2025-02-27 20:00:34 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !startmeeting ELN SIG 27 Feb
2025-02-27 20:00:36 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2025-02-27 20:00:34 UTC
2025-02-27 20:00:36 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'ELN SIG 27 Feb'
2025-02-27 20:00:45 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !meetingname eln
2025-02-27 20:00:47 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting Name is now eln
2025-02-27 20:00:56 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !topic Init process
2025-02-27 20:01:09 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !hi
2025-02-27 20:01:12 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Troy Dawson (tdawson)
2025-02-27 20:01:14 <@salimma:fedora.im> !hi
2025-02-27 20:01:16 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
2025-02-27 20:02:42 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2025-02-27 20:02:45 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2025-02-27 20:03:36 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> !hi
2025-02-27 20:03:38 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neil Hanlon (neil) - he / him / his
2025-02-27 20:03:40 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> g'day folks
2025-02-27 20:04:20 <@tdawson:fedora.im> g'day Neil ... and Neal
2025-02-27 20:05:41 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !topic Agenda
2025-02-27 20:06:26 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> * old business, starting with the desktop backgrounds topic
2025-02-27 20:06:26 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> * new business
2025-02-27 20:06:26 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> * open floor
2025-02-27 20:06:35 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> anything to add today?
2025-02-27 20:06:41 <@davide:cavalca.name> !hi
2025-02-27 20:06:44 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Davide Cavalca (dcavalca) - he / him / his
2025-02-27 20:07:03 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !topic New business
2025-02-27 20:07:41 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> mhroncok filed some tickets today, anything in particular you wanted to discuss?
2025-02-27 20:08:18 <@churchyard:fedora.im> hi. I think none fo the tickets are urgent -- the discussion can continue in the tickets
2025-02-27 20:08:24 <@churchyard:fedora.im> hi. I think none of the tickets are urgent -- the discussion can continue in the tickets
2025-02-27 20:08:43 <@churchyard:fedora.im> I was going to leave the computer now anyway :)
2025-02-27 20:08:48 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> ok np
2025-02-27 20:08:52 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !link https://github.com/fedora-eln/eln/issues/226
2025-02-27 20:09:06 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !link https://github.com/fedora-eln/eln/issues/228
2025-02-27 20:09:15 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !link https://github.com/fedora-eln/eln/issues/229
2025-02-27 20:10:33 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> 226 is a known issue (at least to me!), but not much we can do about it right now
2025-02-27 20:11:48 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> 228 does need a two-part fix, so that gnome-kiosk-search-appliance is properly accounted for in CR but without pulling in the firefox RPM
2025-02-27 20:12:21 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> which they didn't want for 10, ended up having to do anyway, but really don't want in 11
2025-02-27 20:13:13 <@salimma:fedora.im> hmm that's weird
2025-02-27 20:13:53 <@salimma:fedora.im> this is something I packaged because Chef still needs the old compat API
2025-02-27 20:14:05 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Talking about gnome-kiosk ... anyway we can have it stop using X ?
2025-02-27 20:14:13 <@tdawson:fedora.im> For ELN at least?
2025-02-27 20:14:36 <@salimma:fedora.im> I guess the compat package is published internally at RH and used by some appstream packages, but not pushed out to the repos?
2025-02-27 20:14:51 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> the goal was to not have libxcrypt-compat in 10, but because VDDK still needs it, it was kept in 10, still not wanted for 11 though
2025-02-27 20:15:36 <@salimma:fedora.im> there's probably a mechanism to exclude it right? as long as it still shows up in the eln extras workload it's fine
2025-02-27 20:15:58 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Sorry, I'll file an issue in the right area and leave this out of this meeting.
2025-02-27 20:16:10 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> we can't exclude it from ELN without FTI'ing virt-v2v
2025-02-27 20:16:26 <@salimma:fedora.im> it doesn't hurt to keep it there I guess
2025-02-27 20:17:14 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> yeah it's a tricky one, but either way libxcrypt-epel (the SRPM) won't be allowed to branch into c11s
2025-02-27 20:18:31 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> 229 is a bigger question about how to handle HA
2025-02-27 20:19:04 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> most of HA is currently placeholders in ELN workloads, but they're being built anyway because they are fully listed in ELN Extras workloads
2025-02-27 20:19:07 <@salimma:fedora.im> sigh... HA
2025-02-27 20:19:13 <@tdawson:fedora.im> If we try to handle HA, would we also do all of the other "non-standard" RHEL repos?
2025-02-27 20:19:32 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> technically we already do, but they're mostly empty
2025-02-27 20:19:49 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> firefox should be going back to appstream anyway
2025-02-27 20:19:59 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it doesn't belong on extras since it's being shipped
2025-02-27 20:20:12 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Could we do a view just for them?
2025-02-27 20:20:14 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> for 10, but it is still unwanted (in RPM form) for 11
2025-02-27 20:20:26 <@tdawson:fedora.im> And addon view ... because I think that's what they are.
2025-02-27 20:20:46 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Or do we want them in ELN proper?
2025-02-27 20:21:08 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> ff/tb *are* an addon in CR, but they're being pulled into non-Extras repos because of the dependency
2025-02-27 20:23:45 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Rephrased: There's a package in ELN that has an incorrect dependency that happens to be satisfied by a package in EPEL. Due to the way the repos are resolved, this leads to FF/TB being pulled into the official repos, when it should not be.
2025-02-27 20:24:13 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Rephrased: There's a package in ELN that has an incorrect dependency that happens to be satisfied by a package in ELN Extras. Due to the way the repos are resolved, this leads to FF/TB being pulled into the official repos, when it should not be.
2025-02-27 20:24:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the package dependency isn't wrong
2025-02-27 20:24:37 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> that, and that package is not listed in CR so neither is firefox (which is good), but it's messy
2025-02-27 20:24:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it _does_ actually depend on firefox
2025-02-27 20:24:46 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> not in RHEL 10 it doesn't
2025-02-27 20:24:56 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> there the flatpak is used
2025-02-27 20:24:59 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> This is a side-effect of the fact that we really shouldn't be using the same tag for both ELN and ELN Extras, but that's a whole other problem to untangle
2025-02-27 20:25:12 <@tdawson:fedora.im> But, the packages would be getting pulled in anyway, just from Fedora.  Either way, they would end of in ELN.
2025-02-27 20:25:38 <@tdawson:fedora.im> But, the packages would be getting pulled in anyway, just from Fedora.  Either way, they would end up in ELN.
2025-02-27 20:25:59 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> wrong
2025-02-27 20:26:09 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the script in the search appliance is coded to /usr/bin/firefox
2025-02-27 20:26:10 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> normally the answer would be to use the RHEL patch in ELN to avoid the dependency (and get that package listed), but we don't have a flatpak, so it would be unusable ootb
2025-02-27 20:26:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so it cannot use the flatpak even if you changed the dependency
2025-02-27 20:26:34 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> RHEL carries a patch
2025-02-27 20:26:46 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: I think you're misunderstanding: we're saying the package has a bug, not necessarily the packag*ing*
2025-02-27 20:26:55 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm saying it's not a bug
2025-02-27 20:27:13 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> as the package is right now, it is doing what it should do
2025-02-27 20:27:16 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> It's expecting a binary where one doesn't exist. That's a bug :)
2025-02-27 20:27:43 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> In this situation, the FF that's in ELN Extras is essentially a third-party package that happens to own the same binary name.
2025-02-27 20:28:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> sure, the wrong thing isn't the package though, it's how we are carving things up as it is right now
2025-02-27 20:29:17 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> The package is making an assumption about where its dependency is coming from that is wrong.
2025-02-27 20:29:42 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> this is going to go in circles if we keep going
2025-02-27 20:29:42 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> since we have a prescheduled topic for today, in the interest of time, I'll ask that anyone interested in these follow up in the tickets
2025-02-27 20:29:53 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Either that package needs to use the dependency from RHEL where it lives in RHEL, or that package needs to be removed from RHEL and made part of ELN Extras.
2025-02-27 20:30:01 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Those are the two outcomes that make sense.
2025-02-27 20:30:19 <@salimma:fedora.im> and the package built for ELN should mimic the behavior when built for RHEL, right?
2025-02-27 20:30:26 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> yes
2025-02-27 20:30:31 <@salimma:fedora.im> or at least how we want it for the /next/ RHEL
2025-02-27 20:30:41 <@salimma:fedora.im> so let's not split hairs, move on?
2025-02-27 20:30:46 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> ^^^
2025-02-27 20:30:47 <@salimma:fedora.im> so let's not split hairs, shall we move on?
2025-02-27 20:31:36 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> sorry but trying to be conscious of time
2025-02-27 20:31:47 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !topic Old business
2025-02-27 20:32:02 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !link https://github.com/fedora-eln/eln/issues/192
2025-02-27 20:32:35 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> it was decided three weeks ago that we would vote at this meeting
2025-02-27 20:32:47 <@salimma:fedora.im> I am excited to bring back Beefy
2025-02-27 20:33:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Same.
2025-02-27 20:33:52 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> The latest one with a little bit of everything is my favorite
2025-02-27 20:34:19 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> 2. the latest fNN-backgrounds package
2025-02-27 20:34:19 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> 1. the desktop-backgrounds package
2025-02-27 20:34:19 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> right now, the options are:
2025-02-27 20:34:19 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> 3. Troy's first draft, with the relish near the logo
2025-02-27 20:34:19 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> 4. Troy's second draft, without the relish
2025-02-27 20:34:19 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> 5. Troy's third draft, with all the condiments on the hotdog
2025-02-27 20:34:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> though you should add the dribbles of relish to
2025-02-27 20:34:28 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> am I missing anything
2025-02-27 20:34:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> can we add the relish to the third draft?
2025-02-27 20:35:06 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> I thought the relish was the green stripe on the hotdog?
2025-02-27 20:35:31 <@tdawson:fedora.im> It's certainly possible, if enough people want it.
2025-02-27 20:36:02 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> to be clear, add the relish *where*?
2025-02-27 20:36:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> to the logo
2025-02-27 20:37:20 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I tried adding the relish "clumps" to the hot dog, but it looked terrible.
2025-02-27 20:37:30 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Thus the green stripe.
2025-02-27 20:37:38 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> maybe to simplify this, and allow for further refinement, let's do this in multiple stages?
2025-02-27 20:38:29 <@davide:cavalca.name> I like the latest iteration on the ticket fwiw
2025-02-27 20:38:43 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> first question: which of the following overall options do we want?
2025-02-27 20:38:43 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> 1. desktop-backgrounds
2025-02-27 20:38:43 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> 2. fNN-backgrounds
2025-02-27 20:38:43 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> 3. Troy's prototype, with details TBD in next round(s) of voting
2025-02-27 20:38:51 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> any objections to that as the first question?
2025-02-27 20:39:29 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> no, good with me
2025-02-27 20:40:20 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> seeing none, I'll put the first question now
2025-02-27 20:40:30 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> please vote 1, 2, or 3
2025-02-27 20:40:34 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 3
2025-02-27 20:40:35 <@salimma:fedora.im> 3
2025-02-27 20:40:39 <@tdawson:fedora.im> 3
2025-02-27 20:41:23 <@davide:cavalca.name> 3
2025-02-27 20:41:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> (also I might want a variation of that prototype without the ELN logo for a `generic-backgrounds` package)
2025-02-27 20:42:04 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> (since we currently do not have one and that would be useful for educating people on how branding packages work)
2025-02-27 20:42:13 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> Neil Hanlon Stephen Gallagher ?
2025-02-27 20:43:25 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I abstain. I don't really like any of the choices (sorry, Troy)
2025-02-27 20:45:12 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Neither 1 or 2 give the impression of being ELN, and the specific options provided for 3 are too whimsical for me.
2025-02-27 20:45:20 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Neither 1 or 2 give me the impression of being ELN, and the specific options provided for 3 are too whimsical for me.
2025-02-27 20:46:00 <@salimma:fedora.im> we need the corporate drone variant maybe :)
2025-02-27 20:46:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> mmm
2025-02-27 20:46:45 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I don't have a problem with opinions.  If that's what you feel, that's what you feel.
2025-02-27 20:46:49 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Michel Lind UTC-6: You jest, but I kinda feel like an ELN background should be mostly... boring?
2025-02-27 20:47:06 <@salimma:fedora.im> I am half joking - I understand the concern
2025-02-27 20:47:28 <@salimma:fedora.im> we can always add a second background later, right? but I think we should ship Troy's first
2025-02-27 20:47:32 <@salimma:fedora.im> majority roolz
2025-02-27 20:47:44 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Right, that's why I'm abstaining, not voting against.
2025-02-27 20:47:45 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> I have no strong preferences
2025-02-27 20:47:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> you could use some kind of hive thing and use the corporate drone badge artwork
2025-02-27 20:48:01 <@salimma:fedora.im> this is already way better than the Rawhide default background... right? :)
2025-02-27 20:48:05 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I don't feel strongly enough about it to try to argue with the majority opinion.
2025-02-27 20:48:10 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> that looks like +4, -0, 2?
2025-02-27 20:48:43 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> for option 3, that is
2025-02-27 20:48:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I think so
2025-02-27 20:49:02 <@salimma:fedora.im> you didn't vote Yaakov?
2025-02-27 20:49:11 <@salimma:fedora.im> I count Neil and Stephen abstaining
2025-02-27 20:49:50 <@tdawson:fedora.im> So, I quickly made two more based on feedback. 
2025-02-27 20:50:04 <@tdawson:fedora.im> One for Conan Kudo https://tdawson.fedorapeople.org/eln/background/eln-beefy-miracle-everything-extra-relish.png
2025-02-27 20:50:07 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !agreed Troy's overall design is chosen, with details tbd
2025-02-27 20:50:19 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeeee
2025-02-27 20:50:20 <@tdawson:fedora.im> One for Stephen Gallagher https://tdawson.fedorapeople.org/eln/background/eln-plain.png
2025-02-27 20:50:49 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> my eyes want something to be present in that version
2025-02-27 20:50:55 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it's a bit empty
2025-02-27 20:51:07 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> or maybe if the ELN logo was in the dead center, it'd be better
2025-02-27 20:51:34 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> second question: relish next to the ELN logo?
2025-02-27 20:51:42 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> -1
2025-02-27 20:51:45 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> +1
2025-02-27 20:53:35 <@salimma:fedora.im> +1
2025-02-27 20:53:52 <@tdawson:fedora.im> https://tdawson.fedorapeople.org/eln/background/eln-plain-big.png
2025-02-27 20:54:39 <@davide:cavalca.name> -0 I guess, I have a weak preference for the one without the relish but I don't feel strongly either way
2025-02-27 20:55:13 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> I thought everyone felt strongly about the relish one way or the other /jk
2025-02-27 20:55:22 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Oh ... I just noticed that those plain ones were exported wrong ... just a second.
2025-02-27 20:56:10 <@salimma:fedora.im> the big one is nicer I think
2025-02-27 20:57:08 <@tdawson:fedora.im> https://tdawson.fedorapeople.org/eln/background/eln-plain-big.png
2025-02-27 20:57:11 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> right now we're at +2, -1, 1 for the relish
2025-02-27 20:57:34 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I'm at a -1 for the relish.  I like it plain.
2025-02-27 20:58:07 <@salimma:fedora.im> let me double check the images again
2025-02-27 20:58:21 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Stephen Gallagher: What do you think of the last plain one I put up? 
2025-02-27 20:58:27 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> and we're just about at time
2025-02-27 20:58:52 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> can we decide on the relish today and continue next week?
2025-02-27 20:58:55 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Troy Dawson: I like it more than the other options.
2025-02-27 20:59:16 <@salimma:fedora.im> the color seems duplicate with the bottles so I guess I'll change my mind and vote no on relish
2025-02-27 20:59:19 <@salimma:fedora.im> sorry Neal
2025-02-27 20:59:45 <@salimma:fedora.im> ps Troy I do like ketchup on my hot dogs... sowwy
2025-02-27 20:59:52 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !agreed there should be no "spilled" relish next to the ELN logo
2025-02-27 20:59:53 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> I'm again +0, sorry 😕
2025-02-27 21:00:10 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> I like all condiments!
2025-02-27 21:00:12 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> we're at time, so we'll have to carry this over to next week
2025-02-27 21:00:41 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> Troy Dawson can you revise your options based on today's discussion and update the ticket?
2025-02-27 21:01:13 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !info further decisions to be made at the next meeting
2025-02-27 21:01:15 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Sorry, got the wrong line.  Yes, I'll do that.
2025-02-27 21:01:26 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !topic Open Floor
2025-02-27 21:01:33 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> we're already over time, anything urgent?
2025-02-27 21:02:24 <@salimma:fedora.im> nothing from me
2025-02-27 21:02:49 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> in that case, let's follow up in tickets and in #eln:fedoraproject.org, and we'll continue next week.  thanks everyone for your contributions!
2025-02-27 21:02:53 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !endmeeting