2024-08-30 16:00:20 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !startmeeting ELN SIG (2024-08-30)
2024-08-30 16:00:22 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2024-08-30 16:00:20 UTC
2024-08-30 16:00:22 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'ELN SIG (2024-08-30)'
2024-08-30 16:00:25 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !meetingname eln
2024-08-30 16:00:26 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting Name is now eln
2024-08-30 16:00:36 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !topic Init Process
2024-08-30 16:00:38 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !hi
2024-08-30 16:00:39 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Stephen Gallagher (sgallagh) - he / him / his
2024-08-30 16:01:04 <@salimma:fedora.im> !hi
2024-08-30 16:01:05 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
2024-08-30 16:01:21 <@davide:cavalca.name> !hi
2024-08-30 16:01:23 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Davide Cavalca (dcavalca) - he / him / his
2024-08-30 16:02:10 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !hi
2024-08-30 16:02:11 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Troy Dawson (tdawson)
2024-08-30 16:02:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2024-08-30 16:02:43 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2024-08-30 16:03:04 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Welcome, folks!
2024-08-30 16:03:08 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !topic Agenda
2024-08-30 16:03:16 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> We have two items currently listed for the agenda:
2024-08-30 16:03:20 <@jrichardson:matrix.org> !hi
2024-08-30 16:03:22 <@zodbot:fedora.im> James Richardson (jrichardson)
2024-08-30 16:03:27 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !info Agenda Item: Status update on composes
2024-08-30 16:04:02 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !info Agenda Item: How to get Fedora packagers more involved with ELN
2024-08-30 16:04:17 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Does anyone else have a topic they want to discuss today?
2024-08-30 16:04:45 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !hi
2024-08-30 16:04:46 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Yaakov Selkowitz (yselkowitz)
2024-08-30 16:04:49 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Also, just as a point of order, we WILL be having a meeting next Friday as well. Today's meeting was shifted due to conflicts.
2024-08-30 16:04:50 <@davide:cavalca.name> did we reach a conclusion from the ELN Extras / EPEL 11 discussion at Flock?
2024-08-30 16:05:09 <@salimma:fedora.im> ^ Davide said it first
2024-08-30 16:05:22 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !info Agenda Item: ELN Extras vs. EPEL 11
2024-08-30 16:06:15 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Alright, let's get started. I'll open with the compose status which is short, then we can decide as a group which of the other topics to hit second.
2024-08-30 16:06:31 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !topic Status update on composes
2024-08-30 16:07:06 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> So, I was *hoping* to be able to share with you that the composes have been successfully migrated off of ODCS today.
2024-08-30 16:07:18 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Unfortunately, I hit a few snags on that front.
2024-08-30 16:07:33 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> However, with the *extremely patient* help of Conan Kudo, I think I'm almost there.
2024-08-30 16:07:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> if we're lucky we'll have it today
2024-08-30 16:07:58 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I have what I hope will be a successful converted compose running right this minute.
2024-08-30 16:08:09 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> With a little luck, we'll know by the end of the meeting if it's solid.
2024-08-30 16:08:52 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !info Fedora ELN cloud and container images have been converted to using Kiwi to generate them and the MR is under review.
2024-08-30 16:08:56 <@zodbot:fedora.im> salimma has already given cookies to sgallagh during the F40 timeframe
2024-08-30 16:09:02 <@zodbot:fedora.im> salimma gave a cookie to ngompa. They now have 137 cookies, 24 of which were obtained in the Fedora 40 release cycle
2024-08-30 16:09:05 <@zodbot:fedora.im> yselkowitz has already given cookies to ngompa during the F40 timeframe
2024-08-30 16:09:08 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/pungi-fedora/pull-request/1324
2024-08-30 16:09:57 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !info Fedora ELN composes are nearly ready to migrate off of ODCS. Work-in-progress merge request is available to review.
2024-08-30 16:10:06 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/pungi-fedora/pull-request/1304
2024-08-30 16:11:08 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I think that's everything I have to say on that score, unless there are questions?
2024-08-30 16:12:07 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> OK, then do we want to discuss EPEL 11 or Fedora Packagers next?
2024-08-30 16:12:15 <@salimma:fedora.im> packagers first I think
2024-08-30 16:12:26 <@salimma:fedora.im> the EPEL thing blew up last time and it might take a long discussion :)
2024-08-30 16:12:47 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Fair point. We can also take that discussion to the EPEL SIG/meeting if needed.
2024-08-30 16:12:59 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I agree, let's do Extas/EPEL11 last.
2024-08-30 16:13:08 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !topic How to get Fedora packagers more involved with ELN
2024-08-30 16:13:27 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: This was your proposed topic, do you want to start it off?
2024-08-30 16:14:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Yeah, so Carl George and I had been talking about this off and on for a while. I think we need to think about a framing for ELN that makes it relevant and useful for Fedora contributors to participate, even if it's just around ELN Extras initially.
2024-08-30 16:15:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Something that came out of that discussion is that I am not sure what workflow each of us use for leveraging ELN information.
2024-08-30 16:15:49 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Mine is kind of basic: I just check it once every few weeks with my workloads and go deal with things when I see them.
2024-08-30 16:16:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I am not even aware if we have fedora-messaging stuff or anything that could make it align more with the interrupt-driven management of Fedora packagers.
2024-08-30 16:17:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I am not even aware if we have fedora-messaging stuff or anything that could make it align more with the interrupt-driven management of Fedora packages.
2024-08-30 16:17:15 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> One point there:
2024-08-30 16:17:34 <@salimma:fedora.im> I have a point after Stephen
2024-08-30 16:17:38 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> One side-effect of the conversion away from ODCS is that the nightly.sh approach DOES send messages and compose diffs.
2024-08-30 16:17:57 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> (You may have seen the accidental compose report that I sent yesterday)
2024-08-30 16:18:07 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Yeah that was awesome, actually.
2024-08-30 16:18:30 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Agreed; though I have needed to patch it to handle the frequency of ELN composes better.
2024-08-30 16:18:44 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> (Sending eight of those per day to the list would be spam, not information)
2024-08-30 16:19:07 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> are we still going to compose that often?
2024-08-30 16:19:20 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I have even thought about coming up with some way that we could run tests in Fedora on images with specific workloads relevant for EPEL (e.g. KDE on CentOS Stream)
2024-08-30 16:19:26 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> yselkowitz: That's an open question to be answered once we get things working
2024-08-30 16:19:42 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Since both Troy Dawson and I do care about this with our CentOS SIGs
2024-08-30 16:20:09 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> yselkowitz: The new composes are also much faster; approximately one hour vs two and a half when using ImageFactory.
2024-08-30 16:20:21 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> nice!
2024-08-30 16:21:03 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Oh yeah, kiwi is _fast_
2024-08-30 16:21:19 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> each image build takes 20^~40% of the time the old ImageFactory builds did
2024-08-30 16:21:20 <@salimma:fedora.im> I like tools that focus on doing one thing well :)
2024-08-30 16:21:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> each image build takes 20%~40% of the time the old ImageFactory builds did
2024-08-30 16:21:38 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Anyway, that's a tangent.
2024-08-30 16:21:54 <@salimma:fedora.im> my point is related I think
2024-08-30 16:22:01 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Could you talk more about how you want to organize tests?
2024-08-30 16:22:11 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Sorry, Michel Lind 🎩. Please go ahead.
2024-08-30 16:22:13 <@salimma:fedora.im> people often get surprised when their package get pulled into ELN as a dependency, so anything we can do to get more visibility helps i guess
2024-08-30 16:22:34 <@salimma:fedora.im> but let's do Stephen's question first
2024-08-30 16:24:18 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: What sort of tests are you envisioning, and how would the results get reported?
2024-08-30 16:24:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> So I was thinking more along the lines of the kind of tests we do in Fedora packages, including so-called "critpath" validation
2024-08-30 16:25:13 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> which includes smoke testing and even running some subset of our integration tests for the package sets
2024-08-30 16:25:39 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm pretty sure we can swing extra resources from AWS through davdunc for this purpose, as it would be highly beneficial and useful to make sure everything actually works when we get to branch time
2024-08-30 16:26:11 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> because I don't want to "steal away" compute resources from Fedora (which is plenty starved as it is)
2024-08-30 16:27:06 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Do you see this as gating package tagging or composes in some way?
2024-08-30 16:27:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> not initially, but maybe down the road, yes
2024-08-30 16:27:45 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> because my thought is that we want to essentially implement Rawhide is Alpha for ELN
2024-08-30 16:28:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> not saying that ELN is alpha, but that we have gates and quality checks that indicate some level of assurance long before we branch
2024-08-30 16:28:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> this can also feed into finally fixing some fundamental quality check issues that we have with EPEL itself
2024-08-30 16:28:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> as ELN is morphing to look more like a split Fedora than a merged one
2024-08-30 16:28:58 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so a lot of the same problems would apply
2024-08-30 16:30:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> context of rawhide is alpha statement: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/NoMoreAlpha
2024-08-30 16:30:32 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/NoMoreAlpha
2024-08-30 16:31:18 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Ah, that makes a bit more sense. I was reading that as Rawhide is "Alpha for ELN". Not "Rawhide is Alpha" for ELN.
2024-08-30 16:31:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> sorry about that :)
2024-08-30 16:31:36 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> No problem. Words is hard.
2024-08-30 16:32:26 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> So as a first pass, what does that look like? OpenQA results for ELN?
2024-08-30 16:32:33 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah
2024-08-30 16:33:08 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I think we may actually have some tests running there, but I don't actually know how to see the results. I don't think they're posted anywhere [that I am subscribed]
2024-08-30 16:33:11 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we can start with the cloud and container images
2024-08-30 16:33:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and then we can engage people for more workloads
2024-08-30 16:33:58 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Maybe start specifically with the container image first, since that's easiest to replicate on personal systesm
2024-08-30 16:34:03 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Maybe start specifically with the container image first, since that's easiest to replicate on personal systems
2024-08-30 16:34:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yup
2024-08-30 16:34:49 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and it's the easiest to add tests for
2024-08-30 16:35:15 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but the ultimate idea is to make it possible for people to take community enterprise validation to the next level
2024-08-30 16:36:17 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Bingo!
2024-08-30 16:36:19 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> (sorry)
2024-08-30 16:36:49 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> But I like where this is going. How do we get there?
2024-08-30 16:38:52 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I've been mentally thinking about it through the KDE workload lens, and I think the first step is getting the standard composes going so that we can at least manually test them
2024-08-30 16:39:15 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> then we can start looking at getting a pool of openqa workers and see if we can just run the same tests Fedora runs
2024-08-30 16:39:17 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and see how that goes
2024-08-30 16:39:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I hesitate to go down the road of Bodhi activation, because Bodhi is... special
2024-08-30 16:40:00 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Bodhi activation in what sense?
2024-08-30 16:40:17 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> We already behave like Rawhide in Bodhi; it's possible to set up blocking tests for stable approbal
2024-08-30 16:40:23 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> We already behave like Rawhide in Bodhi; it's possible to set up blocking tests for stable approval
2024-08-30 16:40:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but we could think about kicking off things like rpminspect and whatnot through it
2024-08-30 16:40:55 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> or other kinds of things like warnings about core crossing to extras in the dep graph
2024-08-30 16:41:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> since ELN Core should not cross into extras land
2024-08-30 16:42:05 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> repoclosure should handle that?
2024-08-30 16:42:08 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> (Side-note: I don't like the phrase "ELN Core", and not just because it sounds like a videogame mid-boss)
2024-08-30 16:42:12 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> lol
2024-08-30 16:43:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it depends on what you're looking for, but yeah mostly
2024-08-30 16:43:38 <@salimma:fedora.im> if we can automate filing a bug against the ELN Extras workload maintainer for packages that should be removed, that'd be great
2024-08-30 16:43:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> indeed
2024-08-30 16:44:02 <@salimma:fedora.im> or even just getting a report that is posted, and the workloads and their owners are tagged
2024-08-30 16:44:07 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Michel Lind 🎩: "should be removed" for what reasons?
2024-08-30 16:44:20 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> ultimately, I want us to start having reports to maintainers about the stuff they care about
2024-08-30 16:44:30 <@salimma:fedora.im> if package P gets added to "ELN Core", it should not be listed in ELN Extras right?
2024-08-30 16:44:44 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> that's complicated
2024-08-30 16:44:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yup
2024-08-30 16:44:48 <@salimma:fedora.im> though... yeah it's tricky
2024-08-30 16:45:08 <@salimma:fedora.im> wearing my company hat I might want to signal "we really need this package, we dont' care if it's in EL or in EPEL"
2024-08-30 16:45:16 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but the point is, I think to make it relevant, we need workflows that align better with Fedora maintainers
2024-08-30 16:45:21 <@salimma:fedora.im> the current yaml does not really let us make that distinction
2024-08-30 16:46:09 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> i'm pretty sure that was a throwback to the old fedora core/extras split, which we've basically reinvented
2024-08-30 16:46:16 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> :D
2024-08-30 16:46:24 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Yes, I'm aware. It still sounds like a videogame enemy :)
2024-08-30 16:46:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well, this is kind of a boss battle :P
2024-08-30 16:48:02 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Just to take a moment to preen: the compose that I kicked off just before this meeting completed [almost] successfully!
2024-08-30 16:48:11 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I'm sorta thinking we're blurring the lines between the two topics, meaning we're really crossing into what would make ELN Extras better for epel11.
2024-08-30 16:48:17 <@zodbot:fedora.im> yselkowitz has already given cookies to sgallagh during the F40 timeframe
2024-08-30 16:48:33 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> All of the important things finished, but it looks like I broke something in the reporting pieces.
2024-08-30 16:48:42 <@zodbot:fedora.im> tdawson gave a cookie to sgallagh. They now have 239 cookies, 14 of which were obtained in the Fedora 40 release cycle
2024-08-30 16:48:45 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well it's also useful to make it more relevant for Fedora maintainers who have packages going into ELN Core
2024-08-30 16:49:01 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Very true
2024-08-30 16:49:15 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I have packages as a Fedora maintainer that go into RHEL, both simple and complex
2024-08-30 16:49:17 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> https://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/compose/eln/latest-Fedora-ELN/
2024-08-30 16:49:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> e.g. redhat-fonts and libseccomp :)
2024-08-30 16:49:38 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I wasn't meaning what I said as a bad thing, I was just saying that getting that sort of thing in place will help Extras
2024-08-30 16:49:53 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I want it to help both, because what we're doing now can't scale
2024-08-30 16:50:27 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> so what are the action items here?
2024-08-30 16:50:54 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'd like Stephen Gallagher to tell me what he thinks it would be
2024-08-30 16:52:36 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Honestly, I think better reporting needs to be the first step. People need to know 1) that their package is part of the ELN or ELN Extras package set and 2) whether it is functional there (FTBFS and FTI are easy first steps, better testing is the necessary follow-in)
2024-08-30 16:52:57 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Honestly, I think better reporting needs to be the first step. People need to know 1) that their package is part of the ELN or ELN Extras package set and 2) whether it is functional there (FTBFS and FTI are easy first steps, better testing is the necessary follow-on)
2024-08-30 16:53:49 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> is there any kind of plan for https://github.com/fedora-eln/eln/issues/194 (cr tracking buildreqs) to get resolved?
2024-08-30 16:53:53 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> The compose delta is probably a good start.
2024-08-30 16:54:23 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Carl George: I'll point you to yselkowitz for that; he's taken ownership of Content Resolver.
2024-08-30 16:55:32 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> right now, PTC
2024-08-30 16:55:39 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Though if I could turn my boss upside down and shake the money from his pockets, I'd love to contract Conan Kudo to help with a major refactor there. He's one of like three people on the planet that knows how to use libsolv :)
2024-08-30 16:56:00 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 😂
2024-08-30 16:56:00 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> PTC?
2024-08-30 16:56:03 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> https://cygwin.com/acronyms/#PTC
2024-08-30 16:57:00 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> For the sake of the meeting record: PTC == "Patches Thoughtfully Considered".
2024-08-30 16:58:58 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> i'm concerned about the viability of starting epel11 early if cr buildreq support is in "patches welcome" mode
2024-08-30 16:59:41 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Well, CR does what it was originally written for.  The problem is that Extras was not on the original manifest.
2024-08-30 17:00:10 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> I do believe it's possible but it's not my codebase, so it's going to take time to figure out how to improve it
2024-08-30 17:00:24 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I'm sure there's a good reason, but why aren't we just processing it as if it was EVERYTHING and then just subtracting the stuff that's in ELN *cough* core *cough* from the total result?
2024-08-30 17:00:27 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> besides this kind of tooling work isn't really my specialty
2024-08-30 17:00:46 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> runtime and build deps are handled separately
2024-08-30 17:00:48 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I mean, it's not efficient, but it might be effective
2024-08-30 17:00:54 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> i think there is still the philosophical difference i brought up at the hackfest, that cr was designed around reducing content, and extras/epel is about expanding content
2024-08-30 17:01:10 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> it's not just about reducing though
2024-08-30 17:01:32 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> but it was designed around that goal, hence the minimization name in so many places
2024-08-30 17:01:38 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Hmm, I just noticed we're over time. I can continue, but if others have places to be we can put a pin in this here.
2024-08-30 17:01:51 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> it's very good for that, but it's also quite useful in anything where dependency resolution is needed
2024-08-30 17:02:13 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> except build dependencies apparently
2024-08-30 17:02:21 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> does the cr codebase have an "owner"?
2024-08-30 17:02:45 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> it's me now, for better or for worse
2024-08-30 17:02:57 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I'm also shared owner.
2024-08-30 17:03:06 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Carl George: Builddeps work fine for primary stuff like "ELN" and "CentOS Stream"
2024-08-30 17:03:11 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> It's the "addons" that have some issues.
2024-08-30 17:03:19 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> ah, so some nuance
2024-08-30 17:04:07 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Right, which is why I was wondering if we could just take the slow-but-effective route of just processing "ELN+Extras" as a "primary" set and then just subtracting from the results the set of things in "ELN" only.
2024-08-30 17:04:45 <@salimma:fedora.im> that will help when things are in flux I guess
2024-08-30 17:05:29 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> which is pretty much all the time with ELN
2024-08-30 17:05:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the divisions between "core" and "extras" are fuzzy and shifting by design
2024-08-30 17:06:42 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> after all, I expect ELN definitions to update as content changes in released RHEL too
2024-08-30 17:09:28 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> OK, we're over time. Do we have any specific actions to call out today or shall we resume this in the #eln:fedoraproject.org channel (or at the meeting next week)?
2024-08-30 17:10:14 <@davide:cavalca.name> my only request is to write down the conclusion in the docs once we've reached consensus
2024-08-30 17:10:22 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> at next meeting please
2024-08-30 17:10:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> absolutely
2024-08-30 17:11:12 <@tdawson:fedora.im> next meeting
2024-08-30 17:12:35 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Works for me.
2024-08-30 17:12:43 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> OK, thank you for coming, everyone.
2024-08-30 17:12:46 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !endmeeting