
16:21:04
this change feels a bit like whiplash
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:21:54
pagure stopped loading for me :(
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:21:55
urgh
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:21:59
it was fine just 2 mins ago
<@james:fedora.im>
16:22:07
Yeh, I do remember a time when I used %define all the time and then mysteriously the recommendation was to never use it.
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:22:14
interesting, this is the first i've heard that the global advice wasn't true
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
16:22:31
yeah from "do A unless you really need B" to "do B unless you really need A"
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
16:22:57
I mean it's fine to document this but there are loads of places that would need adaptations
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
16:23:12
spec file templates, other documentation, fedora-review, etc.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:23:38
the key change that flips the advice is that defines are spec global now too
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:23:42
they used to be section local
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:23:44
they aren't anymore
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:23:59
and lazy evaluation is generally better for macros anyway
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
16:24:01
since which rpm version?
<@james:fedora.im>
16:24:54
Is the top of the file some kind of special section? Because I was pretty sure I could put a %define there and use it everywhere from the very beginning.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:24:56
4.14 I think?
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:25:04
maybe even earlier
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:25:22
so that hasn't changed
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
16:25:22
ok, so there should at least be no problem with older branches of Fedora or EPEL
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:25:38
spec files are processed in order, so if you reference something that hasn't been defined yet, it's not going to work :)
<@james:fedora.im>
16:25:52
👀 RPM 4.14.0 released! (Oct 12 2017)
<@james:fedora.im>
16:26:59
Anyway ... unless someone else wants to comment and/or do the patch, I'll comment saying that we generally agree it's fine and asking for a PR.
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:27:02
i wouldn't mind getting explicit blessing from panu on the proposed wording to make sure it's accurate
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:27:20
i would prefer getting explicit blessing from panu on the proposed wording to make sure it's accurate
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:27:38
I actually can't remember a version of rpm I've used (going even back to RHEL 7) that didn't work this way
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:27:47
maybe it was before RHEL 7 where define was weirder
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:28:05
but that's more than 10 years ago and too ancient for me to care
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:28:24
this scoping stuff is not computing in my brain right now, i need time to think about it to wrap my head around it. but i trust panu on it.
<@james:fedora.im>
16:28:46
As I said, I would bet $5 that a %define at the top of the file could be used anywhere in RHEL 3
<@james:fedora.im>
16:29:03
So it's all a bit confusing.
<@james:fedora.im>
16:29:18
As Carl George said, it'd be nice to get bless of Panu on any new wording.
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:29:20
yeah I also find the scoping confusing, and we should probably ask someone like Panu first before making any change
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:29:53
like, I agree we should probably recommend using %global, but... would be nice to have the correct reasoning when doing so or we just confuse more people down the road
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:31:09
fyi, if they put a magic word in the PR commit message, it will mark this issue as closed https://docs.pagure.org/pagure/usage/magic_words.html
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:31:34
this is common on github but i rarely see it used on pagure
<@james:fedora.im>
16:33:25
Yeh. Did you want to do the comment Carl?
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:34:05
sure i can, are we ok leaving it open until the PR closes it, or did you feel strongly about closing it and leaving further discussion to the PR comments?
<@james:fedora.im>
16:34:57
Oh, no I wasn't going to close it ... just let them know that we are fine with it, just want someone to write the words etc.
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:35:19
ok cool
<@james:fedora.im>
16:35:24
!topic FPC#1452 https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1452
<@james:fedora.im>
16:35:54
Are we actually involved in this?
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:37:26
isn't that a fesco thing?
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:37:47
i can see the argument that since it was split out from another package it can be allowed. iirc the rule is "no new packages can depend on deprecated packages", but this isn't truly a new package.
<@james:fedora.im>
16:37:48
I'm not sure who does it ... but I was pretty sure it wasn't us ;)
<@james:fedora.im>
16:39:05
Yeh, if it's a package split and we can say it's fine ... then I'm fine saying that. But I don't want to start a dumpster fire by accident.
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:39:09
the guidelines just say fesco approves changes for marking packages as deprecated, not who can approve exceptions to it
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:39:32
logically that would also be fesco i think, but i don't want to assume
<@james:fedora.im>
16:40:05
¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
<@james:fedora.im>
16:40:32
I'll tell them to go speak to fesco
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:40:51
yeah deferring to fesco seems safe, and fesco can always kick it back to us if they want
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:41:01
"delegation"
<@james:fedora.im>
16:41:25
!topic Open Floor
<@james:fedora.im>
16:41:31
Anyone have anything else?
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
16:42:53
I thought package splits are explicitly exempted from "nothing new can depend on deprecated stuff"?
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:43:22
that makes sense as a rule, but i don't see it on the deprecations page
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
16:43:37
i would +1 a pr that adds it
<@james:fedora.im>
16:44:51
yeh, I see no reason not to.
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
16:44:54
hrm
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
16:45:15
maybe I'm mixing this up with the "nothing new can use the CC0-1.0 license for code" :)
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
16:45:33
which *is* explicitly documented to be fine for package splits and compat packages etc.
<@james:fedora.im>
16:47:02
Seems like we could have a generic rule that package splits don't count as new packages.
<@salimma:fedora.im>
16:51:20
as far as deprecation they should not count, I agree
<@james:fedora.im>
16:51:28
Baited in the ticket ;)
<@james:fedora.im>
16:52:45
Unless anyone has anything else I'll end the meeting in a couple of minutes.
<@james:fedora.im>
16:55:43
!endmeeting