<@tdawson:fedora.im>
17:59:56
!startmeeting EPEL (2025-07-09)
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
17:59:57
Meeting started at 2025-07-09 17:59:56 UTC
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
17:59:58
The Meeting name is 'EPEL (2025-07-09)'
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:00:02
!topic aloha
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:00:02
!meetingname epel
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
18:00:03
The Meeting Name is now epel
<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>
18:00:09
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
18:00:09
Robby Callicotte (rcallicotte) - he / him / his
<@jonathanspw:fedora.im>
18:00:10
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
18:00:11
Jonathan Wright (jonathanspw)
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:00:47
Hi Robby Callicotte and Jonathan Wright
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:00:50
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
18:00:50
Carl George (carlwgeorge) - he / him / his
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:01:19
Hi Carl George
<@jonathanspw:fedora.im>
18:01:45
The issues with the matrix bridging on fedora.im may result in a low attendance today
<@jonathanspw:fedora.im>
18:01:57
*federation
<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>
18:02:08
ah
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:02:32
I thought we didn't do bridging anymore ... or am I thinking of something else.
<@salimma:fedora.im>
18:02:42
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
18:02:43
Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
<@jonathanspw:fedora.im>
18:02:47
I meant federation. Federation with other matrix homeservers.
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:02:47
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
18:02:48
Yaakov Selkowitz (yselkowitz)
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:03:01
Hi Michel Lind UTC-5 and yselkowitz
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:03:05
Ahh ... ok.
<@elguero:fedora.im>
18:03:09
!hiMeet Bot:
<@elguero:fedora.im>
18:03:33
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
18:03:34
None (elguero)
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:03:39
Hi Michael L. Young
<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>
18:03:54
Maybe IRC bridging?
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:04:37
Yep, that's what I was thinking of.
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
18:04:39
!hi
<@salimma:fedora.im>
18:04:59
I just have two Matrix accounts now. but no fedora.im on mobile since the only client that does SSO is the old Element (very slow and unreliable) and FluffyChat (works fine when it does but sometimes has weird issues)
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:05:07
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
18:05:08
Neil Hanlon (neil) - he / him / his
<@salimma:fedora.im>
18:05:13
so I figure if I'm not on my laptop / working I don't need to know what's going on :)
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:05:13
!link https://pagure.io/epel/issues?tags=meeting&status=Open
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:05:13
!topic EPEL Issues https://pagure.io/epel/issues
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:05:20
Hi Neil Hanlon
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:05:22
it's like netsplits, but worse!
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:05:44
We don't have any issues marked with meeting this week, or pull requests either.
<@jonathanspw:fedora.im>
18:05:48
Just tested from a different homeserver and federation is definitely still dead :( Users of homeservers other than fedora.im cannot see what we're saying.
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:06:02
So, moving on.
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:06:15
!topic Old Business
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:06:37
Interestingly, I can _see_ messages on my beeper.com account, but they're not coming over to fedora
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:06:49
Does anyone have any Old Business ? (queue Smooge)
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:07:55
Sometimes I wonder just how much older Smooge is than me ... but then I give up because I'm not sure I can count that high.
<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>
18:08:09
lol
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:08:19
watch out, that _could_ be elder abuse ;)
<@davide:cavalca.name>
18:08:26
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
18:08:30
Neil Hanlon (neil) - he / him / his
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
18:08:30
Davide Cavalca (dcavalca) - he / him / his
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:08:35
oh hi, other Neil
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:09:02
The only problem is that Smooge isn't here to see that .
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:09:21
Hi Davide Cavalca ... and other Neil.
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:09:51
But seriously, does anyone have any Old Business? Or should I move on, cuz I know we have at least one thing in Open Floor.
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:10:04
Nothing from me for old; do have an Open
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:10:24
!topic General Issues / Open Floor
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:10:53
I'm going to call on yselkowitz cuz that's what I was aluding to.
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:11:02
epel10 comps
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:11:06
yselkowitz: Go for it.
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:11:23
as discussed in #epel:fedoraproject.org earlier today
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:11:39
right now we're using a single comps file for all epel 10 branches
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:12:22
but for example, changes in KDE in epel 10.1 would entail some comps changes
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:12:28
but those changes are not in 10.0
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:13:08
Carl George said it was intentional to have only a single comps file for all 10 versions, but how are cases like this supposed to be handled then?
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:13:27
for comparison, each fedora branch has its own comps file
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:13:37
so that's my question
<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>
18:14:34
what types of changes are you refering to for KDE epel10.1?
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:14:36
as one data point, we have separate comps for epel9 and epel9-next, and they're currently identical
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:14:54
For epel8 and epel9, both of then have the -next comps file. So for them, we had a place to stage our stuff while it was on CentOS Stream, and then bring it over.
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:15:09
that's probably what we were observing when we set up epel10 to just have the single comps file
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:15:29
Yes, currently they are identical, but I think that's because things have calmed down in the epel9 space.
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:16:08
I looked at who currently uses the comps files, and outside of KDE, there are only a handful of other groups ... 5 or less.
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:16:39
at least one new plasma package, one dropped package, added ppc64le to qtwebengine-based apps
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:17:09
what happens in comps if you list a package and it's not available? does it fail the compose, or is it just skipped?
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:17:51
there are already several such cases, you get a warning when building the compose, not sure what it looks like on the user end
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:18:26
I *think* its not user visible at least as long as the package is not `mandatory`?
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:18:30
user end you get a warning and it keeps on going.
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:19:25
in that case, my opinion is a package being added or dropped here or there is not enough reason to have a separate comps file per minor version
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:20:05
I'm leaning towards that too.
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:20:16
so how do we handle removals in such a case then?
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:20:29
e.g. plasma-workspace-wayland (merged into plasma-workspace)
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:20:36
If we need to add some kde packages to the comps, then for RHEL 10.0 users, it's sorta like a preview of what is to come.
<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>
18:22:02
Troy Dawson added or missing packages in the comps could also cause issue with the alternative image builds since kiwi relies on the collection parameter for packages
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:22:49
Does that need to be removed? Because there is a provides for plasma-workspace-wayland ... so I thought that would just work.
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:23:50
iiuc comps doesn't recognize provides/obsoletes, package names are literal
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:25:23
or maybe not actually, that wasn't one of the warnings I saw in ELN comps
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:25:54
Robby Callicotte: You are correct, kiwi doesn't like them, but kiwi also has "ignore name" which I've been using for packages in comps but not in epel10.
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:27:20
There is also the matter of adding groups, but I believe adding groups causes less disruption than changing a group.
<@smooge:fedora.im>
18:27:32
sorry missed something I think
<@smooge:fedora.im>
18:28:12
was taking a nap
<@smooge:fedora.im>
18:28:25
nursie woke me up and said I needed to see some messages
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:29:22
no, no, she said you needed to take your medicine! I guess we gotta check those batteries too... ;)
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:29:34
I've been thinking about this since the earlier discussion, and I'm still leaning towards Carl's thought of keeping a single comps file. Or at the very most, having two.
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:30:45
i'll leave it up to troy's opinion since he is the one that has to deal with it the most. i think the only time i've ever had to touch those files is when creating them. that said, having it be per-minor adds to the work my team has to do every mass branching.
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:32:23
i'm not sure how just having two would work. bodhi's pungi config has to map to the filename somehow. currently it uses `comps-epel[[ release.version | int ]].xml`, and if we did create per-minor version ones it could be `comps-epel[[ release.version ]].xml` instead.
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:33:08
Ah ... ya, that would be close to as bad as having one for each one.
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:34:28
yselkowitz: Can you let me see what the changes you want to make are, and we can talk about if they can wait until November, or if not, what harm they would do if we put them in early.
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:35:16
!action yselkowitz to propose changes to update epel10 comps for review by tdawson
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:35:30
Thank you.
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:36:07
That was a fun discussion, but I'm going to move on since I know we have at least one other.
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:36:20
Neil Hanlon: or Neil Hanlon ... you said you had something?
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:37:27
hiya :) yes sorry
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:38:01
Not a problem, I meant to ping the other neil.
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:38:07
:D
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:40:16
So, in openstack-ansible we're using systemd-networkd, and have historically used a version from CentOS Hyperscale SIG, but recently that's been breaking CI due to the openssl changes coming in the fall for RHEL 9. In the past I've joined (e.g.) the NFV sig and carried some rebuilds against RHEL buildroots for OSA, but I don't think the hyperscale SIG wants that (to be fair, I didn't ask yet), and thought there might be some way we could bring systemd-networkd as an EPEL-only package. From my testing it should be reasonably straightforward to maintain, but I admit I'm probably not seeing everything.
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:41:18
isn't that already part of systemd-extras?
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:41:36
yup, confirmed https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=2200700
<@jonathanspw:fedora.im>
18:41:38
It looks to be, yes.
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:41:47
welp, ignore that, then :)
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:42:12
If it means less work, I'm good at ignoring. :)
<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>
18:42:26
neat, timesyncd is in there too
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:42:45
TIL about this package, and that's OK with me :)
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:42:54
relevant xkcd https://xkcd.com/1053/
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:43:55
thanks folks!
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:44:00
i've got a small open floor thing
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:44:10
Well ... then does ... go for it Carl George
<@salimma:fedora.im>
18:45:32
this is resolved via systemd-extras I guess, but FYI Hyperscale explicitly targets Stream so... if it breaks against RHEL or a RHEL rebuild, you get to keep the pieces
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:46:35
we implemented the epel office hours as one hour on the first wednesday of the month. fedocal doesn't support that repeat logic, only weekly, every two weeks, and every four weeks. it's a bit of a pain to have to create the calendar entries manually, and i even forgot and missed a few months. how would people feel about having the office hours at an interval supported by fedocal so i can use the repeat features?
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:47:27
my first thought was just having them weekly and emphasizing that they're completely optional, come and go as needed, but i realize now we could also do every two or four weeks. i don't really like every four weeks because it's close enough to a month to be confusing and wouldn't consistently be the first wednesday.
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:47:34
Yeah, totally get that w.r.t. HS; that's basically why I didn't ask :D
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:47:58
the problem with 2 or 4 weeks is people get confused on off/on weeks
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:48:13
(I have it in my calendar, but from what I've seen with others)
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:48:22
and if they miss one, it's no big deal
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:48:50
4 weeks is probably the worst
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:48:51
i kinda like have it weekly and super optional, and people just know if they want to drop in and say hi they can do it in the hour before the steering committee meeting
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:48:59
I really like the first week of the month, it's easy to remember, and like others, I have manually put it in my calendar.
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:49:32
manually putting it in our own calendars is not friendly to newcomers, hence why we have it in fedocal
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:49:54
too easy for me to forget to manually add the fedocal entries, and then we just show up based on our own calendars
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:50:01
if weekly it may not need to be a full hour?
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:50:05
May I introduce you to https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/remind/ :P
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:50:29
Is there any way we can patch fedocal so that it can do "once a month" things?
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:50:31
Not that it helps me make it on time to things, but... you know...
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:50:39
that's another possibility, could be just a half hour
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:51:17
yes, i'm familiar with calendar reminders. i had one set up to create the fedocal entries, and it still got screwed up.
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:51:38
fedocal isn't that great tbh
<@dherrera:fedora.im>
18:52:00
I have mixed feelings since it's comfortable for me to be at the beginning of the month, but I wouldn't mind a 2 week thing
<@dherrera:fedora.im>
18:52:48
I have mixed feelings since it's comfortable for me to be at the beginning of the month, but I wouldn't mind a once every two weeks thing
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:53:00
if someone has the bandwidth to try to modify fedocal to do "1st/2nd/3rd/4th *day of the month" that would be great, but i don't think it will be me
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:53:26
for the office hours themselves, I think monthly is good, but I can also see value in a weekly or biweekly meeting as well, if it's short/optional
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:54:01
the office hours are always optional fwiw
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:54:49
i missed one, it looks there is also a three week repeat option
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:54:54
oh, totally. just reinforcing that if the frequency is increased the duration should decrease
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:55:35
w.r.t. scheduling software, there had been some talk a couple months ago about an Events plugin for discussion.fp.o, which could be _a_ solution. I'm not sure what the status of that is, but I can take an action to poke CommOps folks about it. Agreed there's some TLC that Fedocal could use.
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:56:20
part of the pain is not only do i create the fedocal entries, i also post them in this discussion thread https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/join-us-for-the-epel-office-hours-every-month/37235
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
18:56:35
i guess i could just stop posting them in discourse, it's not strictly necessary
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:57:09
weelll, with the Discourse plugin, you'd just add a `[event ...]` bbcode and then it'd show up on an ical feed
<@neil:fedora.im>
18:57:48
but i hear your pain :(
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
18:59:02
<2 minutes left, table until next week?
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:59:05
We only have a couple of minutes left. I don't think we came to a consensus other than "whoever does the work, get's to choose" so Carl, for the most part, it sounds like whatever you want, but let us know.
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
18:59:19
Yep, what yselkowitz said.
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
19:00:01
Thank you all for coming and for the good discussions. Some Long, Some Short, but all good. And thank you all for all you do for EPEL and it's community.
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
19:00:11
Talk to you next week, if not sooner.
<@carlwgeorge:fedora.im>
19:00:26
i'll chew on it and bring it up again next week. i'm leaning towards 30 minutes every two weeks, but we'll see.
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
19:00:49
!endmeeting