2025-12-09 15:02:37 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> !startmeeting Fedora Image Mode Initiative
2025-12-09 15:02:39 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2025-12-09 15:02:37 UTC
2025-12-09 15:02:39 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'Fedora Image Mode Initiative'
2025-12-09 15:02:41 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> !topic roll call
2025-12-09 15:02:44 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> !hi
2025-12-09 15:02:45 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Laura Santamaria (nimbinatus) - she / her / hers
2025-12-09 15:02:54 <@hricky:fedora.im> !hi
2025-12-09 15:02:56 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Hristo Marinov (hricky) - he / him / his
2025-12-09 15:03:39 <@snthrailkill:matrix.org> !hi
2025-12-09 15:03:42 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Sean Thrailkill (snthrailkill)
2025-12-09 15:03:43 <@walters:fedora.im> !hi
2025-12-09 15:03:43 <@cverna_:matrix.org> !hi
2025-12-09 15:03:46 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Colin Walters (walters)
2025-12-09 15:03:46 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Clement Verna (cverna) - he / him / his
2025-12-09 15:03:52 <@jcapitao:matrix.org> !hi
2025-12-09 15:03:55 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Joel Capitao (jcapitao) - he / him / his
2025-12-09 15:05:45 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> 
2025-12-09 15:05:45 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> I was just trying to track down the handles for a couple folks who said they wanted to be part of the group. So awkwardly tagging mattdm jbtrystram (or Jean-Baptiste Trystram ?) Timothée Ravier (travier) . I can't find Jeff Ligon, so if anyone knows Jeff's handle, feel free to tag.
2025-12-09 15:05:45 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> If you can't make it, hopefully this reminds you to add the invite to your calendar from the Fedora calendar :D
2025-12-09 15:06:34 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> on that note, though, I'll update the topic and we can get started!
2025-12-09 15:06:51 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> !topic metadata for initiative
2025-12-09 15:07:04 <@jmarrero:matrix.org> !hi
2025-12-09 15:07:05 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Joseph Marrero (jmarrero)
2025-12-09 15:07:23 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> I wanted to let folks know that, now that we've been approved for renewal, I've updated the wiki page for the initiative. Please feel free to edit or make adjustments!
2025-12-09 15:07:42 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> !link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Initiatives/Fedora_bootc\
2025-12-09 15:08:01 <@walters:fedora.im> !link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Initiatives/Fedora_bootc
2025-12-09 15:08:03 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> :facepalm: sorry about that extra slash
2025-12-09 15:08:18 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> lol, use Colin's version
2025-12-09 15:08:21 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> because he can type
2025-12-09 15:08:23 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> and I can't
2025-12-09 15:08:59 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> anyway, also, apparently by saying I'd shepherd this, I now have more meetings. If we hit blockers, I get to go talk with Council, so please let me know where blockers are so I can get rid of them
2025-12-09 15:09:14 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> hmmm... what else about this one...
2025-12-09 15:10:32 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> I guess that's all about the initiative metadata stuff specifically. We *do* have an initial naming doc going: !link https://hackmd.io/TpTH4INtQTKKRG64denXTA
2025-12-09 15:10:44 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> add `/edit` to the end of that to add your name ideas and votes
2025-12-09 15:11:04 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> (I have it open to the world, so trying to avoid the real thing showing up in our notes for crawlers and bots and trolls)
2025-12-09 15:11:40 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> I'll be setting up our board on GitLab and all the fun tracking stuff and starting to make Discourse posts later this week.
2025-12-09 15:11:53 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> I think that's all the administrivia I've got
2025-12-09 15:12:27 <@walters:fedora.im> not to derail but since you mentioned setting up a board on gitlab does anyone know the status of gitlab vs forgejo? 
2025-12-09 15:12:57 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> that's a good question! no clue, but I think I know where the ticket lives...
2025-12-09 15:13:58 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> !link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Initiatives/Git_Forge_Initiative_2025
2025-12-09 15:14:01 <@cverna_:matrix.org> One down side of Forgejo is that we don't have the integration with Konflux, so I guess staying on GitLab for now is not necessarily bad
2025-12-09 15:14:26 <@walters:fedora.im> the wiki page has a bit of AI awkardness, 
2025-12-09 15:14:52 <@jcapitao:matrix.org> yeah and there is no ETA of Forgejo support on Konflux
2025-12-09 15:14:57 <@walters:fedora.im> Or at least I assume that's the source, "To execute the guiding policy" is a weird phrase
2025-12-09 15:15:04 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> !topic gitlab and forgejo
2025-12-09 15:15:17 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> Yeah, looks like more info is really at !link https://forge.fedoraproject.org/forge/forge/
2025-12-09 15:16:17 <@hricky:fedora.im> Atomic Desktops moved some repos (Unified Docs) from GitLab to Forgejo and it looks good.
2025-12-09 15:16:24 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> hmm... there was supposed to be an updated plan in there, but I can't find whatever was being referenced
2025-12-09 15:16:32 <@jcapitao:matrix.org> yup https://forge.fedoraproject.org/atomic-desktops
2025-12-09 15:16:33 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> oh nice!
2025-12-09 15:16:41 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> !link https://forge.fedoraproject.org/atomic-desktops
2025-12-09 15:16:46 <@walters:fedora.im> well, the integration of konflux and gitlab is still really poor too, which is I guess mostly due to gitlab's lack of equivalent to a GH "checks" API
2025-12-09 15:17:24 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> On that topic... do we have a good wishlist/bug list for Konflux that we've encountered somewhere?
2025-12-09 15:17:33 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> I'd like to share it with the Konflux folks when I get the chance to talk with them
2025-12-09 15:18:14 <@jbtrystram:matrix.org> !hi
2025-12-09 15:18:16 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Jean-Baptiste Trystram (jbtrystram) - he / him / his
2025-12-09 15:18:47 <@walters:fedora.im> I think they have a roadmap; the gitlab thing is not entirely their problem, AFAIK any external-to-gitlab CI system suffers some of the same and has to work around it one way or the other
2025-12-09 15:19:40 <@jcapitao:matrix.org> https://issues.redhat.com/browse/KONFLUX-11098
2025-12-09 15:19:40 <@jcapitao:matrix.org> I have some:
2025-12-09 15:19:40 <@jcapitao:matrix.org> https://issues.redhat.com/browse/KONFLUX-11323
2025-12-09 15:20:59 <@jcapitao:matrix.org> and https://issues.redhat.com/browse/KFLUXSPRT-6050 but it will be fixed with https://issues.redhat.com/browse/KONFLUX-11098
2025-12-09 15:21:08 <@walters:fedora.im> But I don't think there's any real blockers known at the moment right?
2025-12-09 15:22:08 <@jcapitao:matrix.org> right, no hard blockers
2025-12-09 15:24:15 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> ok, good deal. I'm compiling stuff from a couple different groups to help Konflux understand how to serve other upstream communities, so this helps :)
2025-12-09 15:24:36 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> it should help us moving forward, too, so we can get help if we need it for getting Konflux in a happy space for us
2025-12-09 15:25:26 <@jcapitao:matrix.org> the main ticket to track with Konflux folks is https://issues.redhat.com/browse/KONFLUX-11098 but they are aware, at least Ralph Bean
2025-12-09 15:26:01 <@walters:fedora.im> I've been doing some tweaks to the wiki, like https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Initiatives/Fedora_bootc&diff=prev&oldid=758935
2025-12-09 15:26:56 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> go for it!
2025-12-09 15:27:26 <@walters:fedora.im> anyways maybe let's back up and get a slightly more formal agenda going? 
2025-12-09 15:27:39 <@walters:fedora.im> the naming one seems important to try to decide soon
2025-12-09 15:27:57 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> We can. I was mainly focusing on administrivia to ensure that got covered early. What other topics do we want to add?
2025-12-09 15:28:52 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> For the naming discussion, how many folks do we want to include on the naming question? I think the folks who come to these meetings are all roughly on the same page, but there's a lot of people who have strong opinions.
2025-12-09 15:29:06 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> !topic naming of the initiative, part 2
2025-12-09 15:30:46 <@cverna_:matrix.org> Personally I think the people doing the work should decide, but discussion.fp.o has a good poll plugin, maybe we could reduce the choices based on the our vote and get a wider vote on discussion.fp.o
2025-12-09 15:30:59 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> ^^ that's kinda what I was thinking
2025-12-09 15:31:39 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> I'd like to get more serious naming options on the list; I was just kicking some ideas around. The "Image Mode" naming seems very polarizing, so I was trying to put a couple of alternatives in there that gets the same idea across
2025-12-09 15:32:19 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> (Also, in case it's not clear, the "All Your Base" was a joke; please don't actually vote for it!)
2025-12-09 15:34:05 <@cverna_:matrix.org> In the RHEL context, it is called image mode for RHEL, the product is RHEL and image mode is just a way to consume RHEL. So "image mode for" is not directly a Red Hat product.
2025-12-09 15:34:14 <@cverna_:matrix.org> I know that there was some concerns about this
2025-12-09 15:34:36 <@cverna_:matrix.org> I know that there were some concerns about this
2025-12-09 15:35:10 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> Some concerns were around the similarity to RHEL, but there was another concern that seemed to stem from the idea that an ISO is an image, just not a container image
2025-12-09 15:35:48 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> now, personally, I'm not too worried about the issue around RHEL having a similar name for their mode simply because it's not like we decided to rename ISOs or packages or...
2025-12-09 15:37:07 <@cverna_:matrix.org> Atomic has a strong brand and recognition in Fedora too, and AFAIK we don't plan to rename the Atomic Desktops. Personally I would be happy with Atomic too
2025-12-09 15:37:18 <@walters:fedora.im> Is there any reason *not* to use Atomic? 
2025-12-09 15:37:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> probably not
2025-12-09 15:37:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2025-12-09 15:37:52 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2025-12-09 15:37:53 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> So, history question for folks like me who might not quite know all the skeletons here: Does Atomic only refer to desktops? Would we be constraining ourselves too much?
2025-12-09 15:37:58 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> this is pretty much a continuation of Project Atomic anyway
2025-12-09 15:38:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Project Atomic, where the Atomic Desktops name comes from, covered cloud, server, and desktop cases
2025-12-09 15:38:35 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Fedora Atomic Host became Fedora CoreOS
2025-12-09 15:38:38 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> That's the part I'm not sure is correct: I don't know for sure this is a continuation of Project Atomic other than it had a similar concept
2025-12-09 15:38:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Fedora Atomic Workstation became Fedora Silverblue
2025-12-09 15:38:49 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> We could argue it's a continuation of CoreOS
2025-12-09 15:38:57 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> that's why I'm not sure I agree
2025-12-09 15:39:02 <@cverna_:matrix.org> !link https://projectatomic.io/
2025-12-09 15:39:15 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> CoreOS had the idea of a rolling update OS designed to run under containers
2025-12-09 15:39:31 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> but this is very different, imho, from CoreOS's original idea
2025-12-09 15:39:32 <@walters:fedora.im> I think the "consume" vs "build" is a big shift of emphasis
2025-12-09 15:39:38 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> yup
2025-12-09 15:40:13 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well, the reason for that was that the build tooling was/is obnoxious
2025-12-09 15:40:22 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> nobody wanted to push that hard because it was so difficult
2025-12-09 15:40:59 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> The build tooling for which one? CoreOS or Project Atomic?
2025-12-09 15:41:08 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> building OSes this way naturally lends itself away from gen-pop deliverables and more tailored ones, so if the tooling wasn't difficult, that would have been part of the story from the beginning
2025-12-09 15:41:16 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Project Atomic and current CoreOS
2025-12-09 15:41:43 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> Do you have a link or details to share on which parts of the tooling were frustrating for you?
2025-12-09 15:42:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I think going over that would be a bit much for today's meeting
2025-12-09 15:42:32 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but the point I'm trying to make is that it's a natural progression when the tooling is naturally easier to adopt and adapt
2025-12-09 15:42:38 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> I think the details are important to know what baggage the Atomic name might bring with it that we'll have to fight with
2025-12-09 15:42:58 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> starting from a new name usually means it's easier to get adoption versus "oh, I tried that" from before
2025-12-09 15:43:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> unless you were someone trying to make custom server appliances with rpm-ostree (which weren't that many), it is unlikely that is an issue
2025-12-09 15:44:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm okay with also saying we could use CoreOS brand, but I don't know if we're actually permitted to
2025-12-09 15:44:18 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> no, I don't think we want to use the CoreOS brand
2025-12-09 15:44:21 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> it's a very different history
2025-12-09 15:44:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I know we can use it specifically for the deliverable that was formerly Fedora Atomic Host
2025-12-09 15:44:32 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> and that's not related to bootc, the upstream project
2025-12-09 15:44:45 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> it would cause too much confusion; it's a subproject
2025-12-09 15:44:52 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> somewhat part of the point is that the brand shouldn't be tied to the technology
2025-12-09 15:45:09 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and naturally _not_ describe it too much
2025-12-09 15:45:15 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> unfortunately, CoreOS has a lot of history. I wouldn't use it for this.
2025-12-09 15:45:21 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> That being said, let's turn back here
2025-12-09 15:45:30 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> we've got a starter list on the hackmd doc
2025-12-09 15:45:33 <@walters:fedora.im> I think an interesting thing to consider here is whether other container-related things should be part of the umbrella - the app base image, konflux
2025-12-09 15:45:46 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> how many options do you all want for a general poll? 3? 5?
2025-12-09 15:45:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I would have considered the whole thing to be part of it
2025-12-09 15:46:39 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it's really a completely alternate codepath and delivery process divorced from the mainline one
2025-12-09 15:46:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so a subproject brand makes a lot more sense there
2025-12-09 15:47:05 <@cverna_:matrix.org> Fedora Cloud Native 😅
2025-12-09 15:47:18 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> ouch
2025-12-09 15:47:28 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> Let's add it to the list
2025-12-09 15:47:35 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> we should have all of the options out there
2025-12-09 15:47:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I don't think we want to be laughed at by Linux people
2025-12-09 15:47:38 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> let the community decide with us
2025-12-09 15:47:45 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but sure
2025-12-09 15:48:05 <@cverna_:matrix.org> We could be laughed at by the Linux people and loved by the Cloud Native crowd
2025-12-09 15:48:06 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> I'd rather be laughed at and include everyone versus narrowing things unnecessarily and not giving people an option
2025-12-09 15:48:30 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> so!
2025-12-09 15:48:33 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> onward!
2025-12-09 15:48:42 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> We've got 10 ish minutes
2025-12-09 15:48:43 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> fine with me, it's an option on the poll :)
2025-12-09 15:48:50 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> do y'all have any technical topics to bring up?
2025-12-09 15:49:10 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> how's the migration with CoreOS going?
2025-12-09 15:49:14 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> is it possible yet to do bootc without rpm-ostree?
2025-12-09 15:49:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> or at least is there a doc about how you do it either way?
2025-12-09 15:49:42 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> !topic bootc without rpm-ostree
2025-12-09 15:49:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> been looking into kiwi support for it and it's an open question for me
2025-12-09 15:50:30 <@cverna_:matrix.org> Do you mean without ostree? because if you use bootc (the client) then you don't need rpm-ostree
2025-12-09 15:51:13 <@walters:fedora.im> I'm pretty happy with the rough shape of bootc-base-imagectl - the idea is the base image can rebuild itself in a container-native way; that's intended to eventually be backed by something else
2025-12-09 15:51:13 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well if I want this to work properly it needs to be compatible without it and with it, since different workflows necessitate one path or another
2025-12-09 15:51:34 <@walters:fedora.im> But there's https://github.com/bootcrew which has a lot of examples of more from-scratch flows
2025-12-09 15:51:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> e.g. we need rpm-ostree support in images for desktops because otherwise no graphical update support
2025-12-09 15:51:56 <@walters:fedora.im> !link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/bootc/building-from-scratch/
2025-12-09 15:52:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> directly supporting bootc has looked horrible each way I've seen someone try for the GUI, so there's some stuff that needs to be done there to make that less ugly
2025-12-09 15:52:45 <@walters:fedora.im> Yeah, we do need a canonical polkit helper and progress api
2025-12-09 15:53:20 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the ugliest thing I've seen is a PackageKit backend
2025-12-09 15:53:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that uses the python spawn thingy to handle CLI parsing and json parsing from bootc and skopeo
2025-12-09 15:53:55 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> no way I want to show that to the world, my eyes burned looking at it
2025-12-09 15:54:16 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but at least one distro is planning on shipping it
2025-12-09 15:54:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> in absence of a better integration story for plain bootc
2025-12-09 15:54:40 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> So I'd like to take these last 5 minutes of the meeting to handle any initiative business. Can we move this conversation to the room, please?
2025-12-09 15:55:42 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> We can add a ticket for a polkit helper and progress API
2025-12-09 15:55:44 <@walters:fedora.im> So we are committed to a rename, which might get wrapped up in infrastructure rework too - a lot going on there
2025-12-09 15:55:53 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> !action add ticket for polkit helper and progress API
2025-12-09 15:56:05 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> Yup! there's a lot to consider here
2025-12-09 15:56:15 <@walters:fedora.im> The progress api is already at https://github.com/bootc-dev/bootc/issues/1016
2025-12-09 15:56:20 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> ooo nice
2025-12-09 15:56:25 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> !link https://github.com/bootc-dev/bootc/issues/1016
2025-12-09 15:56:55 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> Anyone have any additional tech topics/things we need to think about for the next week?
2025-12-09 15:57:53 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> I will admit I'm still catching up to a bunch of stuff after taking some additional PTO last week, so I may have missed something important around my emails or Discourse or here
2025-12-09 15:59:57 <@walters:fedora.im> Offhand no, though what I think would be good to figure out is ensuring some of the big ticket things here have a person leading/assigned
2025-12-09 16:00:59 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> All right. I'll take on getting those tickets in alignment on GitLab and setting up our project board, and then I'll ask for volunteers in our room
2025-12-09 16:01:11 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> on that note, we're on time, so have a great week y'all!
2025-12-09 16:01:29 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> !action Laura to take on getting those tickets in alignment on GitLab and setting up our project board, and then I'll ask for volunteers in our room
2025-12-09 16:01:35 <@walters:fedora.im> I'm happy to help with some of that, setting up 1:1 or small groups focused on a task I think can help speed things up
2025-12-09 16:01:51 <@walters:fedora.im> thanks for running the meeting nimbinatus and thanks for the input from everyone!
2025-12-09 16:01:54 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> Thanks!
2025-12-09 16:02:02 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> !endmeeting