#meeting:fedoraproject.org log

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:00:08

!startmeeting FESCO (2024-07-30)

<@meetbot:fedora.im>

17:00:09

Meeting started at 2024-07-30 17:00:08 UTC

<@meetbot:fedora.im>

17:00:09

The Meeting name is 'FESCO (2024-07-30)'

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:00:12

!meetingname fesco

<@meetbot:fedora.im>

17:00:12

The Meeting Name is now fesco

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:00:18

!topic Init Process

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:00:18

Chairs: @conan_kudo:matrix.org, @ngompa:fedora.im, @nirik:matrix.scrye.com, @humaton:fedora.im, @zbyszek:fedora.im, @sgallagh:fedora.im, @jistone:fedora.im, @dcantrell:fedora.im, @decathorpe:fedora.im, @salimma:fedora.im

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:00:29

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

17:00:30

Stephen Gallagher (sgallagh) - he / him / his

<@zbyszek:fedora.im>

17:00:46

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

17:00:47

Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek (zbyszek)

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:01:12

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

17:01:14

Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his

<@decathorpe:fedora.im>

17:01:19

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

17:01:20

Fabio Valentini (decathorpe) - he / him / his

<@jistone:fedora.im>

17:01:20

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

17:01:22

Josh Stone (jistone) - he / him / his

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

17:01:45

morning (I am here, but trying to fix signing being broken)

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:01:56

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

17:01:58

Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:02:11

and we have a quorum

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:02:32

I count 7 out of 10

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:02:44

should we start right away or give it 2 more minutes?

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:03:02

I count 8 out of 9

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:03:03

I count 8

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:03:10

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:03:13

since nirik is here but did not do !hi

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:03:29

and yeah we only have 9 members I guess :P. who's ... David is missing

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:03:37

my math coprocessor is not working properly after 7pm

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:03:56

486 SX / 487 DX huh ;)

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:04:02

I have one procedural question

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:04:08

386 SX

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:04:12

was not sure about the follow up section in the meeting

<@jistone:fedora.im>

17:04:42

(Neal is listed twice in the Chairs)

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:05:26

so should I include tickets that we asked for change in the change and the requester changed it

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:05:28

but the 486 is the one where the SX is a DX with a disabled FPU, right? so you pay double the electricity to then get a 487)

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:05:34

is that a thing I should include in the meeting?

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:05:34

but the 486 is the one where the SX is a DX with a disabled FPU, right? (so you pay double the electricity to then get a 487)

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:05:48

better than when I was listed ~6 times with all my IRC nicks :P

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:05:49

or is vote in the ticket enough?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:06:18

followups are for any unresolved tickets we discussed in a previous meeting

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:06:21

Unless someone tagged it as `meeting` or voted -1, I think it's fine

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:06:23

CMIIW, we go through the items in the order as in the meeting agenda sent out? so previous issues that need follow ups go first then new items

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:07:30

CMIIW?

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:07:43

correct me if I'm wrong

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:07:43

"Correct Me if I'm Wrong"

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:07:50

ok there was no -1 on that ticket so lets start with the new business

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:07:54

Ah, okay

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:07:59

But yeah, please don't abbreviate things without previously explaining them :)

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:08:04

(At least in recorded meetings)

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:08:22

!topic #3252 Change: Default podman created images to zstd:chunked

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:08:23

!fesco 3252

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

17:08:24

● **Last Updated:** a week ago

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

17:08:24

**fesco #3252** (https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3252):**Change: Default podman created images to zstd:chunked**

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

17:08:24

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

17:08:24

● **Opened:** a week ago by amoloney

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

17:08:24

● **Assignee:** dwalsh

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

17:09:06

I'm a bit confused on this one... sounds like some folks don't think it matters much right now?

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:09:31

My impression was that it might be actively problematic in some situations

<@jistone:fedora.im>

17:09:48

for external old Dockers -- could we keep our published base images in gzip while changing the local default?

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:09:51

I asked folks to join us, but they didn't confirm :-(

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:10:02

my understanding is that both formats would be produced

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:10:10

also, the containers SIG doesn't exist AFAIK

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:10:38

as far as I knew, it's been defunct for a few years now

<@jistone:fedora.im>

17:10:43

> It is not possible to directly push container images with both compression formats.

<@zbyszek:fedora.im>

17:11:03

I think that to change the default should be OK.

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

17:11:10

I am not sure we should be too concerned with really old docker versions....

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:11:35

well, Docker < 2023 is a little too painful

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:11:59

Docker in every Debian release in production except the absolute latest (Debian 12) would fail?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:12:30

oh, nope would fail in Debian 12 too

<@jistone:fedora.im>

17:12:42

all but the latest Ubuntu LTS too

<@jistone:fedora.im>

17:12:54

(assuming that one did update!)

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:13:15

then we definitely can't do this if we can't push both formats into a container registry

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:13:23

well is distribution docker really the way people deploye docker?

<@jistone:fedora.im>

17:13:45

GitHub's `ubuntu-latest` is still 22.04

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

17:13:47

well, and how many people didn't switch to podman? but ok...

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:13:50

That is not the point. The point is that fully supported default tooling in popular Linux distributions _can't read our images_.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:14:13

That would be a very bad outcome, especially since the world is mostly Debian/Ubuntu based these days.

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:14:28

Colin Walters: We're discussing the zstd:chunked Change

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:14:44

My impression was that you had reservations about doing this.

<@walters:fedora.im>

17:14:53

correct

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:16:11

Right now, I think FESCo is agreeing with you, but I wanted to check if there was a different timeframe on which we could consider enacting it

<@walters:fedora.im>

17:16:17

I put those reservations somewhere, but I can't find it

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:16:32

Some at least were in Discourse and a ticket linked from there

<@walters:fedora.im>

17:17:15

Well, what I think still makes sense is https://github.com/containers/buildah/issues/5586 which completely changes how this would roll out, it becomes a per-image thing instead of a "what version of podman you have on disk" thing

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:17:22

I had originally approved it on the misconception that both formats can exist in parallel. But if that's not the case, we can't do this until old Docker versions are flushed out of the support matrix for common Linux distributions.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:17:38

I had originally voted for it on the misconception that both formats can exist in parallel. But if that's not the case, we can't do this until old Docker versions are flushed out of the support matrix for common Linux distributions.

<@zbyszek:fedora.im>

17:18:15

!link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/switch-fedora-container-images-to-support-zstd-chunked-format-by-default/123712/25

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:18:28

Colin Walters: Even with that, I think it's problematic if the base images we produce can't be read by some distributions' docker engines

<@walters:fedora.im>

17:19:04

Yes I agree, I actually don't think it generally makes sense to switch the default base images soon vs allowing people to opt-in

<@jistone:fedora.im>

17:19:28

Since I mentioned GitHub Actions -- it looks like they do have fairly new Docker there, 26.1.3

<@walters:fedora.im>

17:20:00

yeah, though as far as GHA, I've changed various pipelines to opt in to https://github.com/actions/runner-images/issues/9848

<@walters:fedora.im>

17:20:46

anyways though I think we should reject the change as is

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:21:18

Ok it seems that we are mostly in agreement that we should not switch to default

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:21:25

lets vote

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:21:33

-1 to the change

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:21:46

Proposal: Change is rejected due to insufficient support for the feature among other distributions of container engines.

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:22:15

+1 to the proposal

<@jistone:fedora.im>

17:22:17

uh, double negative? -1 to change, +1 to proposed rejection...

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:22:34

Stephen Gallagher: +1

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

17:22:50

Stephen Gallagher: +1

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:23:03

do we know which was the first version of Docker to support it?

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:23:14

Josh Stone: Yeah, maybe we should vote against the change, then !info the reasoning instead

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:23:17

Sorry for the confusion

<@zbyszek:fedora.im>

17:23:35

I'll vote +0, because I don't understand all the details here.

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:25:10

I am ok with double negatives

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:25:12

voting +1 for the proposal to reject

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:25:14

Just to be clear, I'm -1 to the Change (as implied by my proposal)

<@zbyszek:fedora.im>

17:25:35

I'm not ok with not allowing double negatives, fwiw, iykwim.

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:26:14

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:26:16

TMA-2KTO

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:26:18

I count 7 votes +6

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:27:25

!agreed Change is rejected due to insufficient support for the feature among other distributions of container engines. (+6, 1, -0)

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:28:17

that was the only ticket with meeting tag

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:29:13

!topic Next week's chair

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:29:23

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:29:25

my shortest meeting ever, wow

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:29:27

next week is flock

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:29:29

next meeting is two weeks from now right

<@zbyszek:fedora.im>

17:29:32

I'll miss the meeting next week because I'll be travelling to Flock.

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:30:08

We loosely discussed the possibility of having a session during the FESCo meeting at Flock

<@jistone:fedora.im>

17:30:09

I'll be out next week too

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:30:43

Since we discussed it, livestreaming it has become an option. Does that change things?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:31:08

yeah

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:31:21

it'd be fun to do it that way

<@zbyszek:fedora.im>

17:31:24

Ah, right. So I _will_ be at the next meeting.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:31:50

we'll have a camera too so people can see us

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:32:24

Will we have quorum at flock?

<@jistone:fedora.im>

17:32:25

I'll be at Scout camp, so completely absent regardless

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:32:47

Show of hands, who will be there? I will.

<@zbyszek:fedora.im>

17:32:55

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:32:56

checking my flight

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:32:59

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:33:12

oh at flock right, not at the meeting this time next week?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:33:23

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:33:24

Correct, the FESCo session at Flock on the first day

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:33:31

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

17:33:33

I will be there.

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

17:33:44

I still don't think we should do a normal meeting tho. ;)

<@zbyszek:fedora.im>

17:33:45

!link https://cfp.fedoraproject.org/flock-2024/talk/9VEHJX/

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:34:10

nirik: It definitely won't be normal, but if we have meeting topics, we can discuss them

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:34:39

yeah if there is a topic like the docker images

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:34:52

it might be interesting experience

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:34:57

By my count, we'll at least have quorum.

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

17:35:52

If there's no questions/discussion items from the audience, sure.

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:36:20

ok but who will host the next online meeting?

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:36:48

that is 13.8

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:37:26

I will be traveling back on the 12th, so I can't get the agenda out early. I can chair the 13th if someone else wants to prep the agenda, though

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:37:31

well, Michel Lind 🎩 and I will be traveling to DevConf.US on August 13, so we can't

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:37:46

yeah I will be traveling back to EU

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:37:46

and I just chaired a previous meeting anyway so double no

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:37:55

actually wait

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:38:00

my train is at 5 pm

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:38:06

so I can make the meeting

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:38:09

Sounds like we may not have quorum anyway.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:38:16

but I'd rather someone else chair it if the meeting happens

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:38:41

I actually have no idea what I'm doing during the day of the 13th, so I definitely can't plan on it

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:38:51

I'll be _somewhere_ in NYC

<@jistone:fedora.im>

17:39:00

I can chair on the 13th

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:39:05

whether that's somewhere that I can pull out my laptop is a great question I have no answer to

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:39:23

In the event that we don't have a meeting on the 13th, I'll volunteer in advance to take the 20th

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:39:36

!action Josh Stone will chair next meeting

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:39:54

!topic Open Floor

<@jistone:fedora.im>

17:40:13

!info next formal meeting will be on August 13th

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:40:37

that reminds me - time to buy a gavel

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:40:59

yup

<@zbyszek:fedora.im>

17:41:20

I have something for open floor.

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:41:52

go on please

<@zbyszek:fedora.im>

17:43:22

The list of tickets in the agenda that were approved included 3 tickets with not enough votes and not enough time.

<@zbyszek:fedora.im>

17:44:04

I.e. they were opened ~yesterday and has +2, but we require a week and +3, or two weeks and +1.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:44:37

I think that was just a mistake

<@jistone:fedora.im>

17:44:41

all three of those are currently +4, but I suppose that's just agenda timing

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:45:00

Yeah, that sounds like a mistake. Let's issue a retraction.

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:45:38

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:46:14

Good catch, by the way zbyszek

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:46:21

ok so I mieread the lines in the template

<@zbyszek:fedora.im>

17:46:27

https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fesco/#ticket-votes

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:46:33

oh folks, check this out https://www.amazon.com/Lego-71000-9-Minifigure-Judge/dp/B00AWJ6T3Q/ref=sr_1_1?crid=80MOGLPKQ5P8&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.AzgUbYIF0xE1ddSczzFfVONZ_mz2MT22gmTZUyQRedZpF9SUG36QNQpwHdgE7BAmeKeERWqHmbwvsRlql4pOjH507igNvBDNehUUovS066QvPJv6VY5BVpU2lGLKm3fk5ktY1QeS2lY8zMLkQ4YyVgW6is_QP24ielsXUtXVvWsVjDf0YZZS_A72Hvd2dyOkFZYma7-v6ZUPgFxficNSjaldBAMb9FOHInNjLgLmhrUBOW00TBDDRknUo97e-GqfNyxTgnMaNJ9o_cO0gpzlfswTkCj4DAfAclgrpX8FnUY.-fpNtM9PEKEBiJ5oTwBIBGY7UTREyUAd9vAthoSYvG0&dib_tag=se&keywords=gavel+lego&qid=1722361571&sprefix=gavel+lego%2Caps%2C124&sr=8-1

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:46:37

I'm so getting this

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:46:38

I thought that is supposed to be list of tickets that require votes in tickets

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:47:07

but now I am reading that its supposed to be the tickets that got approved in the tickets voting

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:47:11

jednorozec: No, it's the list of tickets that were *decided* in the tickets since the last meeting

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:47:18

No, it's the section for stuff that has been approved and has the pending announcement tag.

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:47:23

my bad

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:47:29

No worries.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

17:47:38

we learn on the job :)

<@sgallagh:fedora.im>

17:47:48

Mistakes happen

<@zbyszek:fedora.im>

17:47:50

OK, so please clarify that in the summary.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

17:48:09

add an info statement about it

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:48:20

just doing so

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:49:35

!info Agenda for today's meeting was filled incorrectly, an updated list of approved tickets will be sent with the meeting summary.

<@zbyszek:fedora.im>

17:50:24

jednorozec: thanks!

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:51:58

ok, I will keep the meeting opened for few more minutes. If there is something to discuss fell free to do it now. Or later in other channels.

<@humaton:fedora.im>

17:54:25

!endmeeting