2024-07-30 17:00:08 <@humaton:fedora.im> !startmeeting FESCO (2024-07-30)
2024-07-30 17:00:09 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2024-07-30 17:00:08 UTC
2024-07-30 17:00:09 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'FESCO (2024-07-30)'
2024-07-30 17:00:12 <@humaton:fedora.im> !meetingname fesco
2024-07-30 17:00:12 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting Name is now fesco
2024-07-30 17:00:18 <@humaton:fedora.im> !topic Init Process
2024-07-30 17:00:18 <@humaton:fedora.im> Chairs: @conan_kudo:matrix.org, @ngompa:fedora.im, @nirik:matrix.scrye.com, @humaton:fedora.im, @zbyszek:fedora.im, @sgallagh:fedora.im, @jistone:fedora.im, @dcantrell:fedora.im, @decathorpe:fedora.im, @salimma:fedora.im
2024-07-30 17:00:29 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-30 17:00:30 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Stephen Gallagher (sgallagh) - he / him / his
2024-07-30 17:00:46 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-30 17:00:47 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek (zbyszek)
2024-07-30 17:01:12 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2024-07-30 17:01:14 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2024-07-30 17:01:19 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-30 17:01:20 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Fabio Valentini (decathorpe) - he / him / his
2024-07-30 17:01:20 <@jistone:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-30 17:01:22 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Josh Stone (jistone) - he / him / his
2024-07-30 17:01:45 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> morning (I am here, but trying to fix signing being broken)
2024-07-30 17:01:56 <@salimma:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-30 17:01:58 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
2024-07-30 17:02:11 <@humaton:fedora.im> and we have a quorum 
2024-07-30 17:02:32 <@humaton:fedora.im> I count 7 out of 10
2024-07-30 17:02:44 <@humaton:fedora.im> should we start right away or give it 2 more minutes?
2024-07-30 17:03:02 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I count 8 out of 9
2024-07-30 17:03:03 <@salimma:fedora.im> I count 8
2024-07-30 17:03:10 <@humaton:fedora.im> oh
2024-07-30 17:03:13 <@salimma:fedora.im> since nirik is here but did not do !hi
2024-07-30 17:03:29 <@salimma:fedora.im> and yeah we only have 9 members I guess :P. who's ... David is missing
2024-07-30 17:03:37 <@humaton:fedora.im> my math coprocessor is not working properly after 7pm
2024-07-30 17:03:56 <@salimma:fedora.im> 486 SX / 487 DX huh ;)
2024-07-30 17:04:02 <@humaton:fedora.im> I have one procedural question
2024-07-30 17:04:08 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 386 SX
2024-07-30 17:04:12 <@humaton:fedora.im> was not sure about the follow up section in the meeting
2024-07-30 17:04:42 <@jistone:fedora.im> (Neal is listed twice in the Chairs)
2024-07-30 17:05:26 <@humaton:fedora.im> so should I include tickets that we asked for change in the change and the requester changed it
2024-07-30 17:05:28 <@salimma:fedora.im> but the 486 is the one where the SX is a DX with a disabled FPU, right? so you pay double the electricity to then get a 487)
2024-07-30 17:05:34 <@humaton:fedora.im> is  that a thing I should include in the meeting?
2024-07-30 17:05:34 <@salimma:fedora.im> but the 486 is the one where the SX is a DX with a disabled FPU, right? (so you pay double the electricity to then get a 487)
2024-07-30 17:05:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> better than when I was listed ~6 times with all my IRC nicks :P
2024-07-30 17:05:49 <@humaton:fedora.im> or is vote in the ticket enough?
2024-07-30 17:06:18 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> followups are for any unresolved tickets we discussed in a previous meeting
2024-07-30 17:06:21 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Unless someone tagged it as `meeting` or voted -1, I think it's fine
2024-07-30 17:06:23 <@salimma:fedora.im> CMIIW, we go through the items in the order as in the meeting agenda sent out? so previous issues that need follow ups go first then new items
2024-07-30 17:07:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> CMIIW?
2024-07-30 17:07:43 <@salimma:fedora.im> correct me if I'm wrong
2024-07-30 17:07:43 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> "Correct Me if I'm Wrong"
2024-07-30 17:07:50 <@humaton:fedora.im> ok there was no -1 on that ticket so lets start with the new business
2024-07-30 17:07:54 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Ah, okay
2024-07-30 17:07:59 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> But yeah, please don't abbreviate things without previously explaining them :)
2024-07-30 17:08:04 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> (At least in recorded meetings)
2024-07-30 17:08:22 <@humaton:fedora.im> !topic #3252 Change: Default podman created images to zstd:chunked
2024-07-30 17:08:23 <@humaton:fedora.im> !fesco 3252
2024-07-30 17:08:24 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Last Updated:** a week ago
2024-07-30 17:08:24 <@zodbot:fedora.im> **fesco #3252** (https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3252):**Change: Default podman created images to zstd:chunked**
2024-07-30 17:08:24 <@zodbot:fedora.im> 
2024-07-30 17:08:24 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Opened:** a week ago by amoloney
2024-07-30 17:08:24 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Assignee:** dwalsh
2024-07-30 17:09:06 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I'm a bit confused on this one... sounds like some folks don't think it matters much right now?
2024-07-30 17:09:31 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> My impression was that it might be actively problematic in some situations
2024-07-30 17:09:48 <@jistone:fedora.im> for external old Dockers -- could we keep our published base images in gzip while changing the local default?
2024-07-30 17:09:51 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I asked folks to join us, but they didn't confirm :-(
2024-07-30 17:10:02 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> my understanding is that both formats would be produced
2024-07-30 17:10:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> also, the containers SIG doesn't exist AFAIK
2024-07-30 17:10:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> as far as I knew, it's been defunct for a few years now
2024-07-30 17:10:43 <@jistone:fedora.im> > It is not possible to directly push container images with both compression formats.
2024-07-30 17:11:03 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I think that to change the default should be OK.
2024-07-30 17:11:10 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I am not sure we should be too concerned with really old docker versions....
2024-07-30 17:11:35 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well, Docker < 2023 is a little too painful
2024-07-30 17:11:59 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Docker in every Debian release in production except the absolute latest (Debian 12) would fail?
2024-07-30 17:12:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> oh, nope would fail in Debian 12 too
2024-07-30 17:12:42 <@jistone:fedora.im> all but the latest Ubuntu LTS too
2024-07-30 17:12:54 <@jistone:fedora.im> (assuming that one did update!)
2024-07-30 17:13:15 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> then we definitely can't do this if we can't push both formats into a container registry
2024-07-30 17:13:23 <@humaton:fedora.im> well is distribution docker really the way people deploye docker?
2024-07-30 17:13:45 <@jistone:fedora.im> GitHub's `ubuntu-latest` is still 22.04
2024-07-30 17:13:47 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> well, and how many people didn't switch to podman? but ok...
2024-07-30 17:13:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> That is not the point. The point is that fully supported default tooling in popular Linux distributions _can't read our images_.
2024-07-30 17:14:13 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> That would be a very bad outcome, especially since the world is mostly Debian/Ubuntu based these days.
2024-07-30 17:14:28 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Colin Walters: We're discussing the zstd:chunked Change
2024-07-30 17:14:44 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> My impression was that you had reservations about doing this.
2024-07-30 17:14:53 <@walters:fedora.im> correct
2024-07-30 17:16:11 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Right now, I think FESCo is agreeing with you, but I wanted to check if there was a different timeframe on which we could consider enacting it
2024-07-30 17:16:17 <@walters:fedora.im> I put those reservations somewhere, but I can't find it
2024-07-30 17:16:32 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Some at least were in Discourse and a ticket linked from there
2024-07-30 17:17:15 <@walters:fedora.im> Well, what I think still makes sense is https://github.com/containers/buildah/issues/5586 which completely changes how this would roll out, it becomes a per-image thing instead of a "what version of podman you have on disk" thing
2024-07-30 17:17:22 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I had originally approved it on the misconception that both formats can exist in parallel. But if that's not the case, we can't do this until old Docker versions are flushed out of the support matrix for common Linux distributions.
2024-07-30 17:17:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I had originally voted for it on the misconception that both formats can exist in parallel. But if that's not the case, we can't do this until old Docker versions are flushed out of the support matrix for common Linux distributions.
2024-07-30 17:18:15 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/switch-fedora-container-images-to-support-zstd-chunked-format-by-default/123712/25
2024-07-30 17:18:28 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Colin Walters: Even with that, I think it's problematic if the base images we produce can't be read by some distributions' docker engines
2024-07-30 17:19:04 <@walters:fedora.im> Yes I agree, I actually don't think it generally makes sense to switch the default base images soon vs allowing people to opt-in
2024-07-30 17:19:28 <@jistone:fedora.im> Since I mentioned GitHub Actions -- it looks like they do have fairly new Docker there, 26.1.3
2024-07-30 17:20:00 <@walters:fedora.im> yeah, though as far as GHA, I've changed various pipelines to opt in to https://github.com/actions/runner-images/issues/9848 
2024-07-30 17:20:46 <@walters:fedora.im> anyways though I think we should reject the change as is
2024-07-30 17:21:18 <@humaton:fedora.im> Ok it seems that we are mostly in agreement that we should not switch to default
2024-07-30 17:21:25 <@humaton:fedora.im> lets vote
2024-07-30 17:21:33 <@salimma:fedora.im> -1 to the change
2024-07-30 17:21:46 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Proposal: Change is rejected due to insufficient support for the feature among other distributions of container engines.
2024-07-30 17:22:15 <@humaton:fedora.im> +1 to the proposal
2024-07-30 17:22:17 <@jistone:fedora.im> uh, double negative? -1 to change, +1 to proposed rejection...
2024-07-30 17:22:34 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Stephen Gallagher: +1
2024-07-30 17:22:50 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> Stephen Gallagher: +1
2024-07-30 17:23:03 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> do we know which was the first version of Docker to support it?
2024-07-30 17:23:14 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Josh Stone: Yeah, maybe we should vote against the change, then !info the reasoning instead
2024-07-30 17:23:17 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Sorry for the confusion
2024-07-30 17:23:35 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I'll vote +0, because I don't understand all the details here. 
2024-07-30 17:25:10 <@humaton:fedora.im> I am ok with double negatives
2024-07-30 17:25:12 <@salimma:fedora.im> voting +1 for the proposal to reject
2024-07-30 17:25:14 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Just to be clear, I'm -1 to the Change (as implied by my proposal)
2024-07-30 17:25:35 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I'm not ok with not allowing double negatives, fwiw, iykwim.
2024-07-30 17:26:14 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Ow
2024-07-30 17:26:16 <@salimma:fedora.im> TMA-2KTO
2024-07-30 17:26:18 <@humaton:fedora.im> I count 7 votes +6 
2024-07-30 17:27:25 <@humaton:fedora.im> !agreed  Change is rejected due to insufficient support for the feature among other distributions of container engines. (+6, 1, -0)
2024-07-30 17:28:17 <@humaton:fedora.im> that was the only ticket with meeting tag
2024-07-30 17:29:13 <@humaton:fedora.im> !topic Next week's chair
2024-07-30 17:29:23 <@humaton:fedora.im> oh
2024-07-30 17:29:25 <@salimma:fedora.im> my shortest meeting ever, wow
2024-07-30 17:29:27 <@humaton:fedora.im> next week is flock
2024-07-30 17:29:29 <@salimma:fedora.im> next meeting is two weeks from now right
2024-07-30 17:29:32 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I'll miss the meeting next week because I'll be travelling to Flock.
2024-07-30 17:30:08 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> We loosely discussed the possibility of having a session during the FESCo meeting at Flock
2024-07-30 17:30:09 <@jistone:fedora.im> I'll be out next week too
2024-07-30 17:30:43 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Since we discussed it, livestreaming it has become an option. Does that change things?
2024-07-30 17:31:08 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah
2024-07-30 17:31:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it'd be fun to do it that way
2024-07-30 17:31:24 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Ah, right. So I _will_ be at the next meeting.
2024-07-30 17:31:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we'll have a camera too so people can see us
2024-07-30 17:32:24 <@humaton:fedora.im> Will we have quorum at flock?
2024-07-30 17:32:25 <@jistone:fedora.im> I'll be at Scout camp, so completely absent regardless
2024-07-30 17:32:47 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Show of hands, who will be there? I will.
2024-07-30 17:32:55 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> o/
2024-07-30 17:32:56 <@salimma:fedora.im> checking my flight
2024-07-30 17:32:59 <@humaton:fedora.im> o/
2024-07-30 17:33:12 <@salimma:fedora.im> oh at flock right, not at the meeting this time next week?
2024-07-30 17:33:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> o/
2024-07-30 17:33:24 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Correct, the FESCo session at Flock on the first day
2024-07-30 17:33:31 <@salimma:fedora.im> o/
2024-07-30 17:33:33 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I will be there.
2024-07-30 17:33:44 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I still don't think we should do a normal meeting tho. ;)
2024-07-30 17:33:45 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !link https://cfp.fedoraproject.org/flock-2024/talk/9VEHJX/
2024-07-30 17:34:10 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> nirik: It definitely won't be normal, but if we have meeting topics, we can discuss them
2024-07-30 17:34:39 <@humaton:fedora.im> yeah if there is a topic like the docker images
2024-07-30 17:34:52 <@humaton:fedora.im> it might be interesting experience
2024-07-30 17:34:57 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> By my count, we'll at least have quorum.
2024-07-30 17:35:52 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> If there's no questions/discussion items from the audience, sure.
2024-07-30 17:36:20 <@humaton:fedora.im> ok but who will host the next online meeting?
2024-07-30 17:36:48 <@humaton:fedora.im> that is 13.8 
2024-07-30 17:37:26 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I will be traveling back on the 12th, so I can't get the agenda out early. I can chair the 13th if someone else wants to prep the agenda, though
2024-07-30 17:37:31 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well, Michel Lind 🎩 and I will be traveling to DevConf.US on August 13, so we can't
2024-07-30 17:37:46 <@humaton:fedora.im> yeah I will be traveling back to EU 
2024-07-30 17:37:46 <@salimma:fedora.im> and I just chaired a previous meeting anyway so double no
2024-07-30 17:37:55 <@salimma:fedora.im> actually wait
2024-07-30 17:38:00 <@salimma:fedora.im> my train is at 5 pm
2024-07-30 17:38:06 <@salimma:fedora.im> so I can make the meeting
2024-07-30 17:38:09 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Sounds like we may not have quorum anyway.
2024-07-30 17:38:16 <@salimma:fedora.im> but I'd rather someone else chair it if the meeting happens
2024-07-30 17:38:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I actually have no idea what I'm doing during the day of the 13th, so I definitely can't plan on it
2024-07-30 17:38:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'll be _somewhere_ in NYC
2024-07-30 17:39:00 <@jistone:fedora.im> I can chair on the 13th
2024-07-30 17:39:05 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> whether that's somewhere that I can pull out my laptop is a great question I have no answer to
2024-07-30 17:39:23 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> In the event that we don't have a meeting on the 13th, I'll volunteer in advance to take the 20th
2024-07-30 17:39:36 <@humaton:fedora.im> !action Josh Stone  will chair next meeting 
2024-07-30 17:39:54 <@humaton:fedora.im> !topic Open Floor
2024-07-30 17:40:13 <@jistone:fedora.im> !info next formal meeting will be on August 13th
2024-07-30 17:40:37 <@salimma:fedora.im> that reminds me - time to buy a gavel
2024-07-30 17:40:59 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yup
2024-07-30 17:41:20 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I have something for open floor.
2024-07-30 17:41:52 <@humaton:fedora.im> go on please
2024-07-30 17:43:22 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> The list of tickets in the agenda that were approved included 3 tickets with not enough votes and not enough time.
2024-07-30 17:44:04 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I.e. they were opened ~yesterday and has +2, but we require a week and +3, or two weeks and +1.
2024-07-30 17:44:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I think that was just a mistake
2024-07-30 17:44:41 <@jistone:fedora.im> all three of those are currently +4, but I suppose that's just agenda timing
2024-07-30 17:45:00 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Yeah, that sounds like a mistake. Let's issue a retraction.
2024-07-30 17:45:38 <@humaton:fedora.im> oh
2024-07-30 17:46:14 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Good catch, by the way zbyszek 
2024-07-30 17:46:21 <@humaton:fedora.im> ok so I mieread the lines in the template
2024-07-30 17:46:27 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fesco/#ticket-votes
2024-07-30 17:46:33 <@salimma:fedora.im> oh folks, check this out https://www.amazon.com/Lego-71000-9-Minifigure-Judge/dp/B00AWJ6T3Q/ref=sr_1_1?crid=80MOGLPKQ5P8&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.AzgUbYIF0xE1ddSczzFfVONZ_mz2MT22gmTZUyQRedZpF9SUG36QNQpwHdgE7BAmeKeERWqHmbwvsRlql4pOjH507igNvBDNehUUovS066QvPJv6VY5BVpU2lGLKm3fk5ktY1QeS2lY8zMLkQ4YyVgW6is_QP24ielsXUtXVvWsVjDf0YZZS_A72Hvd2dyOkFZYma7-v6ZUPgFxficNSjaldBAMb9FOHInNjLgLmhrUBOW00TBDDRknUo97e-GqfNyxTgnMaNJ9o_cO0gpzlfswTkCj4DAfAclgrpX8FnUY.-fpNtM9PEKEBiJ5oTwBIBGY7UTREyUAd9vAthoSYvG0&dib_tag=se&keywords=gavel+lego&qid=1722361571&sprefix=gavel+lego%2Caps%2C124&sr=8-1
2024-07-30 17:46:37 <@salimma:fedora.im> I'm so getting this
2024-07-30 17:46:38 <@humaton:fedora.im> I thought that is supposed to be list of tickets that require votes in tickets
2024-07-30 17:47:07 <@humaton:fedora.im> but now I am reading that its supposed to be the tickets that got approved in the tickets voting
2024-07-30 17:47:11 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> jednorozec: No, it's the list of tickets that were *decided* in the tickets since the last meeting
2024-07-30 17:47:18 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> No, it's the section for stuff that has been approved and has the pending announcement tag.
2024-07-30 17:47:23 <@humaton:fedora.im> my bad 
2024-07-30 17:47:29 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> No worries.
2024-07-30 17:47:38 <@salimma:fedora.im> we learn on the job :)
2024-07-30 17:47:48 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Mistakes happen
2024-07-30 17:47:50 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> OK, so please clarify that in the summary.
2024-07-30 17:48:09 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> add an info statement about it
2024-07-30 17:48:20 <@humaton:fedora.im> just doing so
2024-07-30 17:49:35 <@humaton:fedora.im> !info Agenda for today's meeting was filled incorrectly, an updated list of approved tickets will be sent with the meeting summary.
2024-07-30 17:50:24 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> jednorozec: thanks!
2024-07-30 17:51:58 <@humaton:fedora.im> ok, I will keep the meeting opened for few more minutes. If there is something to discuss fell free to do it now. Or later in other channels.
2024-07-30 17:54:25 <@humaton:fedora.im> !endmeeting