2026-04-16 16:00:44 <@james:fedora.im> !startmeeting fpc

2026-04-16 16:00:45 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2026-04-16 16:00:44 UTC
2026-04-16 16:00:45 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'fpc'
2026-04-16 16:00:47 <@james:fedora.im> !topic Roll Call
2026-04-16 16:00:50 <@salimma:fedora.im> !hi
2026-04-16 16:00:53 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Michel Lind ☘ UTC+1: Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
2026-04-16 16:01:18 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> !hi
2026-04-16 16:01:19 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Fabio Valentini: Fabio Valentini (decathorpe) - he / him / his
2026-04-16 16:01:25 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> gah meeting No. 3 for today :( 
2026-04-16 16:01:27 <@james:fedora.im> !hi
2026-04-16 16:01:30 <@zodbot:fedora.im> James: James Antill (james) - he / him / his
2026-04-16 16:01:57 <@james:fedora.im> Only number 2 for me ... you're winning!
2026-04-16 16:02:28 <@tibbs:fedora.im> Hello.
2026-04-16 16:03:26 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> !hi
2026-04-16 16:03:27 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Carl George: Carl George (carlwgeorge) - he / him / his
2026-04-16 16:04:17 <@james:fedora.im> Is getmax on matrix?
2026-04-16 16:05:06 <@james:fedora.im> gotmax23: Hey
2026-04-16 16:05:07 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> gotmax23 ? 
2026-04-16 16:05:21 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, brain melting apparently.
2026-04-16 16:07:19 <@gotmax:matrix.org> !hi
2026-04-16 16:07:21 <@zodbot:fedora.im> gotmax23: Maxwell G (gotmax23) - he / him / his or they / them / theirs
2026-04-16 16:08:07 <@james:fedora.im> No problem ... is there anything you wanted to talk about?
2026-04-16 16:09:32 <@james:fedora.im> The only real ticket we have to talk about is the Forge move one ... and I assume it's going to take up a bunch of time once we start, so now's the time to bring up anything else.
2026-04-16 16:09:46 <@gotmax:matrix.org> I had https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1531
2026-04-16 16:10:15 <@gotmax:matrix.org> I also did discuss the Forge orgs with Ryan a bit so happy to be here for that discussion also
2026-04-16 16:10:23 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, I figured something might have prompted that though ... like something you are looking to change/help-with?
2026-04-16 16:10:30 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I marked https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1512 as meeting a while ago, it would be good to discuss .. 
2026-04-16 16:10:39 <@tibbs:fedora.im> For the forge, we should just actually pick something and move forward.
2026-04-16 16:11:01 <@tibbs:fedora.im> For 1531, we should definitely consider trimming non-active members at this point.
2026-04-16 16:11:23 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I have strong doubts we'll see Xavier again and will probably not see Igor, either.
2026-04-16 16:11:40 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, igor turned up once last year, I think.
2026-04-16 16:11:50 <@james:fedora.im> xavier less than that.
2026-04-16 16:11:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2026-04-16 16:11:53 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Conan Kudo 🤢: Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2026-04-16 16:12:06 <@tibbs:fedora.im> That would get us back to 9 members, which is the historical number.
2026-04-16 16:12:15 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh
2026-04-16 16:12:19 <@tibbs:fedora.im> Assuming I'm actually looking at the correct membership list.
2026-04-16 16:12:32 <@tibbs:fedora.im> And also assuming we add gotmax23 
2026-04-16 16:12:45 <@gotmax:matrix.org> I had been thinking of joining for a while and then I found myself participating in the Forge discussions and figured I ought to ask to join officially
2026-04-16 16:12:56 <@gotmax:matrix.org> I had been thinking of joining for a while and then I found myself participating in the Forge migration discussion and figured I ought to ask to join officially
2026-04-16 16:13:36 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I see no reason not to have someone who wants to do things and who obviously understands what we do.
2026-04-16 16:14:06 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, the one I consult the most: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging_Committee_Meeting_Process#On_the_day_of_the_meeting ... doesn't have xavier, as he's never turned up on matrix IIRC.
2026-04-16 16:15:24 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I'm looking at who is currently an admin of https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/
2026-04-16 16:16:11 <@gotmax:matrix.org> There's also https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging_Committee#Members which seems to match the admins there
2026-04-16 16:16:24 <@james:fedora.im> Do we want to approve this one "quickly"?
2026-04-16 16:16:39 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> i'm +1 to replacing igor with max
2026-04-16 16:16:50 <@james:fedora.im> I'm fairly happy to just shrug and let very experienced packagers do stuff like that.
2026-04-16 16:17:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> sure +1
2026-04-16 16:17:29 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, I'm +1 adding max and removing xavier and igor.
2026-04-16 16:17:51 <@tibbs:fedora.im> +1
2026-04-16 16:17:53 <@salimma:fedora.im> which one are we voting on? let's do membersihp first then go to the ruby thing
2026-04-16 16:17:59 <@salimma:fedora.im> +1 on the membership changes
2026-04-16 16:17:59 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> both +1!
2026-04-16 16:18:16 <@tibbs:fedora.im> +1 (to the membership thing)
2026-04-16 16:18:27 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> though for the rubygem cucumber thing we might need to wordsmith something.
2026-04-16 16:18:28 <@james:fedora.im> two votes at once, for twice the fun ;)
2026-04-16 16:18:29 <@salimma:fedora.im> on the ruby issue I'll note that for python we don't strictly package from pypi, right? often the pypi upload is missing tests and maintainers would switch to the github archive
2026-04-16 16:19:21 <@james:fedora.im> AIUI there's some kind of compatibility attempts/promises ... so we don't intentionally do things which break pypi usage.
2026-04-16 16:19:46 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah we don't
2026-04-16 16:20:03 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> there was a couple of attempts at it, but they went badly
2026-04-16 16:20:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I also, as a general rule, don't _actually_ want to force getting sources from a particular place for an ecosystem
2026-04-16 16:20:46 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> Ruby guidelines are currently more strict, they say sources MUST be from rubygems. we'd need to relax that requirement to something more like what's currently in the Python guidelines, I think, to address this ticket.
2026-04-16 16:20:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yup
2026-04-16 16:21:17 <@salimma:fedora.im> yeah
2026-04-16 16:21:20 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> as long as the built package is ~equivalent (for relevant definition of equivalent), I think this would be OK
2026-04-16 16:21:26 <@salimma:fedora.im> I'd rather relax the requirement in general than grant exceptions
2026-04-16 16:22:09 <@gotmax:matrix.org> Well, the Python guidelines provide no recommendation at all
2026-04-16 16:22:20 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, I'm at least +1 for https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1512#comment-1000092
2026-04-16 16:22:32 <@gotmax:matrix.org> Is there a reason that in all/most/some cases rubygem archives are preferred?
2026-04-16 16:22:44 <@james:fedora.im> And probably fine for relaxing, unless some Ruby SIG person shows up and starts shouting no.
2026-04-16 16:22:45 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that is on purpose
2026-04-16 16:22:53 <@gotmax:matrix.org> Bc for Python some times the PyPI sdists are missing tests or have other issues
2026-04-16 16:23:33 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I vaguely recall that gem data doesn't always exist anywhere except in gem archives
2026-04-16 16:23:35 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> +1 to switching that ruby guideline to SHOULD.  it sounds like rust has good reasons to keep theirs as MUST, so i don't think we need to align this approach across the language package managers.
2026-04-16 16:23:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but that is probably not true these days
2026-04-16 16:23:55 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> that sounds good to me
2026-04-16 16:24:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm not sure if it should be a MUST for rust either... but today is not the day I want to argue that
2026-04-16 16:25:14 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> no opinion on that, i just mean i'm fine letting it be decided per-stack versus making a blanket thing for everybody
2026-04-16 16:25:19 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> we *can* talk about that at some point - though for now, all uses I've seen in packages that circumvent the MUST rule are ... bad
2026-04-16 16:26:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah, the reason the rule is there is to avoid really bad things
2026-04-16 16:26:49 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but the main thing I'm thinking of is having one source package for a collection of crates
2026-04-16 16:27:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> interdependent crates are messy
2026-04-16 16:27:13 <@salimma:fedora.im> yeah let's modify it for Ruby, not in general. but not a per-package opt out either
2026-04-16 16:27:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and when they are from one git repo on github... I'd rather do that
2026-04-16 16:27:31 <@salimma:fedora.im> well we do allow packaging a workspace all at once
2026-04-16 16:27:33 <@salimma:fedora.im> (for Rust)
2026-04-16 16:27:34 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but again, some other time
2026-04-16 16:27:34 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> (for that I'm waiting for the cargo RFC which would add nested crates as first-class feature, rather than botch it in packaging ...)
2026-04-16 16:27:39 <@salimma:fedora.im> it's just you can't do rust-* crates that way
2026-04-16 16:27:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah, fish is like this
2026-04-16 16:27:53 <@salimma:fedora.im> oh nice
2026-04-16 16:27:55 <@gotmax:matrix.org> Yeah the current experience of packaging workspaces as a bunch of separate packages is a bit tedious
2026-04-16 16:28:17 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> tedious, yes, but for now still the best choice lacking better supported alternatives IMO
2026-04-16 16:28:27 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> anyway, off-topic for Ruby 
2026-04-16 16:31:11 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I'm a big fan of "whatever makes the most sense" and in this case, relaxing the ruby guideline seems to make sense.  I don't know if it makes sense to have a specific-case exception or to relax it for all ruby things.
2026-04-16 16:31:30 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I don't know a whole lot about the ruby ecosystem.
2026-04-16 16:31:58 <@james:fedora.im> I'm fine just doing s/MUST/SHOULD/ in ruby, if people who know more think that's fine. Still +1 for the exceptions in the ticket, if not.
2026-04-16 16:32:19 <@gotmax:matrix.org> Can we +1 this specific case to unblock them and ask them to them submit changed to the guidelines?
2026-04-16 16:32:44 <@gotmax:matrix.org> Whether that should be SHOULD instead of MUST or MUST except in certain cases
2026-04-16 16:32:55 <@gotmax:matrix.org> Can we +1 this specific case to unblock them and ask them to them propose changes to the guidelines?
2026-04-16 16:33:17 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> that sounds good to me. unblock work and move actual guidelines changes to tomorrow's problems :D
2026-04-16 16:33:40 <@james:fedora.im> That's fair, my only concern is they'll just go away once their problem is solved.
2026-04-16 16:34:14 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I doubt that this will be the case with music  being involved :) 
2026-04-16 16:34:20 <@james:fedora.im> Everyone good with this?
2026-04-16 16:34:49 <@gotmax:matrix.org> I'm also fine with saying we're generally okay with this but please file a PR first
2026-04-16 16:35:22 <@gotmax:matrix.org> But this is a four month old ticket so it would be nice to have some decision by now
2026-04-16 16:35:30 <@salimma:fedora.im> yeah I think asking for a PR first is probalby ok, but we can take over wordsmithing if necessary
2026-04-16 16:35:40 <@salimma:fedora.im> the delay is not ideal, definitely
2026-04-16 16:36:13 <@gotmax:matrix.org> 
2026-04-16 16:36:13 <@gotmax:matrix.org> > One think I'd like to note that if this approach does not raise any concerns, I'd like to follow with similar approach with other packages from Cucumber family.
2026-04-16 16:36:13 <@gotmax:matrix.org> I see
2026-04-16 16:36:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so I think we need to just do the general change
2026-04-16 16:36:31 <@gotmax:matrix.org> So it sounds like this isn't only about the one rubygem-cucumber-messages package that's the subject of the ticket
2026-04-16 16:38:58 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh ... Okay, I'm going to comment that we approved the things in the ticket, which includes comment about the other cucumber packages max and I linked to.
2026-04-16 16:39:14 <@james:fedora.im> Then they can open a PR for something more general, if they want.
2026-04-16 16:40:34 <@james:fedora.im> Okay, now the fun one for the last 20m.
2026-04-16 16:40:39 <@salimma:fedora.im> sure, let's do that. so unblock on this one package, but ask them to submit a guideline proposal for the rest
2026-04-16 16:40:43 <@gotmax:matrix.org> On to Forge migration?
2026-04-16 16:40:51 <@james:fedora.im> !topic FPC#1527 - Move to Forge https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1527
2026-04-16 16:42:26 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> sorry, my brains are already leaking out, no energy for bikeshedding here. I'm going to go and get dinner 
2026-04-16 16:42:53 <@salimma:fedora.im> I can't even get dinner for 20 mins and I skipped lunch because errands, so I'm still here :P 
2026-04-16 16:43:21 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> anything that let's us set up permission structure as needed is fine with me
2026-04-16 16:43:26 <@james:fedora.im> I _really_ don't care what colour this bikeshed is ... so is someone other than Fabio Valentini prepared to do the migration?
2026-04-16 16:43:36 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> ryan seems to be under the impression that having one org will be too messy, but didn't explain why
2026-04-16 16:43:57 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> it also sounds as if individual people *can* be added to repos individually 
2026-04-16 16:44:06 <@gotmax:matrix.org> I talked to Ryan about this yesterday and there is a proposal that involves a separate packager-tools org where any packager can create repositories (as long as they are in scope)
2026-04-16 16:44:06 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> so we might not need complicated thing after all 
2026-04-16 16:44:19 <@james:fedora.im> I do like simple things.
2026-04-16 16:44:21 <@gotmax:matrix.org> I'm wondering if having one packaging repo would be better anyways, though
2026-04-16 16:44:34 <@gotmax:matrix.org> Any packager can create repos for tools there and manage their permissions
2026-04-16 16:44:40 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> i still think a single packaging org is a good idea
2026-04-16 16:44:41 <@tibbs:fedora.im> Can we just make "packaging", put "packaging/guidelines" in it, and then worry about the rest of the stuff as it comes?
2026-04-16 16:44:51 <@gotmax:matrix.org> There's an FPC team and a packaging/committee repo for the guidelines
2026-04-16 16:45:14 <@salimma:fedora.im> yeah let's start with that first?
2026-04-16 16:45:17 <@gotmax:matrix.org> There's an FPC team and a packaging/committee (or packaging/guuidelines) repo for the guidelines
2026-04-16 16:45:18 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, I think so ... In fact I was sure that was the leading option when we last spoke about it on matrix.
2026-04-16 16:45:20 <@tibbs:fedora.im> If it turns out that we just can't manage the permissions properly then the tools can live elsewhere.
2026-04-16 16:45:25 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yeah. and assuming "proceed with my original suggestion and add people to additional repositories on a case-by-case basis" actually works that would be fine with me.
2026-04-16 16:46:13 <@gotmax:matrix.org> Does the packaging committee want to be admins for the entire packaging org?
2026-04-16 16:46:42 <@gotmax:matrix.org> The other thing Ryan and I were talking about is no matter how it's organized, each org needs *someone* (or some group) to be the org admin
2026-04-16 16:48:59 <@salimma:fedora.im> when everything is quiet I never know if it's a Matrix issue
2026-04-16 16:49:16 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> ha
2026-04-16 16:49:39 <@gotmax:matrix.org> I support a single packaging org
2026-04-16 16:49:55 <@gotmax:matrix.org> The Forge people just need to know what teams to create so they can actually set it up
2026-04-16 16:50:07 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, it looks like everyone is shrugging and agrees with Fabio Valentini  ... so let's just let him do what he proposed, and press the migrate buttons before the next meeting?
2026-04-16 16:50:16 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, it looks like everyone is shrugging and/or agrees with Fabio Valentini  ... so let's just let him do what he proposed, and press the migrate buttons before the next meeting?
2026-04-16 16:50:18 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> wooo more work for me 
2026-04-16 16:50:38 <@gotmax:matrix.org> I don't mind dealing with the migration
2026-04-16 16:51:25 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> you were right
2026-04-16 16:51:31 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> single packaging org plz :)
2026-04-16 16:51:31 <@gotmax:matrix.org> The first step would probably be to create an FPC FAS group because I don't think that exists at all right now?
2026-04-16 16:51:45 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> gotmax23: your messages starting with "On to Forge migration?" are just arriving here now 
2026-04-16 16:51:59 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> oh man
2026-04-16 16:52:07 <@gotmax:matrix.org> Uh oh
2026-04-16 16:52:08 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I hate out of order message delivery 
2026-04-16 16:52:23 <@gotmax:matrix.org> That message was 10 minutes ago
2026-04-16 16:52:43 <@james:fedora.im> I assume all of max's messages are in order, just they all arrived at once 10m late :(
2026-04-16 16:52:57 <@salimma:fedora.im> this is why I only use my fedora.im account - and I never encourage anyone to move to Matrix anymore :P 
2026-04-16 16:54:00 <@james:fedora.im> Other servers aren't perfect, but matrix esp. seems much more prone to delays.
2026-04-16 16:55:12 <@tibbs:fedora.im> So, uh, IRC was nice.
2026-04-16 16:55:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I was at least not responding because I was trying to figure out lunch
2026-04-16 16:55:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Max's messages were not late for me :)
2026-04-16 16:55:55 <@james:fedora.im> Anyway ... did you want gotmax to do this, or you do it? Maybe give the job to him while we can't see his replies quickly? ;)
2026-04-16 16:56:15 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I'm fine with both 
2026-04-16 16:56:22 <@gotmax23:fedora.im> I can deal with the migration
2026-04-16 16:56:46 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> whatever route we take, ending up at packaging/guidelines would be nice though.
2026-04-16 16:57:35 <@gotmax23:fedora.im> We need a FAS FPC group first
2026-04-16 16:57:49 <@gotmax23:fedora.im> And then a decision on who wants to admin the packaging org
2026-04-16 16:58:00 <@james:fedora.im> Okay ... I think we are agreed that gotmax23 will paint the shed in the next couple of weeks, and we mostly know what colour he'll do it in?
2026-04-16 16:58:16 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> i suspect ryan will want the adming group to be `forge-packaging-owners`, and we can just use that as the fpc group
2026-04-16 16:58:17 <@james:fedora.im> AIUI once we have the FAS group then that can be the admin?
2026-04-16 16:58:37 <@gotmax23:fedora.im> Yes, that will work
2026-04-16 16:58:51 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> the other migrations i've seen they prefer to create groups in that format, not use existing groups
2026-04-16 16:59:47 <@gotmax23:fedora.im> All the forge-* groups inherit from other groups
2026-04-16 17:00:00 <@gotmax23:fedora.im> So we'd need to create an FPC group I think
2026-04-16 17:00:30 <@gotmax23:fedora.im> Can we call it `packaging-committee` in FAS and make James the sponsor?
2026-04-16 17:00:42 <@gotmax23:fedora.im> And then the forge-packaging-owners can inherit from that
2026-04-16 17:00:52 <@james:fedora.im> There's already: https://accounts.fedoraproject.org/group/packaging-committee/
2026-04-16 17:00:57 <@gotmax23:fedora.im> Derp
2026-04-16 17:00:59 <@tibbs:fedora.im> It seems as if this should be so simple and yet....
2026-04-16 17:01:01 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> i don't think we have group inheritance in fas
2026-04-16 17:01:26 <@james:fedora.im> And both tibbs and I are the sponsors.
2026-04-16 17:01:39 <@gotmax23:fedora.im> Okay, ignore me. I did not realize that already existed...
2026-04-16 17:02:03 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> not in FAS, but in ipsilon 
2026-04-16 17:02:14 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> so behind the scenes, groups can contain other groups.
2026-04-16 17:02:37 <@gotmax23:fedora.im> Can someone add me to that and then I'll request the packaging org with that group as the admin?
2026-04-16 17:02:49 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I am also happy to work on this if others are out of bandwidth.
2026-04-16 17:03:15 <@gotmax23:fedora.im> And I guess request a separate team that allows packager members to create new repositories in the org but gives no other permissions
2026-04-16 17:04:48 <@james:fedora.im> Done ... and added Conan Kudo 🤢 too ... and removing very old members.
2026-04-16 17:06:00 <@james:fedora.im> Okay, I'm going to end now ... as we're 5m over.
2026-04-16 17:06:17 <@gotmax23:fedora.im> Sounds good. Thanks for chairing!
2026-04-16 17:06:44 <@james:fedora.im> !endmeeting