2025-04-17 16:00:31 <@james:fedora.im> !startmeeting fpc

2025-04-17 16:00:34 <@james:fedora.im> !topic Roll Call
2025-04-17 16:00:35 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2025-04-17 16:00:31 UTC
2025-04-17 16:00:35 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'fpc'
2025-04-17 16:01:09 <@james:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-17 16:01:10 <@zodbot:fedora.im> James Antill (james)
2025-04-17 16:01:17 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-17 16:01:18 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Fabio Valentini (decathorpe) - he / him / his
2025-04-17 16:02:54 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-17 16:02:56 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Carl George (carlwgeorge) - he / him / his
2025-04-17 16:05:55 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> 🦗
2025-04-17 16:06:41 <@limb:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-17 16:06:44 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Gwyn Ciesla (limb) - she / her / hers
2025-04-17 16:08:24 <@salimma:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-17 16:08:27 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
2025-04-17 16:11:22 <@james:fedora.im> !topic FPC#1456 https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1456
2025-04-17 16:11:41 <@james:fedora.im> This seems like an easy one, although slightly annoying it's not a PR
2025-04-17 16:12:59 <@limb:fedora.im> Yeah. I'm good with it.
2025-04-17 16:13:00 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yeah hard to parse without a visual diff
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im>  unless strictly required.
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> ```diff
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> --- v1.txt	2025-04-17 18:13:40.207957029 +0200
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> +++ v2.txt	2025-04-17 18:14:07.586094088 +0200
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> @@ -1,9 +1,9 @@
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> -Desktop applications MUST NOT depend
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> -on other desktop applications
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> +Packages MUST NOT depend
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> +on desktop applications
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im>  In particular,
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> -packages that contain a visible .desktop file
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> -(a .desktop file that does not contain the line NoDisplay=true)
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> -SHOULD NOT have a Requires, Recommends, or Supplements
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> -on any other package containing a visible desktop file,
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> -directly or indirectly.
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> +packages SHOULD NOT have a Requires, Recommends, or Supplements
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> +on any package containing a visible desktop file
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> +(a .desktop file that does not contain the line NoDisplay=true),
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> +directly or indirectly,
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> +unless the dependency is strictly necessary.
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> ```
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> 
2025-04-17 16:14:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> does this work in Matrix? 
2025-04-17 16:15:00 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> oh, it does. nice
2025-04-17 16:15:02 <@limb:fedora.im> oooHOoOOOOOOhhh.
2025-04-17 16:16:58 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> ok so the only change seems to be
2025-04-17 16:16:58 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> 
2025-04-17 16:16:58 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> > packages <del>that contain .desktop files</del> SHOULD NOT depend on packages that contain .desktop files
2025-04-17 16:17:00 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> the diff highlighting works in the element flatpak, but not on element android
2025-04-17 16:17:16 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> oh of course the clients are different :D
2025-04-17 16:17:31 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> fwiw I think the change makes sense
2025-04-17 16:21:08 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> hmmm
2025-04-17 16:21:31 <@james:fedora.im> Fabio Valentini: Did you want to do a PR?
2025-04-17 16:21:41 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> in my gnome shell extension packages i have them recommend gnome-extensions-app, and it sounds like that wouldn't be allowed by this
2025-04-17 16:22:06 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> without that installed, there isn't a graphical method to enable the extension
2025-04-17 16:22:20 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I'd say that this is covered by "strictly required"
2025-04-17 16:22:28 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> because without it the package is useless 
2025-04-17 16:22:38 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> want? no. can? yes :)
2025-04-17 16:22:39 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> but it's not strictly required, because you can do it on the cli, hence the recommends
2025-04-17 16:23:31 <@james:fedora.im> I would put those under the same exception as plugins
2025-04-17 16:23:52 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> hum ... yeah that sounds like an edge case. and it's still a SHOULD NOT, not a MUST NOT guideline
2025-04-17 16:24:08 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> the text change doesn't mention plugins, it's in the issue but i fear that nuance will be lost over time
2025-04-17 16:25:00 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> honestly this text is confusing to me, since it's "MUST NOT depend" and "SHOULD NOT require/recommend/supplement", which seems contradictory
2025-04-17 16:25:22 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> right. so you volunteer to wordsmith something better?
2025-04-17 16:25:55 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> i can provide this feedback on the issue comments, or on pr comments if we just want to refine the language there
2025-04-17 16:26:07 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> or would just making it less strict than "strictly necessary" be enough?
2025-04-17 16:26:39 <@james:fedora.im> To be fair I'm not sure I agree with the hplip example either
2025-04-17 16:28:17 <@james:fedora.im> I can add a comment and ask them to think a bit more and submit a PR
2025-04-17 16:28:53 <@james:fedora.im> !topic FPC PR#1455 https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1455
2025-04-17 16:29:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2025-04-17 16:31:08 <@ngompa:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-17 16:34:07 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2025-04-17 16:34:07 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2025-04-17 16:34:35 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> oh, Matrix is back 👀
2025-04-17 16:35:33 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> (or is it?)
2025-04-17 16:36:03 <@james:fedora.im> I think so
2025-04-17 16:36:43 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> fwiw I agree with the hplip-gui thing, I was very surprised to see it suddenly getting installed on my system 
2025-04-17 16:36:55 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> almost Windows-esque 
2025-04-17 16:37:35 <@limb:fedora.im> What's next Adobe Type Manager?
2025-04-17 16:37:44 <@limb:fedora.im> What's next, Adobe Type Manager?
2025-04-17 16:37:59 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> Candy Crush?
2025-04-17 16:38:35 <@limb:fedora.im> ask.com toolbar for IE6
2025-04-17 16:38:37 <@james:fedora.im> Eh. I can see how a bunch of people who want minimalism might object (turn recommends off?) ... but if you have printer software and the GUI the printer GUI uses, it doesn't seem like a terrible idea off hand.
2025-04-17 16:39:38 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> sure, still doesn't make sense to install GUI software for *every kind of hardware out there* by default
2025-04-17 16:41:48 <@james:fedora.im> Also hplip-gui could still Supplements?
2025-04-17 16:42:14 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> that would be effectively the same 
2025-04-17 16:42:24 <@james:fedora.im> yeh, but allowed by policy
2025-04-17 16:42:55 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> Supplements is already in the SHOULD NOT list 
2025-04-17 16:43:13 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> arguably it's the wrong way round the way it's currently written
2025-04-17 16:44:02 <@james:fedora.im> Right. It's not a dep on a package with a desktop file ... so it's fine?
2025-04-17 16:44:43 <@james:fedora.im> I'll add another comment.
2025-04-17 16:44:45 <@james:fedora.im> !topic Open Floor
2025-04-17 16:45:14 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> Supplements are reverse dependencies, if hplip-gui Supplements hplip, that's equivalent to hplip Recommending hplip-gui, which is what we don't want 
2025-04-17 16:46:31 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> i feel like this messages i can see here are very out of order after the matrix hiccup
2025-04-17 16:46:50 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> possibly 😬
2025-04-17 16:46:55 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> anyway I have something for open floor
2025-04-17 16:47:00 <@salimma:fedora.im> is there a week without matrix hiccups now
2025-04-17 16:47:16 <@james:fedora.im> Not sure how many people we lost with matrix
2025-04-17 16:48:02 <@salimma:fedora.im> I just use my fedora.im account for all Fedora stuff now, less risk of dealing with federation issues
2025-04-17 16:48:05 <@james:fedora.im> Fabio Valentini: Just go for it, we might be slow/OOO for the rest of the meeting anyway
2025-04-17 16:48:12 <@salimma:fedora.im> but double-booked in meetings all morning today
2025-04-17 16:48:20 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> 
2025-04-17 16:48:20 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> the aspell / deprecated package exemption got escalated to fesco, where I suggested making it explicit that some kinds of "new" packages (that aren't ***actually*** new) should be exempted from rules that only apply to *new* packages:
2025-04-17 16:48:20 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3391#comment-965897
2025-04-17 16:49:03 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> these kinds of things are mentioned all over the place but I don't think in any coherent list anywhere 
2025-04-17 16:49:37 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> or sometimes it's almost *implied* but not explicit
2025-04-17 16:49:50 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, that looks good.
2025-04-17 16:50:58 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> still unsure *where* this should be documented. I thought the "Package Review Guidelines" page would make sense, but maybe not.
2025-04-17 16:52:07 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/ReviewGuidelines/
2025-04-17 16:52:07 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> though that page would be in need of a refresh in general
2025-04-17 16:52:27 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, anywhere generic seems fine. Not sure if we want to backreference it from everywhere that talks about new packages?
2025-04-17 16:53:39 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> maybe? but more links -> more possibilities for link rot :)
2025-04-17 16:54:52 <@james:fedora.im> true. finding all of them is the first problem. finding future ones is the second (and bigger) problem ;)
2025-04-17 16:55:31 <@james:fedora.im> Anyway ... unless anyone has anything else, I'll close the meeting and give matrix a bit of a rest ;)
2025-04-17 16:56:15 <@james:fedora.im> !endmeeting