#meeting-1:fedoraproject.org log

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:02:37

!startmeeting Fedora Image Mode Initiative

<@meetbot:fedora.im>

15:02:39

Meeting started at 2025-12-09 15:02:37 UTC

<@meetbot:fedora.im>

15:02:39

The Meeting name is 'Fedora Image Mode Initiative'

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:02:41

!topic roll call

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:02:44

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

15:02:45

Laura Santamaria (nimbinatus) - she / her / hers

<@hricky:fedora.im>

15:02:54

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

15:02:56

Hristo Marinov (hricky) - he / him / his

<@snthrailkill:matrix.org>

15:03:39

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

15:03:42

Sean Thrailkill (snthrailkill)

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:03:43

!hi

<@cverna_:matrix.org>

15:03:43

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

15:03:46

Colin Walters (walters)

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

15:03:46

Clement Verna (cverna) - he / him / his

<@jcapitao:matrix.org>

15:03:52

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

15:03:55

Joel Capitao (jcapitao) - he / him / his

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:05:45

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:05:45

I was just trying to track down the handles for a couple folks who said they wanted to be part of the group. So awkwardly tagging mattdm jbtrystram (or Jean-Baptiste Trystram ?) Timothée Ravier (travier) . I can't find Jeff Ligon, so if anyone knows Jeff's handle, feel free to tag.

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:05:45

If you can't make it, hopefully this reminds you to add the invite to your calendar from the Fedora calendar :D

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:06:34

on that note, though, I'll update the topic and we can get started!

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:06:51

!topic metadata for initiative

<@jmarrero:matrix.org>

15:07:04

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

15:07:05

Joseph Marrero (jmarrero)

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:07:23

I wanted to let folks know that, now that we've been approved for renewal, I've updated the wiki page for the initiative. Please feel free to edit or make adjustments!

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:07:42

!link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Initiatives/Fedora_bootc\

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:08:01

!link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Initiatives/Fedora_bootc

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:08:03

:facepalm: sorry about that extra slash

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:08:18

lol, use Colin's version

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:08:21

because he can type

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:08:23

and I can't

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:08:59

anyway, also, apparently by saying I'd shepherd this, I now have more meetings. If we hit blockers, I get to go talk with Council, so please let me know where blockers are so I can get rid of them

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:09:14

hmmm... what else about this one...

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:10:32

I guess that's all about the initiative metadata stuff specifically. We *do* have an initial naming doc going: !link https://hackmd.io/TpTH4INtQTKKRG64denXTA

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:10:44

add `/edit` to the end of that to add your name ideas and votes

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:11:04

(I have it open to the world, so trying to avoid the real thing showing up in our notes for crawlers and bots and trolls)

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:11:40

I'll be setting up our board on GitLab and all the fun tracking stuff and starting to make Discourse posts later this week.

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:11:53

I think that's all the administrivia I've got

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:12:27

not to derail but since you mentioned setting up a board on gitlab does anyone know the status of gitlab vs forgejo?

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:12:57

that's a good question! no clue, but I think I know where the ticket lives...

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:13:58

!link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Initiatives/Git_Forge_Initiative_2025

<@cverna_:matrix.org>

15:14:01

One down side of Forgejo is that we don't have the integration with Konflux, so I guess staying on GitLab for now is not necessarily bad

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:14:26

the wiki page has a bit of AI awkardness,

<@jcapitao:matrix.org>

15:14:52

yeah and there is no ETA of Forgejo support on Konflux

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:14:57

Or at least I assume that's the source, "To execute the guiding policy" is a weird phrase

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:15:04

!topic gitlab and forgejo

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:15:17

Yeah, looks like more info is really at !link https://forge.fedoraproject.org/forge/forge/

<@hricky:fedora.im>

15:16:17

Atomic Desktops moved some repos (Unified Docs) from GitLab to Forgejo and it looks good.

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:16:24

hmm... there was supposed to be an updated plan in there, but I can't find whatever was being referenced

<@jcapitao:matrix.org>

15:16:32

yup https://forge.fedoraproject.org/atomic-desktops

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:16:33

oh nice!

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:16:41

!link https://forge.fedoraproject.org/atomic-desktops

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:16:46

well, the integration of konflux and gitlab is still really poor too, which is I guess mostly due to gitlab's lack of equivalent to a GH "checks" API

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:17:24

On that topic... do we have a good wishlist/bug list for Konflux that we've encountered somewhere?

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:17:33

I'd like to share it with the Konflux folks when I get the chance to talk with them

<@jbtrystram:matrix.org>

15:18:14

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

15:18:16

Jean-Baptiste Trystram (jbtrystram) - he / him / his

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:18:47

I think they have a roadmap; the gitlab thing is not entirely their problem, AFAIK any external-to-gitlab CI system suffers some of the same and has to work around it one way or the other

<@jcapitao:matrix.org>

15:19:40

https://issues.redhat.com/browse/KONFLUX-11098

<@jcapitao:matrix.org>

15:19:40

I have some:

<@jcapitao:matrix.org>

15:19:40

https://issues.redhat.com/browse/KONFLUX-11323

<@jcapitao:matrix.org>

15:20:59

and https://issues.redhat.com/browse/KFLUXSPRT-6050 but it will be fixed with https://issues.redhat.com/browse/KONFLUX-11098

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:21:08

But I don't think there's any real blockers known at the moment right?

<@jcapitao:matrix.org>

15:22:08

right, no hard blockers

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:24:15

ok, good deal. I'm compiling stuff from a couple different groups to help Konflux understand how to serve other upstream communities, so this helps :)

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:24:36

it should help us moving forward, too, so we can get help if we need it for getting Konflux in a happy space for us

<@jcapitao:matrix.org>

15:25:26

the main ticket to track with Konflux folks is https://issues.redhat.com/browse/KONFLUX-11098 but they are aware, at least Ralph Bean

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:26:01

I've been doing some tweaks to the wiki, like https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Initiatives/Fedora_bootc&diff=prev&oldid=758935

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:26:56

go for it!

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:27:26

anyways maybe let's back up and get a slightly more formal agenda going?

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:27:39

the naming one seems important to try to decide soon

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:27:57

We can. I was mainly focusing on administrivia to ensure that got covered early. What other topics do we want to add?

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:28:52

For the naming discussion, how many folks do we want to include on the naming question? I think the folks who come to these meetings are all roughly on the same page, but there's a lot of people who have strong opinions.

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:29:06

!topic naming of the initiative, part 2

<@cverna_:matrix.org>

15:30:46

Personally I think the people doing the work should decide, but discussion.fp.o has a good poll plugin, maybe we could reduce the choices based on the our vote and get a wider vote on discussion.fp.o

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:30:59

^^ that's kinda what I was thinking

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:31:39

I'd like to get more serious naming options on the list; I was just kicking some ideas around. The "Image Mode" naming seems very polarizing, so I was trying to put a couple of alternatives in there that gets the same idea across

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:32:19

(Also, in case it's not clear, the "All Your Base" was a joke; please don't actually vote for it!)

<@cverna_:matrix.org>

15:34:05

In the RHEL context, it is called image mode for RHEL, the product is RHEL and image mode is just a way to consume RHEL. So "image mode for" is not directly a Red Hat product.

<@cverna_:matrix.org>

15:34:14

I know that there was some concerns about this

<@cverna_:matrix.org>

15:34:36

I know that there were some concerns about this

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:35:10

Some concerns were around the similarity to RHEL, but there was another concern that seemed to stem from the idea that an ISO is an image, just not a container image

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:35:48

now, personally, I'm not too worried about the issue around RHEL having a similar name for their mode simply because it's not like we decided to rename ISOs or packages or...

<@cverna_:matrix.org>

15:37:07

Atomic has a strong brand and recognition in Fedora too, and AFAIK we don't plan to rename the Atomic Desktops. Personally I would be happy with Atomic too

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:37:18

Is there any reason *not* to use Atomic?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:37:48

probably not

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:37:51

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

15:37:52

Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:37:53

So, history question for folks like me who might not quite know all the skeletons here: Does Atomic only refer to desktops? Would we be constraining ourselves too much?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:37:58

this is pretty much a continuation of Project Atomic anyway

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:38:25

Project Atomic, where the Atomic Desktops name comes from, covered cloud, server, and desktop cases

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:38:35

Fedora Atomic Host became Fedora CoreOS

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:38:38

That's the part I'm not sure is correct: I don't know for sure this is a continuation of Project Atomic other than it had a similar concept

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:38:47

Fedora Atomic Workstation became Fedora Silverblue

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:38:49

We could argue it's a continuation of CoreOS

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:38:57

that's why I'm not sure I agree

<@cverna_:matrix.org>

15:39:02

!link https://projectatomic.io/

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:39:15

CoreOS had the idea of a rolling update OS designed to run under containers

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:39:31

but this is very different, imho, from CoreOS's original idea

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:39:32

I think the "consume" vs "build" is a big shift of emphasis

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:39:38

yup

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:40:13

well, the reason for that was that the build tooling was/is obnoxious

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:40:22

nobody wanted to push that hard because it was so difficult

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:40:59

The build tooling for which one? CoreOS or Project Atomic?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:41:08

building OSes this way naturally lends itself away from gen-pop deliverables and more tailored ones, so if the tooling wasn't difficult, that would have been part of the story from the beginning

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:41:16

Project Atomic and current CoreOS

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:41:43

Do you have a link or details to share on which parts of the tooling were frustrating for you?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:42:10

I think going over that would be a bit much for today's meeting

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:42:32

but the point I'm trying to make is that it's a natural progression when the tooling is naturally easier to adopt and adapt

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:42:38

I think the details are important to know what baggage the Atomic name might bring with it that we'll have to fight with

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:42:58

starting from a new name usually means it's easier to get adoption versus "oh, I tried that" from before

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:43:26

unless you were someone trying to make custom server appliances with rpm-ostree (which weren't that many), it is unlikely that is an issue

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:44:06

I'm okay with also saying we could use CoreOS brand, but I don't know if we're actually permitted to

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:44:18

no, I don't think we want to use the CoreOS brand

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:44:21

it's a very different history

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:44:23

I know we can use it specifically for the deliverable that was formerly Fedora Atomic Host

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:44:32

and that's not related to bootc, the upstream project

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:44:45

it would cause too much confusion; it's a subproject

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:44:52

somewhat part of the point is that the brand shouldn't be tied to the technology

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:45:09

and naturally _not_ describe it too much

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:45:15

unfortunately, CoreOS has a lot of history. I wouldn't use it for this.

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:45:21

That being said, let's turn back here

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:45:30

we've got a starter list on the hackmd doc

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:45:33

I think an interesting thing to consider here is whether other container-related things should be part of the umbrella - the app base image, konflux

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:45:46

how many options do you all want for a general poll? 3? 5?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:45:57

I would have considered the whole thing to be part of it

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:46:39

it's really a completely alternate codepath and delivery process divorced from the mainline one

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:46:47

so a subproject brand makes a lot more sense there

<@cverna_:matrix.org>

15:47:05

Fedora Cloud Native 😅

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:47:18

ouch

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:47:28

Let's add it to the list

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:47:35

we should have all of the options out there

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:47:38

I don't think we want to be laughed at by Linux people

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:47:38

let the community decide with us

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:47:45

but sure

<@cverna_:matrix.org>

15:48:05

We could be laughed at by the Linux people and loved by the Cloud Native crowd

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:48:06

I'd rather be laughed at and include everyone versus narrowing things unnecessarily and not giving people an option

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:48:30

so!

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:48:33

onward!

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:48:42

We've got 10 ish minutes

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:48:43

fine with me, it's an option on the poll :)

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:48:50

do y'all have any technical topics to bring up?

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:49:10

how's the migration with CoreOS going?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:49:14

is it possible yet to do bootc without rpm-ostree?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:49:25

or at least is there a doc about how you do it either way?

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:49:42

!topic bootc without rpm-ostree

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:49:48

been looking into kiwi support for it and it's an open question for me

<@cverna_:matrix.org>

15:50:30

Do you mean without ostree? because if you use bootc (the client) then you don't need rpm-ostree

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:51:13

I'm pretty happy with the rough shape of bootc-base-imagectl - the idea is the base image can rebuild itself in a container-native way; that's intended to eventually be backed by something else

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:51:13

well if I want this to work properly it needs to be compatible without it and with it, since different workflows necessitate one path or another

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:51:34

But there's https://github.com/bootcrew which has a lot of examples of more from-scratch flows

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:51:47

e.g. we need rpm-ostree support in images for desktops because otherwise no graphical update support

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:51:56

!link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/bootc/building-from-scratch/

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:52:23

directly supporting bootc has looked horrible each way I've seen someone try for the GUI, so there's some stuff that needs to be done there to make that less ugly

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:52:45

Yeah, we do need a canonical polkit helper and progress api

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:53:20

the ugliest thing I've seen is a PackageKit backend

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:53:37

that uses the python spawn thingy to handle CLI parsing and json parsing from bootc and skopeo

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:53:55

no way I want to show that to the world, my eyes burned looking at it

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:54:16

but at least one distro is planning on shipping it

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

15:54:37

in absence of a better integration story for plain bootc

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:54:40

So I'd like to take these last 5 minutes of the meeting to handle any initiative business. Can we move this conversation to the room, please?

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:55:42

We can add a ticket for a polkit helper and progress API

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:55:44

So we are committed to a rename, which might get wrapped up in infrastructure rework too - a lot going on there

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:55:53

!action add ticket for polkit helper and progress API

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:56:05

Yup! there's a lot to consider here

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:56:15

The progress api is already at https://github.com/bootc-dev/bootc/issues/1016

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:56:20

ooo nice

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:56:25

!link https://github.com/bootc-dev/bootc/issues/1016

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:56:55

Anyone have any additional tech topics/things we need to think about for the next week?

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

15:57:53

I will admit I'm still catching up to a bunch of stuff after taking some additional PTO last week, so I may have missed something important around my emails or Discourse or here

<@walters:fedora.im>

15:59:57

Offhand no, though what I think would be good to figure out is ensuring some of the big ticket things here have a person leading/assigned

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

16:00:59

All right. I'll take on getting those tickets in alignment on GitLab and setting up our project board, and then I'll ask for volunteers in our room

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

16:01:11

on that note, we're on time, so have a great week y'all!

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

16:01:29

!action Laura to take on getting those tickets in alignment on GitLab and setting up our project board, and then I'll ask for volunteers in our room

<@walters:fedora.im>

16:01:35

I'm happy to help with some of that, setting up 1:1 or small groups focused on a task I think can help speed things up

<@walters:fedora.im>

16:01:51

thanks for running the meeting nimbinatus and thanks for the input from everyone!

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

16:01:54

Thanks!

<@nimbinatus:matrix.org>

16:02:02

!endmeeting